[Radman]

I have a friend who kept telling me that he had a new classic car, but he would not tell me what it was. Today I met him at a car show and saw his new car. It is a 1998 Buick Le Sabre type T. Yes it is a very nice car, 3.8 engine and factory loaded with upgraded suspension, gauges, and luxury options.
I told him that it is a nice car. What I did not tell him was that the voice in the back of my head said "To bad it's a Buick." I did have enough smarts to keep that comment to myself. But my ire of GM killing Pontiac and saving Buick were shouting in the back of my head.

[72projectbird]

Pontiac wasn't exactly doing anything noteworthy when they got axed.

Granted, Buick wasn't either, but their numbers made more sense for GM to keep them around.

[mgarblik]

When Pontiac got the AXE, They had the G8, V8 powered sports sedan, and the Solstice roadster and coupe. Along with the bread and butter stuff. GM brass, for whatever reason chose to end production of their high volume cars for no reason at all, the Grand Prix, Grand Am and the Bonneville. Buick on the other hand hasn't brought anything to market that an American would want to buy since the Grand National and GNX, and that was one hell of a long time ago. Not to say Buick didn't build and sell some serviceable ground transportation. But that's all it was. Pontiac was run by morons and fools for the 10 years that led up to their demise, even sucking up Bob Lutz in their whirlwind of incompetency. But though Buick may have had better worldwide numbers than Pontiac, their product since 1987 appeals to the over 80 set that generally just wants to get from point A to point B.
Cute commercials alone won't sustain a car company. Telling people your making cars for a younger demographic doesn't make it so. Oldsmobile tried it by changing to a swoopy logo that looked like a Toyota, Lexus, Mazda or whatever and telling everyone "This is not your Fathers Oldsmobile", and you can see how that worked out 6 years before Pontiac was killed . Guess nobody bothered to pay attention.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

Pontiac wasn't exactly doing anything noteworthy when they got axed.

Granted, Buick wasn't either, but their numbers made more sense for GM to keep them around.

I think you need to check your numbers.

Pontiac sold 382,949 vehicles in the USA in 2008 down 21.2% from 2007.

Buick sold a mere 154,275, down 23.5% from 2007.

Pontiac was selling 60% more vehicles and in the midst of a recession didn't lose as much volume as Buick.

Buick's top seller was the Buick Enclave with nearly 1/3 of all Buick sales for 2008. Their actual car sales were terrible.

Pontiac had the G5, G6, G8, Grand Prix, Solstice, Torrent and Vibe. There was a G6 convertible, the Solstice 2 seater and the V8 powered G8.

Buick had an over priced Chevy Traverse as their best selling model. Nothing of value would have been lost if GM had axed Buick, but we lost a convertible model and a 2 seater as a result of the decision.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by The Champ

I think you need to check your numbers.

Pontiac sold 382,949 vehicles in the USA in 2008 down 21.2% from 2007.

Buick sold a mere 154,275, down 23.5% from 2007.

Pontiac was selling 60% more vehicles and in the midst of a recession didn't lose as much volume as Buick.

Buick's top seller was the Buick Enclave with nearly 1/3 of all Buick sales for 2008. Their actual car sales were terrible.

Pontiac had the G5, G6, G8, Grand Prix, Solstice, Torrent and Vibe. There was a G6 convertible, the Solstice 2 seater and the V8 powered G8.

Buick had an over priced Chevy Traverse as their best selling model. Nothing of value would have been lost if GM had axed Buick, but we lost a convertible model and a 2 seater as a result of the decision.

Had they made the solstice bigger and 2+2 (t/a sized ) with the LS engine it would have destroyed the vette
In sales !

Or at least the size and interior of the 330 ci BMW not the Z3
BMW 330 sized solstice w a 3800 Buick or a 4.3 sized turbocharged engine or an LS would have Been an awesome platform
Maybe All wheel drive like a Cyclone or typhoon too

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

Pontiac wasn't exactly doing anything noteworthy when they got axed.

Granted, Buick wasn't either, but their numbers made more sense for GM to keep them around.

Not true! The Kappa cars were doing well, and very unique. Lots of profit, and made in the USA.
Buick only kept for 5 reasons.. Short name and.. 4 plants in China.

[ta6point6]

I think it is funny how people always point to the Goverment handout and that is the reason they will never drive a GM product again. Yet Dodge did the same thing and people do not seem to mind driving Mopars. Dont even get me started on people who drive import cars and wonder why Ford and Chevy are/had to cut passenger car production now and in the past

[400 4spd.]

Originally Posted by ta6point6

I think it is funny how people always point to the Goverment handout and that is the reason they will never drive a GM product again. Yet Dodge did the same thing and people do not seem to mind driving Mopars. Dont even get me started on people who drive import cars and wonder why Ford and Chevy are/had to cut passenger car production now and in the past

By "Dodge", I suppose you meant the parent company Chrysler during the Iaccoca era.

I'm in my mid 60's and have never owned a Chrysler product, a front wheel drive vehicle or an import brand. Not a hater of the others, just never desired one enough to buy one.

Yes, that is entirely possible.

Currently own 2 Expeditions, an Excursion, an Envoy and S10, '72 Grand Prix, '67 GTO, '67 Corvette.

The GMC Envoy and 2001 Chevy S10 (54K miles) require constant attention and repairs. The Fords are dead on reliable with many more miles.

[72projectbird]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

Not true! The Kappa cars were doing well, and very unique. Lots of profit, and made in the USA.
Buick only kept for 5 reasons.. Short name and.. 4 plants in China.

