[Safari Larry]

Pontiac used reverse-flow cooling in engines from 1955-59. Why did Pontiac abandon reverse-flow cooling in 1960??? For an explanation of the cooling methods, see this link. At the end of the article are some theories as to why Pontiac abandoned reverse flow cooling.

See this thread for a 2008 discussion of this topic.

A leading theory was that there were problems with the "water distributing" tubes and resulting warranty problems. A new member, Don, has experiences with the tubes clogging up in a 1959 345hp engine -- which provides evidence to that theory. Perhaps we can entice Don to tell his story here.

[poison heart]

I thought the problem was it was actually too efficient and ran the cars too cold up north and the cars never really warmed up

[U47]

Hi Larry,

First let me give you a little background on the 59 Cat. The car was ordered in Dec. 1958 or very first part of Jan. 1959, but was delivered in Jan. 1959. The car was built in Detroit and shipped to A.E. England Pontiac in Hollywood Ca. The car was ordered as a 2137 (hardtop sport coupe) body paint was sunset glow ( Bonneville- Star Chief only color) with Tri tone Blue combination interior the same as a Bonneville with the exception of the aluminum bright trim that goes behind the gauge cluster and all the way across the middle of the dash,& the assist grab bar and the padded dash. The rest of the interior was just like a Bonneville including door pannels and dome light configuration. The reason my dad did not want a padded dash was because my uncle (on my mom's side of family all Ford) had a 1957 Fairlane 500 with a padded dash that not only cracked, but sagged in the middle.
The engine was a 420 "A" tri-power (345 HP) with a heavy duty Super Hydramatic and a 3.08 safety track three link rear end. It should also be mentioned that my dad was very adamant that no tri-power emblems were to be installed for two reasons 1. the car looked better without it and 2. the guy next to you thought it was a bread & butter Catalina. The car was going to be ordered with heavy duty brakes, however heavy duty brake cars came with 15" wheels and so you could not order deluxe hubcaps so the car was ordered without. I can remember just like yesterday the day we went to pick the car up. It was a Friday night and we drove down to the dealer in our 1950 Chieftain ( Silver "8" Streak )4speed hydro- Wellington Green (it was a beauty and very well cared for). The new car was parked down in the service garage below the showroom and my dad begain the walk around with the salesman. The first thing that went wrong was the car had deluxe wheel covers. My dad thought that deluxe meant the spinner type, but the spinners were super deluxe.....so we switched with a Bonneville parked nearby. Everything seemed to be going well until we opened the trunk. A look in the trunk made my dad furious. What he saw was a solid lifter cam and lifters in a couple of boxes. The saleman tried to explain that Pontiac would not sell the car with a warranty with a solid lifter cam. To this my dad said that he was going to pick the car up on Monday and the cam had better be in it. That is how it went down and we picked it up on Monday night.
My dad started drag racing the car I think as a "A" stock automatic and it would right out of the box at high 14 to 14.70. This was with 8.50's tires in the rear. Slicks wre not allowed in stock classes at the time. When the car had about 25,000 miles on the clock it burnt a exhaust valve. One of the kids I went to school with had a father who was a mechanic that looked after our cars. During the tear down of the top end the tubes for the water injection were taken out of the heads as they were all gummed up so they and all the exhaust valves were replaced and new cuts were made to the intake valves and the seats. The same thing happened again at about 40- 45,000 miles but this time the tubes were even worse because they came out in pieces. Later on I started driving the car in a sort of practice type of prep. The next year I turned 14 and got at first a IHRA license at Lyons drag strip. By the time I got my regular drivers license at 16 the car burnt a valve again this time the car had about 70,000 miles. The same old story with the water injection to the heads. My dad was getting pretty pissed by this time. Our mechanic friend suggested switch to a 1960 four bolt block and some big valve heads he could get his hands on. The switch was made and with (now legal) slicks the car became a consistant 13.90- 13.95 @ 101-102mph and also a great street sleeper. I even had 14x7 wheels made up and painted sunset glow to use with 7" white wall slicks and with the spinner super deluxe hub caps it made a perfect friday night or saturday night special. With three rear ends a 3.08 for going to school and a 3.90 @ 4.10 for street or drag racing. I got pretty good at changing pumkins after school. By this time the car was running in F/SA.
I sold the car in Dec. 1968 and even with 96,000 miles it still ran 13.90's 101-102 and never had a problem with the equa-flow heads. In 1978 I decided to track the car down and try to buy it to restore, but I had missed it by three months as it had gone to the grinder.

