[md1twal3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dwight Crawford:
.

I hope this long post will clear up some of the issues here.

In the 1980's I was collecting Pontiacs and found several, (7 as I recall) in an old salvage yard. I bought them all. Most of them were just rollers with no motors or transmission. Some had titles some didn't but I got a Bill of Sale for all of them. One in particular was interesting as the vin had been removed but the trim tag was still there. The body had no dum-dum and the battery had been relocated in the trunk. The body has some rust especially around the rear wheel openings. This had been caused by using a "Bleach Box" to do burn outs. I started sanding on the car and noticed that it had racing stripes down the hood, roof, and trunk. About the same time I saw a advertisement that a rare Pontiac was being offered for sale in the immediate area. I viewed the car for sale and took photographs. The dealer said the car had just been sold and was going up north to a collector. I returned home and contacted National Auto Theft Bureau and requested that they come to my home and pull the "hidden number" off the frame and document it. They came and pulled the number and I told them about the "fake" that had been sold. They went immediately to the owner of the "fake" and asked to inspect the vin number on the door jam. They matched the vin number(metal tag) off the fake to the frame and car I had sitting at my house. The owner of the fake confessed and told them that he had taken a "granny car" that was rust free and an easy restoration and pulled the vin number off the real car and made a clone. He was given the opportunity to remove the vin tag which he wisely did. This option is not available now as I understand it.
I loaded the real car on a trailer and took it to MVD. They took
photographs, pulled the number off the frame again, took all my documentation and the documentatin of the NATB and put an assigned vin number on the door jam. They put the original vin number on the car. A very reputable collector bought both cars and spent a lot of money restoring the real car. The car that you see today at POCI Conventions is the real car. It is worth a lot of money and will continue to appreciate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a great example of a bad restore...an inadvertent cloning job if you will. Let me ask you this....had the person been educated on what constitues a proper restoral, and used the original frame....what do you suppose would have been the outcome? Would there have been an outcome?

Just wondering, because if a person "transfers" all VIN specific parts to donor metal (a.k.a. another metal body)....is it REALLY a clone or a fake?

[cat tracker]

TJH: So you don't think I was ignoring your "Clueless" comment.I am not completly retired. I own an Investigation Company who is licensed by the Texas Department of Public Safety. I do investigative work for the Court system, Banks, Attorneys, and individuals who had been scammed. I am very selective in what I work on. I relish working on cases where the bad guy thinks he is above the law. My posts are intented to keep our hobby honest, clean and above board. I have also noticed that my position is offensive to some folks. I know why and you do too. Dwight Crawford Sr. State License #A09797

[rzrektd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TJH:
As for body swaps, I can only say that I would MUCH rather have a rust-free original factory assembled and welded LeMans body replacing that on a rusted GTO, than to have a patchwork quilt of unknown weld quality and questionable structural integrity. Throwing huge sums of money and time at a rustbucket, creating a frankenstein monster of indeterminate or questionable quality, simply does not make sense. Thump your chests and proudly proclaim that you resurrected a rusted "original" GTO all you want, but the final result will still be a non-original, pieced-together turd. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I respect your view on vin swapping. I do not respect your view on non origional cars.... pieced together turd?? whats that? We went from discussing different viewpoints on vin swapping to insulting each other by calling each others cars crap? Excuse us out here that will not swap a vin plate and chose not/or couldn't afford to buy a perfectly straight GTO. I will thump my chest and proudly proclaim that I resurrected a rusted origional. The final result is not a pieced together turd because I value my work unlike you.

[rzrektd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by colonelreb:
From this discussion does it mean that the Ram Air IV Judge body and frame that I have (with missing VIN and data plate) is actually worth something? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VERY good question. My response, based on what I am supporting....you have no value in the a-body metal that was once tagged as a Judge. It is an A-BODY parts car.

How about one of you folks opposing my thoughts answer this one? Does he still have a GTO here????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a parts car. Vin plate has been removed and honestly I wouldn't touch it because I don't know if it is stolen.

[rzrektd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
They look nice when done, but there is a EASIER and CHEAPER way to do it RIGHT.....REBODY.