True. The Solstice and Sky were interesting little cars. I just think Pontiac backed themselves into a spot where they had to rely on a car that wasn't super practical to help save them. Everything else offered was really bland.

It sucks. I wish they were still around, but from a business perspective I understand why they kept Buick and killed Pontiac.

[66sprint6]

Saw a guy on the weekend driving a really nice '67 Chevelle. We got to chatting and he said it was the best looking car that GM made. I said "sorry, but Chevy styling is no match for Pontiac". He was not happy, but we laughed it off. As he drove off, I said "it's true, though".

[mgarblik]

One of the things that always drew me toward the Pontiac cars vs Chevy, Buick was the styling, particularly the interiors. Of course the wonderful Pontiac V-8 was under the hood, but the entire car had a completely different feel than the other divisions. That's why people chose a particular brand vs another. Line for line, A body, F body, B body, the Pontiac version always felt "right to me" Better handling, tighter steering feel, quieter interior, nicer soft materials, better seats, fewer rattles, better fit and finish, more functional, sporty dash face, instruments and controls, even in the B body. It's all a matter of taste of course. But having nothing in the dash face than two giant dials and a host of idiot lights like a Buick LeSabre vs a Bonneville does nothing for me. Having 4 color choices, Sweat sock brown, gun metal gray, Arabian sand or white as my color palate in a LeSabre, with the only interior option leather or cloth, does little to inspire. Changing the name from LeSabre to Lucerne and doing nothing else, just alienated the handful of customers they had left. Almost every Chevy I drive or ride in just screams Cheap, Cheap Cheap. With a few exceptions of course. The interior panels, dash, seats, are all glowing examples of how to take all the money out of the component, and just put enough pennies back in to make it to the end of the warranty. The interior plastics remind me of my grandson's Power Wheel car. The Chevrolet Bolt and Trax are great examples of "toy level" interiors.

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by 66sprint6

Saw a guy on the weekend driving a really nice '67 Chevelle. We got to chatting and he said it was the best looking car that GM made. I said "sorry, but Chevy styling is no match for Pontiac". He was not happy, but we laughed it off. As he drove off, I said "it's true, though".

The way I see it Chevy is a beginners car
Everyone has one in their collection at first , but Once you’ve matured you buy Pontiac’s !

Some never mature they just keep buying the same old SS camaro or Chevelles

What I do think we need to see more of is period correct day 2 cars in Pontiac land .

We’ve done the hell out of the original stuff and it’s kind of boring for non Pontiac people to go to a show because at first glance it’s all the same thing.


My opinion is Some period correct day2 stuff would help people stay interested in our brand. Not saying take apart an original car but when building one why not make it like they were actually seen on the streets.

[68 461 Bird]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

It sucks. I wish they were still around, but from a business perspective I understand why they kept Buick and killed Pontiac.

From a business perspective, domestically, I thought the best decision GM could have made would be to turn every dealership in to a "GM" dealership and bring the top sellers from each division to be sold under one roof. I never understood with the move to corporate engine programs they didn't go in this direction with the rest of it. This would have minimized dealerships closing and not have to sacrifice losing their customers with brand loyalty. Past and current unit sales would drive which models are kept and dropped.

Regarding the OP friend bringing a 98 Buick to a car show, as long as it meets the shows requirements, (1998 and older) I have no problem with it. Being a car guy, I enjoy seeing a variety of cars and years. If a car appeals to me I take a closer look, if it doesn't, like a 98 Buick, I keep walking.

[FirebirdHank]

There are still more Pontiacs in my neighborhood than Buicks. Nuff said.

[nas t eh]

Aztek

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by nas t eh

Aztek

The Aztek is a very important vehicle IMO. In a single chunk of plastic and steel in encompasses EVERYTHING that went wrong at Pontiac over a 10 year period. It is often used in college business schools and marketing classes at an example of how to do EVERYTHING wrong. When the vehicle you build ends up being the star joke in an entire episode of "American Dad cartoon", you have to know things are off the rails. My favorite quote when they came out was from Car and Driver. Concerning the styling: The car looks like a group of prisoners whittled it out of a bar of soap. High praise indeed. If not for "Breaking Bad", they wouldn't even be worth scrap value today. They ALWAYS make the top 10 worst cars of all time lists, right next to the Vega, Yugo, and other Gems.

[nas t eh]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

The Aztek is a very important vehicle IMO. In a single chunk of plastic and steel in encompasses EVERYTHING that went wrong at Pontiac over a 10 year period. It is often used in college business schools and marketing classes at an example of how to do EVERYTHING wrong. When the vehicle you build ends up being the star joke in an entire episode of "American Dad cartoon", you have to know things are off the rails. My favorite quote when they came out was from Car and Driver. Concerning the styling: The car looks like a group of prisoners whittled it out of a bar of soap. High praise indeed. If not for "Breaking Bad", they wouldn't even be worth scrap value today. They ALWAYS make the top 10 worst cars of all time lists, right next to the Vega, Yugo, and other Gems.

Can you imagine working at Pontiac during that time, If I was, I like to think I would have been smart enough to be looking for another job.

I remember the first time I saw one, thinking how far the brand had fallen.

P.S. the stying of the new HD GM pickup trucks gives me the same feeling.

[padgett]

"Maybe if they canned Buick " - too many Chinese like Buicks.

[hobbygto65]

I heard the reason they kept Buick is because its one of the favorite cars of the Chinese. Whether thats true or not I couldn't say.

[dhutton]

Originally Posted by hobbygto65

I heard the reason they kept Buick is because its one of the favorite cars of the Chinese. Whether thats true or not I couldn't say.

True….