Don

[wytnyt]

good article
like proven many times
when something is made that works well,,,its time to change it

[U47]

Larry, that note was from a "E" mail I sent you last year, Since then I got curious about those tubes and while I was looking through some old school books and I happened across a cutaway of a 268 flathead eight. As mentioned somewhere in this thread that Pontiac used these tubes in flatheads. My dad had a 40 pontiac and the 50 pontiac and because we were both car guys I know he would have told me if he had any trouble with the tubes. I wonder if any of the guys in POCI or guys that come on this site that have rebuilt these engines have had to replace them??

Don

[59safaricat]

A couple of years ago, I was the first to tear down the 389 in my wagon since it was assembled at the factory. I pulled the tubes out of the head and they are in perfect condition without a hint of corrosion. They were also as clean as a whistle. My grandfather was very adamant about changing the oil every 3K miles, but beyond that, he drove the cars and trucks until something broke down. The only time the coolant got changed in any of his vehicles was when there was an issue that called for draining the entire system. I know his '72 International Harvester truck had coolant that was nearly 20 years old.

I'm willing to bet if the coolant is changed every 2 years using a 50/50 mixture of coolant and DISTILLED water, there wouldn't be any issues with the reverse flow cooling systems......PERIOD!

U47, wont hijack the thread but you posted: getting an IHRA license at -Lyons- but
did you maybe mean the famous LIONS strip in Wilmington Ca?? Sent you a PM.

[Charlie Jones]

Originally Posted by U47

Larry, that note was from a "E" mail I sent you last year, Since then I got curious about those tubes and while I was looking through some old school books and I happened across a cutaway of a 268 flathead eight. As mentioned somewhere in this thread that Pontiac used these tubes in flatheads. My dad had a 40 pontiac and the 50 pontiac and because we were both car guys I know he would have told me if he had any trouble with the tubes. I wonder if any of the guys in POCI or guys that come on this site that have rebuilt these engines have had to replace them??

Don

I have rebuilt three "flathead" Pontiacs and replaced the water distribution tube every time.
When I rebuilt the first engine, I was advised by my machinist that I should replace the tube. He helped me remove the tube before he "hot tanked" the block. It came out in pieces as it was so badly corroded. This car had an overheating problem before the rebuild and with the new tube it was gone.
I always recommend replacing the water tube when rebuilding these engines. Or when overheating problems cannot be solved by replacing a thermostat or cleaning the radiator.

[Safari Larry]

Poison, you have yet another theory -- but I don't' buy it. If the engine ran too cool, wouldn't they just use a hotter thermostat rather than redesign the cooling system to make it less effecient? The problem is that there have been multiple reasons given for the change but none has been substantiated.

I now believe that the reason was because of failing water distribution tubes and resulting warranty repairs. Here's the evidence.

John Sawruk said "I was told at work that the water tubes both rusted out & plugged up." John worked as a tester, engine designer, executive for PMD, and Pontiac Historian.

Jim Hand's book says "Indications are that warranty problems concerning the distribution tubes promped the change".

A couple of years ago, wikipedia said "All Pontiac V8s from 1955 to 1959 were reverse cooled, known as the "gusher" cooling system. It was plagued with corrosion issues and was removed from the design for the 1960 model year due to warranty returns.” However the wikipedia article now says "All Pontiac V8s from 1955 to 1959 were reverse cooled, known as the "gusher" cooling system. It was removed from the design for the 1960 model year due to the fact that pontiac needed to move the generator and the power steering pump from atop the front of the engine down to the front of the heads due to the hoodline getting lower." That's just not true. The generator and power steering pump were moved to the side of the engine in '59 (reverse flow) to allow for a lower hood and were not moved to the front of the heads in '60.