....

My point about my education (and I also referred to other people having the same or more...if YOU read my posts carefully)is that you sort of implied that in order to understand how a car is put together, you need to take it apart. My point.....many of us have been through that already, many times, and would prefer an easier, quicker and less expensive way to do it.

To clarify....I am not flinging insults, looking for an arguement, or implying that what I propose is the most correct method of restoration. I am simply implying that there is no good reason that a rebody (again...doesn't imply a VIN tag swap)should be as acceptible as a restoration with aftermarket or NOS parts...Either method should be well documented and not misrepresented... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is where you show you support VIN plate swapping. If that isn't then I appologize for your poor choice of words.

I was not implying that you need to take a car a part to know how it goes together, I was showing benifits to restoring a car in this fashion for someone with little or no experience as previously stipulated earlier in the thread. read it and you will see what I am saying.

What really amuses me is that some of you are saying that vin swapping may be a better route because it is cheaper, easier, and less expensive. If I had this thought process, it would be a good indicator to me that I am in the wrong league. Let's face. It has nothing to do with how valuable our time is. I can show how low value your time actually is, but I am not going there. If you time was valuable, I guarantee you wouldn't be entertaining this thread nor would you be concerned about spending the money for a solid car instead of a rotted out car.

[md1twal3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nathaniel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by colonelreb:
From this discussion does it mean that the Ram Air IV Judge body and frame that I have (with missing VIN and data plate) is actually worth something? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VERY good question. My response, based on what I am supporting....you have no value in the a-body metal that was once tagged as a Judge. It is an A-BODY parts car.

How about one of you folks opposing my thoughts answer this one? Does he still have a GTO here????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a parts car. Vin plate has been removed and honestly I wouldn't touch it because I don't know if it is stolen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


....So the VIN alone makes the car what it is (aka GTO or Lemans), not the rotted out sheet metal....without the VIN it is just a body....interesting. You now have me confused as to where you stand on a rebody (again...to be clear....less cuts, less welds, and one larger piece to install....not drilling rivets & installing the VIN).

If it is "a parts car"....why can't a solid "parts car" be used to replace a majority of another damaged "car". Afterall...without VIN tags...they are "just a parts car", right?

[md1twal3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nathaniel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
They look nice when done, but there is a EASIER and CHEAPER way to do it RIGHT.....REBODY.

....

My point about my education (and I also referred to other people having the same or more...if YOU read my posts carefully)is that you sort of implied that in order to understand how a car is put together, you need to take it apart. My point.....many of us have been through that already, many times, and would prefer an easier, quicker and less expensive way to do it.

To clarify....I am not flinging insults, looking for an arguement, or implying that what I propose is the most correct method of restoration. I am simply implying that there is no good reason that a rebody (again...doesn't imply a VIN tag swap)should be as acceptible as a restoration with aftermarket or NOS parts...Either method should be well documented and not misrepresented... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is where you show you support VIN plate swapping. If that isn't then I appologize for your poor choice of words.

I was not implying that you need to take a car a part to know how it goes together, I was showing benifits to restoring a car in this fashion for someone with little or no experience as previously stipulated earlier in the thread. read it and you will see what I am saying.

What really amuses me is that some of you are saying that vin swapping may be a better route because it is cheaper, easier, and less expensive. If I had this thought process, it would be a good indicator to me that I am in the wrong league. Let's face. It has nothing to do with how valuable our time is. I can show how low value your time actually is, but I am not going there. If you time was valuable, I guarantee you wouldn't be entertaining this thread nor would you be concerned about spending the money for a solid car instead of a rotted out car. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK...I don't see it....where do I show the support of swapping VINS? I said it has been done, I say rivets are available....but everything else I said points toward using a larger chunk of a solid body (or parts car, to use your describer)to restore a rusty car.

I am not argueing either...I believe the way you and many others...including myself have (or do) restore cars is acceptible. Use what ever parts you can find (legally) to put your car together...GREAT!

I am saying both methods (patching, panel replacement vs. rebody) should be acceptible. You are the one arguing that they should not.

