#21  
Old 10-09-2021, 10:58 AM
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If it was plugged the lifters would have been making a good racket.

A buddy in high school rebuilt his 350 Olds and left a oil galley plug out and even while the bearings where getting some minimal amount of oil since the lifters took about 1.5 minutes of run time during breakin before they started to sound the alarm!

Some bearings did go south in that 2 minutes at 2500 rpm.
We got a hint as to how bad it was when we pulled the dip stick to check the oil level .
Some bearings where so hot that the oil cought on fire and smoke came billowing out of that dip stick tube like mad!

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1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

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Old 10-09-2021, 12:39 PM
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My current short block is hardblocked. I really thought I would need a oil cooler,remote filter,lines etc. The most common response when I asked if I needed all this was....just run it stock with a larger pan and see what happens.
So all it does is just run a little warm on extended highway runs..but nothing else. I saved myself the plumbing costs and time and possible issues.

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  #23  
Old 10-10-2021, 02:45 AM
wakesupremo wakesupremo is offline
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Thanks again everyone The factory bypass was left functional. I have more K& N filters that I used to use on the 400 engine with no issues. They are HP 1007 the same as I use on my silverado pickup. Ill swap one in and see what that does.

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Old 10-10-2021, 07:23 AM
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First pull all the plugs and get the nose up high enough to get a beam type torque wrench on the 15/16” balancer bolt and see how many ft lbs it take to get the motor to break free and spin.
Then report back as to what that number is before you load the plugs back in and fire it,

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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
  #25  
Old 10-10-2021, 09:21 AM
"QUICK-SILVER" "QUICK-SILVER" is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wakesupremo View Post
Thanks again everyone The factory bypass was left functional. I have more K& N filters that I used to use on the 400 engine with no issues. They are HP 1007 the same as I use on my silverado pickup. Ill swap one in and see what that does.
This filter has the same flow path as the other one. That's 'IN' through the small outer holes and 'OUT' through the center threaded hole. Check that your hoses are hooked up right. If reversed you'll have the same cold filter.

I'd be more worried about what caused the heating up and oil pressure loss. As in possible lack of lubrication causing too much friction and over heating the oil and that making cooling temps go up.

Clay

  #26  
Old 10-10-2021, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wakesupremo View Post
Thanks again everyone The factory bypass was left functional. I have more K& N filters that I used to use on the 400 engine with no issues. They are HP 1007 the same as I use on my silverado pickup. Ill swap one in and see what that does.

We don't want you to just swap a filter in and try it. We want to know what the issue is before you fire it again. I mentioned the lines to you in post #3. Others have given you good information as well to try.


If it were me I would do as Steve mentioned and try turn engine over with plugs out. Next I would put back the stock oil filter and housing. I would then prime the engine counter clockwise with a drill and check for oil pressure at the filter housing. I would then hook my oil pressure gauge up on the port next to the distributor. Once oil pressure is verify, I would turn engine over by hand and make sure the valve train is been oiled. I would then fire the engine after that with an oil pressure gauge still connected to top of engine. Come to think of it, this should have all been tested before initial firing. Just saying. Sorry for your bad luck.

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  #27  
Old 10-10-2021, 01:07 PM
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Forgot to mention, The oil port on the oil filter housing will tell you what pressure the oil pump is putting out, and the port on top of the block by distributor will tell you what the engine is seeing for pressure. If something were to block the oil filter the pressure from the pump will push open the bypass to supply the engine. This is on a stock oil filter housing that mounts to the block.

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68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
  #28  
Old 10-10-2021, 01:29 PM
wakesupremo wakesupremo is offline
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Thanks again all for your feedback and input. The engine builders has been over to mine today and done a few tests yes it was a simple silly fix!!!! all sorted now though hopefully. I have 60lbs at idle when cold going to 80 with a few revs. once warm it idles at 40lbs and goes to 60/65 when revved. Theres still an odd issue or two but nothing serious now. Ive road tested it and it feels FAAAAAAST.

  #29  
Old 10-10-2021, 01:36 PM
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Awesome, Nice to see you have it figured out.