Until Don came along, I couldn't find anyone that had the problems with the water tubes back in the day. With Don's experience and now with Charlie Jone's recent post about replacing the tubes, I'm convinced, they dropped reverse flow because of problems with the distributing tubes in the heads. They would clog up and block cooling water to the valves. I have a set of '56 heads and can't remove the tubes apparently because of rust build up.

Charlie, good idea to replace the tubes -- but reproductions aren't made for the V8 engines and they are difficult to find.

Regarding 59safaricat's observation that with proper maintenance, the tubes in the heads might last a long time... makes sense. I read that Pontiac began using Permanent Antifreeze in 1960.

Don, thanks for posting your story. I remember the story from your email and I'm sure others enjoyed it as much as I. Great to have you on the forum where you can enlighten us with your knowledge and entertain us with your stories.

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

... See this thread for a 2008 discussion of this topic...

As I stated in that old thread (post#60), I never had a problem with the water distribution tubes in the early engines. I can't remember about '57, but all of the '58/59 tubes I've had were made of a good stainless alloy- so if corrosion problems did exist prior to '58, they were certainly solved by '59. I also never found any clogged up, even though I don't routinely change coolant in any of my engines.

So... I stand by my 'guess' from 2008- that for 1960 PMD decided that the benefits of reverse-cooling were not really necessary any longer, since without it-
1) Valve seat life proved to be satisfactory.
2) Sludge was much less prevalent with the wide usage of detergent oils (in 1955 not many motorists were sold on the idea).

[badlefthand]

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

As I stated in that old thread (post#60), I never had a problem with the water distribution tubes in the early engines.

So... I stand by my 'guess' from 2008- that for 1960 PMD decided that the benefits of reverse-cooling were not really necessary any longer, since without it-
1) Valve seat life proved to be satisfactory.
2) Sludge was much less prevalent with the wide usage of detergent oils (in 1955 not many motorists were sold on the idea).

Got to agree with Jack no trouble with tubes.As far as sludge before detergent oil some of the engines we pulled apart were so sludged up you would wonder how they run. Common practice was change oil from to 30 wt in spring to 10 wt in fall that was it. Most were built in middle 50s etc: Knowledge of engines back than was really limited and most drove a car until something went wrong and that was the big problem. I had a choice of 59,60,and 61 (got all three)engine for my street rod.Choose the 60 because of ease of accessory install, 59 with reverse flow was a pita to work with the way accessory's were installed.Trashed an engine one time because one of those short hoses on water pump blew. Gauges were not that dependable back than, lots of time first sign of overheat was steam.Just my 2 cents but I drove them. Really liked the 59 Bonne.

[59safaricat]

Engine sludge was the reason for the frame off restoration of my wagon. After waking it up from its 25 year nap, there was a hint of blue smoke constantly coming out the tailpipe. Eh, probably valve seals. No problem. Pulled the valve cover......holy freakin sludge! Time to pull the motor. Found an old guy that really knew his way around the 4 speed hydro. Well, better get that rebuilt before he croaks. Suspension totally shot, with a half turn of play in the steering wheel. Well, we all know where that eventually leads to.....

Both grandparents always took short trips everywhere (grandma still does, gramps died in '01) on a daily basis. I swear they went to the grocery store just about everyday. Couple that with Penzoil that gramps swore by back when it was loaded with paraffin. Well, I should have saw that coming when I pulled the valve cover.

So....the wagon pretty much gets a frame off resto over $2.00 worth of valve seals

[Pontirag]

i just pulled a 58 GMC v8 apart and found those tubes made of stainless steel in good shape and not clogged. alot of rust thru the rest of the motor though... I believe the gusher system was replaced in part because the cooling system while serving it intended purpose was not compatable with the evolving emmissions standards that were comming on line as a result of the smog issues in places like denver and LA. Also the servicing of these systems in and out of warrenty were a PITA,

[hgerhardt]

I doubt very much it went away because of emissions regulations. Chevy LT1's from '92-'97 had reverse flow as well, but interestingly, GM went back to "conventional" cooling in the new LS1.