I don't know what your thought process is, or how old you are, or what the other time-takers in your life are....but I (as well as others here, I am sure) can compete in your presumably higher league...without the time/resource dedication that you have committed. And by the way....I am not taking that away from you...I have been there, and it is something to be proud of!

Not just with car restoration, but in life, I think we can all agree that our society has a million different ways to get done what you want. We are all driven to do it sooner, better, cheaper. With that said....you know crap about how valueable my time is, so you shouldn't go there...that isn't what this is about. Time savings is only 1 benefit to restoring one way vs. another. And...in Wisconsin (rust, rust, rust), a family, school, little league, bills, a mortgage...I don't have the cash afforded to buy a solid Judge. BUT I do have cash trickling in that affords me to enjoy this hobby, just as anyone else.

I guess is what I ask is that you stop flinging insults my way about the reasoning I am supporting and stop implying judgements about the value of my time as well as my financial decisions to buy "something better", and stick to the topic.

If I truly didn't care about the quality of my car, your car, the one for sale down the street, I wouldn't be offering my unbias input about different ways that are (or should be) acceptible for a high quality restoration, and the benifits of each. That is what this topic is about, right?????????

[rzrektd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nathaniel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by colonelreb:
From this discussion does it mean that the Ram Air IV Judge body and frame that I have (with missing VIN and data plate) is actually worth something? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VERY good question. My response, based on what I am supporting....you have no value in the a-body metal that was once tagged as a Judge. It is an A-BODY parts car.

How about one of you folks opposing my thoughts answer this one? Does he still have a GTO here????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a parts car. Vin plate has been removed and honestly I wouldn't touch it because I don't know if it is stolen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


....So the VIN alone makes the car what it is (aka GTO or Lemans), not the rotted out sheet metal....without the VIN it is just a body....interesting. You now have me confused as to where you stand on a rebody (again...to be clear....less cuts, less welds, and one larger piece to install....not drilling rivets & installing the VIN).

If it is "a parts car"....why can't a solid "parts car" be used to replace a majority of another damaged "car". Afterall...without VIN tags...they are "just a parts car", right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand why you don't understand my position. Do I need to draw you a picture so you understand. It is not a point of when and why can you call a GTO a lemans or whatever body panels you replace or how much of it you replace. IT IS ILLEGAL to alter the vin tag. Because the vin is the figerprint of the car.
This is going nowhere fast nor do I understand why I am entaining these comments.

[4SLASH6]

great interesting thread! with excelant view points ,both sides,...& for the most part not an ugly he said she said mud slinging contest like many a thread in the lobby. I applaud sweets intentions to save this or any gto, bravo! you can do it, you have done it, super job I might add. I guess a question I have is, after all parts swapping is done & you have put togeather this decent fun ride. is there really a need to move that tag over to donar shell also I mean the tag itself is "not" a "desirable option"is it?? someone will buy & enjoy this great restoration for what it is. simply that, a nicely optioned muscle car with the looks and performance that said person (restorer/owner) or buyer is looking for. the only thing I see that could bother me here, would maybe be from a buyers standpoint down the road, maybe 2 or 3 owners.what I pay for this ride is irrelevent. if I find out at a later date that tag was swapped, and this information was not offered,for whatever reason, I would feel duped/taken/had....sweet, put that gto togeather & enjoy it!!it is still a gto even if that tag isnt moved

[SWEETJUDGE]

you must understand this HAS TAKEN A HARD RIGHT TURN

i live in CT check a MAP we are the smallest state, also known as the RICHEST STATE (very hard to believe but true)WE PAY THE HIGHEST TAXES, & for what???? so i can be robbed of my hard earned money. & they the police DONT DO A F-ING THING. been robbed 6 times, its the same guy robbing me he knows how to get in & get out before the DONUT MUNCHERS can even get here & the police station is literally 5 minutes away even closer. We have a corrupt MAYOR everybody has there hands in something. (IM FRUSTRATED & GETTING NO WHERE IN THIS STATE)
the average house here is $700K
i cant even afford to live in the town i grew up in

[md1twal3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nathaniel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nathaniel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by colonelreb:
From this discussion does it mean that the Ram Air IV Judge body and frame that I have (with missing VIN and data plate) is actually worth something? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VERY good question. My response, based on what I am supporting....you have no value in the a-body metal that was once tagged as a Judge. It is an A-BODY parts car.

