[lslapshot]

Hey guys. With all this talk from GTO buyer selling an alleged fake GTO, what are some of the identification markers other than the 242 I.D. on the VIN tag? I see this posting: (A seller who, when researching the car himself, knows enough to decode a data plate, check for spotwelds on the tail panel, emblem holes in the fenders, etc., but doesn't bother (or know to) check the VIN.)I"m not too sure about the spotweld thing or the fender holes? Can someone clarify this for me please? I just purchased a 67 Conv. and I'm very curious now. The VIN matches everything from PHS but as we can see from GTO Buyer, the tag can be from another car. Thanks...Lou

[lslapshot]

Hey guys. With all this talk from GTO buyer selling an alleged fake GTO, what are some of the identification markers other than the 242 I.D. on the VIN tag? I see this posting: (A seller who, when researching the car himself, knows enough to decode a data plate, check for spotwelds on the tail panel, emblem holes in the fenders, etc., but doesn't bother (or know to) check the VIN.)I"m not too sure about the spotweld thing or the fender holes? Can someone clarify this for me please? I just purchased a 67 Conv. and I'm very curious now. The VIN matches everything from PHS but as we can see from GTO Buyer, the tag can be from another car. Thanks...Lou

[Jerry H.]

Does the vin match the title? Does the phs match the vin on the door jamb? Does all the phs documentation match the acutal options and colors on the car? If everything matches, your probably ok.

[PonchoV8]

Very good points Islap. Data plates can always be reproduced. That service has been offered for a long time. They aren't like a VIN plate. Some differences in GTO and Tempest or LeMans have badging on the quarter where the GTO might not. 68 lemans has lemans on the rear 1/4. 68 GTO doesn't, etc.

[gtoric]

At times this can be a VERY scary hobby to be involved in, especially as the values, and potential for profit, escalates on these old automobiles. The higher the values, the higher the potential gain to be made from fraud. Anyone new to this hobby (pastime, business?) has to be cautious and arm themselves with all the knowledge that they can gather. Unfortunately, the best source of knowledge is experience. The best sources of experience is on forums like this one, or within the ranks of owner/enthusiast groups like the POCI or GTOAA.

Given enough resources and talent, any part of any car, including the V.I.N. tag and its special rivets, can be recreated. And, as GTO_buyer has found out, just sending the V.I.N. to PHS does not guarantee that your car possesses the correct tag in the first place. PHS just returns paperwork based on the info given by the requester. Unless the microfilm information is missing from the PHS files, or the V.I.N. is fraudulent (in which case, the file entry may not have existed in the first place), the paperwork from PHS will always match the V.I.N. However the PHS documents may not match the Fisher data tag. In that instance, the owner/buyer does have something to worry about. Depending on the Fisher plant that your car was built at, the information on the data tag will reveal some option info. A good book, like the GTOAA's new Illustrated Identification Guide (carried by our host PY), will help you out immensely when trying to decipher the tags.

Back to your question, the main areas of your concern will be with the physical clues that your car's body can reveal. Cloneing a GTO from a Tempest or Tempest Custom is much easier than attempting the clone from a Le Mans. In both instances the hoods would have to be changed out, but with the Le Mans, the vertical hash mark indents in the front of the rear quarters would have to be eliminated/filled. You can sometimes check For their presence by looking down the quarter window opening with a flash light, but if you have tight new window sweeps, you may have to remove the rear seat, interior quarter trim panel and a closeout panel to view this area inside the quarter. Also the holes for the "Le Mans" lettering on the rear of the quarters would have to be filled (easily accessed from inside the trunk compartment).

In all three of the lower model lines, the tail light panel would have to be changed. The quality of the replacement, i.e. the ability to reproduce the authentic factory spot weld and the original construction apearance on the replacement panel, would be important for an undetectible clone.

Attachment of lower rocker panel moldings is another area to look at. The Tempest did not feature the rear quarter lower extension moldings either; look at how those moldings are attached. Are the extensions using the original GTO type resistance welded studs, or are the clips attached to the panel with screws or rivets?

If front fenders were reused, do they have any extra filled-in holes that might indicate that they came from a T/TC/LM? All three of those models have engine indicator badges located at the front of the fenders, right behind the headlight bezels. And the model identifier badges are located at the rear of the fenders. All of the model badges require a different number of holes than the GTO. Any hole can be brazed closed and smoothed over. Only after stripping the panel of paint (and in some cases, plastic filler) can these filled holes be detected. Obviously,the least destructive way to pursue that investigation is from the inside of the panel. Does the orignial ALPO finish of the panel interior appear to be disturbed in these areas?

The doors of the T/TC/LM do not have lower moldings like the GTO, but drilling new holes is not as traceable as detecting filled holes. The shape of the holes is significant though. Some of them are square.

The T/TC trunk lid does not have an identifier badge, therefore, the underside structure of its lid does not feature the indented area to attach the speed nuts to the studs of a Le Mans or GTO badge.

The header panel (between the front bumper and the hood) of the T/TC/LM has the Pontiac letters on the L.H. side; the GTO does not. This is a common accident repair part though, so the presence of this part is not a real concern. In fact the presence of any single panel anomaly, or an entire side, may only mean the the car has seen accident damage in its past. If all panels appear to be modified, that may mean something more ominous.

One of the best ways to protect yourself in the purchase of any car that you are not familiar with is to enlist the aid of a more knowledgeable friend. Two pairs of eyes are always better than one pair, especially when the second pair is an uninvolved party.

[400 4spd.]

Excellent response, gtoric!

[Peter Serio]

It all boils down to the fact that too many people (some armed with money,
some not) are chasing too few cars. By that I am talking about the premium
quality cars, this can be condition (a "low miles original") or a very
scarce car, such as an RA 4 equipped convertible or '69-'70 Trans Am or
Firebird. I hate to use the word "rare" anymore, seems everything you see
no listed on ebay is "rare."

I saw a pretty rusty OHC 6 One bbl, '67 tempest post coupe listed as rare a
couple weeks ago.


The highest demand early cars are 4 speed cars or any Tri-power convertible.
It is easy to fake a car like this, & may pass to some people. I agree, arm
yourself with all of the available information that you can. If you do not
know about what you are trying to purchase seek someone out who does. Even
if you have to pay them for their time, a $150 or $200 consulting fee may
help to save you from a $30,000 "mistake."


The GTO, in it's day was widely promoted. Making the desire to own one; for
many people strong today. The reality of the available cars are there are
very few "premium" or untouched examples available anylonger. Especially of
the 64 to 67 vintage.

It is difficult to believe but these cars when thru a time period when you
could not hardly give away a gas gulping '65 or 66 GTO. In the 1973-74 time
frame, a friend of mine bought several what you would call real nice
examples in the $500 to 1,000 price range.

He took photographs of them before he sold them & these were all cars that
would easily fetch $20,000 or more today on ebay, in the same identical
condition.

To store & maintain an old car over a long stretch of time is no easy task.

Coupled to the fact that a GTO attracts all kinds of attention if you take
it for a drive today. Sometimes all the attention makes many "nice" old GTOs
not real good everyday drivers. Something you might need to consider before
thinking about dropping $30,000 or more on a mint looking restored weekend
cruiser.