But what's with the stainless steel tubes that Pontirag found in that GMC? Was that a factory deal? Maybe it was a GMC truck-motor-only thing to increase durability, like GM often used 4-bolt blocks in trucks?

Heinrich Gerhardt

[poison heart]

No, they all had the tubes

[Bill Hanlon]

The one tube (other than the two in my truck) I have came from a rebuilt head from a '58 passenger car. It is stainless.

[quicksilver97ta]

FWIW I remember reading threads about why chevy switched back and I think the concensus was a combination of the bean counters and service issues. Service issues being that the reverse cooling can be time consuming even tricky to properly bleed the system, and if you don't engine damage will occur. And take my word for it, it's not like topping off the radiator after the stat open up like on a traditional cooling system.
There are LS1 kits to convert to reverse cooling so it's not uncommon to do so. Of course the advantages are that you can run alot higher compression especially since the heads are aluminum. My LT1 is 12.5:1 and runs fine on pump gas.

[hgerhardt]

Originally Posted by poison heart

No, they all had the tubes

Of course they all had tubes. My question was, it seems that some tubes were stainless and some not. Don mentioned that his '59's tubes rotted away every 20K miles. That indicates to me that his were not stainless.

Somebody ought to research if the GMC's indeed got stainless tubes and passenger cars did not. You'd think there would be a part number difference if that was the case. Bill Hanlon says he has a rebuilt '58 passenger car head with a stainless tube... I wonder if that's a GMC part in there.

[Pontirag]

The smog that was a problem through the 40's and 50's was caused by the emmissions typical of engines that run in a cooler temperature range. If the gusher system cooled "Too well" enspecially the exhuaste side where the gusher system focused its advantages there is a plausable possibility that emmissions has some influence on the decision.

increased compression ratio's and a change in the cooling system plus emmission equipment like pcv valves were designed to overcome these problems. The gusher system itself was a proven and effective design but caused a change down stream so to speak that resulted is certain types of smog that became appearent in certain areas under certain conditions over time. It was a good design warrenty claims aside, but times and expectations changed and so did the development of emmision systems.

Higher compression ratios cause its own different polution problems that caused the companies to go back to lower compression ratio's because the polution emitted from engines under those conditions were more easy to manage in terms of exuaste polution management. management in terms of legislation, not maintenance or owner expectations.

emmisions played a small part enitially but none the less there it is,

it seems to me that befor the 40's stainless was not used because it was still an exotic metal not in general use on a massive scal such as the automotive industry and not well understood. Brass worked well as long as the system was maintained and was easily replacable/available. Thru the war and beyond the Korean war the metal was in heavy demand for the military (remember the chrome bumpers) and as such still not available for large scale consumption in the auto industry where brass continued to be servicable. The metals industry ramped up stainless steel production for the military and beyond that the aviation industry. but buy the mid to late fifties demand tapered off and some claim led to a general economic ressession. That resulted in an exess manufacturing capacity in that sector and a serch for new uses/markets, thus stainless was more likely to appear in production vehicles by the late fifties. partly because it became available, partly because it became cheaper and partly because its advatages in terms of reliability (read warrenty) out weighed its initial cost.

Does anybody know if the NORS industry supplied stainless as well or did the continue to supply brass tubes? That could explain why some vehicles has brass tubes so late in the decade and into the sixties.

[PRC]

Originally Posted by quicksilver97ta

Service issues being that the reverse cooling can be time consuming even tricky to properly bleed the system, and if you don't engine damage will occur. And take my word for it, it's not like topping off the radiator after the stat open up like on a traditional cooling system..

What needs to be done to properly bleed the system? I should probably know this before I change coolant in my '59 engine. I did not realize that there was anything I had to do differently than when servicing a car without reverse cooling.