How about one of you folks opposing my thoughts answer this one? Does he still have a GTO here????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a parts car. Vin plate has been removed and honestly I wouldn't touch it because I don't know if it is stolen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


....So the VIN alone makes the car what it is (aka GTO or Lemans), not the rotted out sheet metal....without the VIN it is just a body....interesting. You now have me confused as to where you stand on a rebody (again...to be clear....less cuts, less welds, and one larger piece to install....not drilling rivets & installing the VIN).

If it is "a parts car"....why can't a solid "parts car" be used to replace a majority of another damaged "car". Afterall...without VIN tags...they are "just a parts car", right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand why you don't understand my position. Do I need to draw you a picture so you understand. It is not a point of when and why can you call a GTO a lemans or whatever body panels you replace or how much of it you replace. IT IS ILLEGAL to alter the vin tag. Because the vin is the figerprint of the car.
This is going nowhere fast nor do I understand why I am entaining these comments. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I already understand VIN TAMPERING is illegal...but body swapping isn't. You don't disturb the VIN tag, or any of the other hidden VINS and you have not tampered. You take stamped metal, that is already weld it together (in a bigger piece), and weld it into the panels where the VINS are stamped and affixed....you have done a good job, and not broken a law. If that isn't what your are saying....please post your picture here, so that I and everyone else can get a better understanding of where you are coming from...sound good?

[cat tracker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dwight Crawford:
.

I hope this long post will clear up some of the issues here.

In the 1980's I was collecting Pontiacs and found several, (7 as I recall) in an old salvage yard. I bought them all. Most of them were just rollers with no motors or transmission. Some had titles some didn't but I got a Bill of Sale for all of them. One in particular was interesting as the vin had been removed but the trim tag was still there. The body had no dum-dum and the battery had been relocated in the trunk. The body has some rust especially around the rear wheel openings. This had been caused by using a "Bleach Box" to do burn outs. I started sanding on the car and noticed that it had racing stripes down the hood, roof, and trunk. About the same time I saw a advertisement that a rare Pontiac was being offered for sale in the immediate area. I viewed the car for sale and took photographs. The dealer said the car had just been sold and was going up north to a collector. I returned home and contacted National Auto Theft Bureau and requested that they come to my home and pull the "hidden number" off the frame and document it. They came and pulled the number and I told them about the "fake" that had been sold. They went immediately to the owner of the "fake" and asked to inspect the vin number on the door jam. They matched the vin number(metal tag) off the fake to the frame and car I had sitting at my house. The owner of the fake confessed and told them that he had taken a "granny car" that was rust free and an easy restoration and pulled the vin number off the real car and made a clone. He was given the opportunity to remove the vin tag which he wisely did. This option is not available now as I understand it.
I loaded the real car on a trailer and took it to MVD. They took
photographs, pulled the number off the frame again, took all my documentation and the documentatin of the NATB and put an assigned vin number on the door jam. They put the original vin number on the car. A very reputable collector bought both cars and spent a lot of money restoring the real car. The car that you see today at POCI Conventions is the real car. It is worth a lot of money and will continue to appreciate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a great example of a bad restore...an inadvertent cloning job if you will. Let me ask you this....had the person been educated on what constitues a proper restoral, and used the original frame....what do you suppose would have been the outcome? Would there have been an outcome?

Just wondering, because if a person "transfers" all VIN specific parts to donor metal (a.k.a. another metal body)....is it REALLY a clone or a fake? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was not a bad restore but it was a good example of how to get caught. Their was nothing inadverent about it. He knew what he was doing.
Their is no such phrase as a "proper restoration" when you start changing vin tags and swapping bodies. In the law's eyes you have just swapped hats from a restoration shop to a chop shop.