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68 Firebird. IA2 block, 505 cu in, E-head, Solid roller 3650 weight. Reid TH400 4:11 gear. 29" slick.
Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
  #30  
Old 10-10-2021, 01:37 PM
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Good to hear!
But still, share with us all what the issue was please?

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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
  #31  
Old 10-11-2021, 01:45 AM
wakesupremo wakesupremo is offline
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I don't want to point the blame as I'm not that sort of person. I'm not going to run somebody down over a simple mistake, although it could have been very costly to me!!!! He had fitted the pipes the wrong way around on the filter housing. Therefore the oil was going through the bypass on the filter block only. He was very apologetic and embarrassed. Yes it should have been picked up before I drove the car but, as ive said, mistakes do happen.

  #32  
Old 10-11-2021, 05:53 AM
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Many times shop grunts get the job of doing these mondane things and the result is what you exprienced .

Luck for the shop owner dallor wise for the bypass being kept working!

__________________
Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
  #33  
Old 10-13-2021, 11:27 AM
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1969400HO 1969400HO is offline
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One thing I found Is the air in an oil line is a bad idea, period.

I Never fill oil filters then install them yet many ppl swear by it.
I DO NOT whatsoever agree w ANYONE about it!!

The air bubbles trapped in it is a Hyd-Pneu-Hyd scenario, NOT GOOD!!

One fine summer day driving down the road my boss was at he friends house a 1/2 mile away, trying to start a new engine, I passed it then stopped in t shop talk, and he was frantic looking around in "figure it out" mode.

He was a excellent machinist, Long tome successful roundy racer and master mechanic at college in town, He was top notch mechanic too!

The car a 68 Cameron built 454 with DUAL filters on firewall.

Issue they had was No oil pressure.
All new everything.
I asked the obvious Q, Did ya fill the filter???

YUP we did so "that's OK and NOT Our issue".
I said Really?

Then so said Unscrew One filter.

POP it went when AIR bled OUT.
Retighten it,

Restarted engine Oil pressure went up to the expected 60-70PSI.
All was well as they looked at me cross eyed.

DO NOT EVER fill an oil filter, it Does cause trapped AIR that can be tricky to bled OUT..

Hyd-Pneu-Hyd are not compatible!

Thats just simple mechanics 101 understanding.

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Old 10-13-2021, 12:15 PM
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I have the same oil line setup as OP with the filter located up at the core support and recently switched from AN6 to AN 12 lines. Total length of both lines is 9ft. and there is well over 1qt of oil in those lines.

With AN12 idle oil pressure (cold) measured at the block adapter is 60(ish)lbs and at the distributor is 55lbs. With the engine heat soaked pressure at block adapter is 30lbs and at distributor it's 20lbs.

I ran the AN6 lines for well over 25 years on 2 different engine builds with no oil supply related issues (might have been just lucky), now there's a little more peace of mind with the larger AN12 lines but might return back to the stock oil filter location if I can find where I stored the housing for it.

  #35  
Old 10-13-2021, 12:33 PM
78w72 78w72 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1969400HO View Post
One thing I found Is the air in an oil line is a bad idea, period.

I Never fill oil filters then install them yet many ppl swear by it.
I DO NOT whatsoever agree w ANYONE about it!!

The air bubbles trapped in it is a Hyd-Pneu-Hyd scenario, NOT GOOD!!

One fine summer day driving down the road my boss was at he friends house a 1/2 mile away, trying to start a new engine, I passed it then stopped in t shop talk, and he was frantic looking around in "figure it out" mode.

He was a excellent machinist, Long tome successful roundy racer and master mechanic at college in town, He was top notch mechanic too!

The car a 68 Cameron built 454 with DUAL filters on firewall.

Issue they had was No oil pressure.
All new everything.
I asked the obvious Q, Did ya fill the filter???

YUP we did so "that's OK and NOT Our issue".
I said Really?

Then so said Unscrew One filter.

POP it went when AIR bled OUT.
Retighten it,

Restarted engine Oil pressure went up to the expected 60-70PSI.
All was well as they looked at me cross eyed.