We are talking about definations here.
I define a clone/fake as a car that has been built to look like something it isn't and never was.
A lot of people get confused over what is original and what is correct. Original is like a survivor car that is all still intact like it came from the factory. A correct car is what you see a lot of lately that has had time, money and sweat poured into it to make it look like it was originally (according to PHS documentation).
I have always considered the original body shell with the factory trim tag on the firewall and factory vin tag on the door post or dash and the frame with the corresponding factory vin number as "sacred ground" and left them alone and worked around the rust. I understand the problems with that but this way it is legal, and I didn't have to worry about it.
I don't see a problem with changing doors, hoods, fenders, and trunk lids. If I were going to sell it I would disclosure to the new owner (and get them to sign off on that) that I had left the factory assigned numbers alone but had replaced this or that. I would disclose that the engine/transmission/rear end were or were not the original. Just give an accurate description of the car and what has been done and get the buyer to sign off on it.

As prices go out of sight, the rare cars will appreciate in value, and the clones/fakes will be discovered. Consequently the people who build fakes/clones will be exposed.
You are probably saying "Yeah Right". No matter how a crook tries to conceal the crime he always leaves evidence. Most of the time it is in the form of a mad wife, girl friend, business partner, or buddy who are out to get even. - Dwight Sr.

[4SLASH6]

dwight I am with you on most of this stuff, & value your opinion & experience. that said, if I opt for a gto hood on my lemans,..well, that is exactly the type of "exposure" I am looking for. when I had access to a boat load of amx parts, dirt cheap, for my clean 1974 javelin, I gobbled them up, had fun putting it togeather & enjoyed it. no tag swapping, & I know, not a rare muscle car. clone?? yes,...and proud of it, 304 cid 4bbl 354:1 posi, etc.... it was quick, not fast. but fun ride ,...I never encountered a purist or otherwise who read my vin and accused me of something bad or in poor taste/judgement. usally it was nice job,looks great. when I sold it I advertised it as "clone" . I can only hope that any future owners do not get confused as of the cars originality. this is still a good topic & post , thank you all

[md1twal3]

Dwight...you make very good sense, except a chop shop steals the cars they are retagging, correct? An extra body lying around doesn't automatically assume that it has been stolen.

Also...let me pitch something at you, based on your definition of a clone or fake....I am curious about your thought...

I "restored" grandfathers 1966 Cadillac Calais several years ago. In the process, I had to cut the complete rear clip off of the car due to an accident (keep in mind...at the time of accident 20 years ago, it was not a total loss). There was no question that the quarters, trunk and rear window area needed replaced, because of the extensive damage, but the frame was untouched. I bought a complete rear clip from a 1966 Cadillac COUPE DE VILLE from 1-800-OLD-JUNK out of Arizona and had it shipped to Wisconsin.

To connect this very large piece of CADILLAC car (easily 80% of the body)to what I had left that was good on my Grandfathers, I drilled factory spot welds and installed it all as one piece. Now completed, you would never know that it was done....people have tried to find the splice, with no success.

Now, I have a legally titled Caddy CALAIS, with a COUPE DE VILLE rear clip....is it a fraud or clone? As I understand, by your defination, it is, indeed a fake or a clone because I have combined two differenly optioned Cadillac cars to make one. I also know it is not an "original", but isn't this as close as I could get?

And, if you do say it is a clone....I would wager that by your defination, 95%, maybe even more, cars that have been restored on this board are clones or fakes, because they are now something that they were not....regardless if 1 large replacement piece was welded in (like I did and suggest), or several aftermarket or OEM peices were welded in seperately.

NOTE: For anyone who isn't familiar with Caddy's...a Calais is a low line car...a DeVille is more desirable and more highly optioned, and more valuable. So, the question was asked...would someone take a GTO apart to save a Lemans......maybe....if the Lemans means something to them, like this Caddy means to me. Market value does not drive all restoration projects....DESIRE still drives some...

What do you think?