DO NOT EVER fill an oil filter, it Does cause trapped AIR that can be tricky to bled OUT..

Hyd-Pneu-Hyd are not compatible!

Thats just simple mechanics 101 understanding.
what exactly is "hyd-pneu-hyd?

myself & millions of others have been pre-filling filters for decades & never had any situation like you describe... maybe AIR can get trapped in long runs of oil lines like for these remote mount filter set ups, but there is ZERO chance of AIR getting Caught in an OIL filter & Causing this hyd- pneu-hyd Scenario you spEak Of.

it may be debatable if filling filters helps any, but my experience that is easily shown is that when changing oil & using a dry filter, on start up you can clearly hear clatter for a second or so while the oil is filling the filter, when filling the filter manually there is no clatter noise at all. why, because the oil doesnt have a gap of flow due to the dry filter being filled. you can also usually see the gauge not show PSI as fast compared to a pre-filled filter.


Last edited by 78w72; 10-13-2021 at 01:25 PM.
  #36  
Old 10-13-2021, 04:07 PM
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Its a common scenario the two different mediums HYD- Hydraulics, Pneu- pneumatics, cannot coincide in their function causing "air lock" bubbles.

Oil with air trapped in between it with more oil caused this "air lock" scenario.

My scenario was as is ALL pre-filed filters, an "oil-air-oil-air-oil" sequence with partial filled filter, causing several air traps that create a negative waterline hammer affect, that make oil passage almost impossible due to compression sponge like phenomena.

Its a well known thing and plenty of industries have "bleed off valving" to accommodate this thing.


Filling filters to prevent oil starvation is really on old wives tale logic that doesn't hold true.

bathed engines already have sufficient oil on bearing and new engines are soaking it it when assembled.
2-3 seconds, oil being maybe 4% compressible literally slams thru oil systems filling voids that are passable, in seconds max.

There is no need to pre fill, the oiling pump system does its job as designed!!!

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Old 10-13-2021, 04:20 PM
78w72 78w72 is offline
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apparently you missed the part where i explained what can & does happen with dry filters, experienced it multiple times myself. not saying it causes catastrophic damage but you can clearly hear the clatter from the lifters/rockers, its not bearings. the filter takes 3/4 to 1 full qt of oil to fill & that brief break in oil flow can cause top end parts to run dry for a moment... dry filters are not a old wives tale.

the air in a filter whether dry or partially filled bleeds out instantly when oil is pushed in to it, it doesnt lock up anything since the outlet goes into the passages & crankcase that is not sealed on these engines. your scenario may be possible in dual remote filters with any given length of hose & the distribution between 2 filters... but on a factory pontiac v8 set up i dont see how air can get trapped in the filter. it has never happened to me in the 100+ oil/filter changes ive done & ive never heard of that happening to anyone else i know personally (lots of mechanic friends) or seen it posted on a car forum over the last ~15-20 years.


Last edited by 78w72; 10-13-2021 at 05:03 PM.
  #38  
Old 10-13-2021, 04:55 PM
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i'll keep filling mine thank you as the crankcase pressure is bled to the atmosphere.. via valve cover breather or PVC valve
...can't see "air compression" happening with an engine oil system

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  #39  
Old 10-13-2021, 06:48 PM
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Ive honestly never experienced a lag of oiling puppy related issue unless running an engine with extended time and no oil pumping then things collapsed yes but not on a small momentary filter type changeout.
Air in a hydraulic system is a factor that causes interruptive designed for fluids materials, yet the common occurrence of air trapped is what the issue is crated by introducing trapped air between fluids by filling filters.
Oil-air-oil-air-oil is a natural barrier not a conduit condition.

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Old 10-13-2021, 07:45 PM
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I Never fill oil filters then install them yet many ppl swear by it.
I DO NOT whatsoever agree w ANYONE about it!!

You don't make any sense period.

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Best so far 10.12@133 mph. 1.43 60 ft.
76 Trans am, TKX .81 o/d, 3.73 Moser rearend,
468 with KRE D-ports, Doug headers, 3" Exh.
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