[SWEETJUDGE]

i never imagined a huge thread like this.
HERES the deal ALL OVER AGAIN.
car 1: is a complte #s matching high optioned 4 spd 70 GTO w/ AC. still has factory spark plugs in it. the body is really shot (ill try to get some photos on this)
car 2: (NOT PURCHASED YET) im figuring any 70 - 72 lemans cause they are more affordable & all over the place in my area.
(maybe i should be looking for another wrecked gto) & we loose this cloning issue.

did i word all this wrong???

i can part this thing out & make some money & make 1 LESS 70 GTO to exist. (im really trying to revive a dying breed)Now that will make the 70s a little rarer if we cant afford to fix them
& this goes for ALL cars.
MY INTENTION was NEVER to mislead anyone on this car.
NOT BUILDING A JUDGE for all to pick on.
im gonna pull the cover off the car & take a closer look at the whole picture, then make a decision.
i could have SOLD ALL the parts off this car this week alone but would rather SAVE IT than junk or part it.

it is savable but has to be cost effective FOR ME its mine.

[4SLASH6]

excellant points again!! good luck sweet,..I refuse to feel shame from my past clone, for making it look like something it is not,...I like the NOT!

[cat tracker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
Dwight...you make very good sense, except a chop shop steals the cars they are retagging, correct? An extra body lying around doesn't automatically assume that it has been stolen.

Also...let me pitch something at you, based on your definition of a clone or fake....I am curious about your thought...

I "restored" grandfathers 1966 Cadillac Calais several years ago. In the process, I had to cut the complete rear clip off of the car due to an accident (keep in mind...at the time of accident 20 years ago, it was not a total loss). There was no question that the quarters, trunk and rear window area needed replaced, because of the extensive damage, but the frame was untouched. I bought a complete rear clip from a 1966 Cadillac COUPE DE VILLE from 1-800-OLD-JUNK out of Arizona and had it shipped to Wisconsin.

To connect this very large piece of CADILLAC car (easily 80% of the body)to what I had left that was good on my Grandfathers, I drilled factory spot welds and installed it all as one piece. Now completed, you would never know that it was done....people have tried to find the splice, with no success.

Now, I have a legally titled Caddy CALAIS, with a COUPE DE VILLE rear clip....is it a fraud or clone? As I understand, by your defination, it is, indeed a fake or a clone because I have combined two differenly optioned Cadillac cars to make one. I also know it is not an "original", but isn't this as close as I could get?

And, if you do say it is a clone....I would wager that by your defination, 95%, maybe even more, cars that have been restored on this board are clones or fakes, because they are now something that they were not....regardless if 1 large replacement piece was welded in (like I did and suggest), or several aftermarket or OEM peices were welded in seperately.

NOTE: For anyone who isn't familiar with Caddy's...a Calais is a low line car...a DeVille is more desirable and more highly optioned, and more valuable. So, the question was asked...would someone take a GTO apart to save a Lemans......maybe....if the Lemans means something to them, like this Caddy means to me. Market value does not drive all restoration projects....DESIRE still drives some...

What do you think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most chop shops that I have seen, operate up front as a legitimate body shop. They don't go out and steal cars. They usually have a fall guy who is stealing cars to pay for his drug habit. The fall guy sells them for a fraction of what they are worth to the chop shop, and they are cut up in short order and parts sold. What I have seen is very suspicious and obvious when you look at the overall picture. Like areas where the serial numbers had been that were cut out with a plasma cutter or torch. You will find body shells that are not wrecked that have been hacked on. What you are looking for are serial numbers and they know that. Not only are you looking for what is there but what is not there.

As far as your Grandfather's Cadillac is conerned, it sounds like an old Johnny Cash song called "One Piece at a time" - Dwight Sr.

[md1twal3]

As far as your Grandfather's Cadillac is conerned, it sounds like an old Johnny Cash song called "One Piece at a time" - Dwight Sr.[/quote]

THAT is the story of my life ...but you didn't answer my question about it being a clone or a fake.....

[TJH]

Dwight- Just so that there is no misunderstanding (in case there is any), I do not find your occupation offensive in the least. I'd love to go after the idiot near Dallas who sold me a GTO with a claimed 400 engine, turbo 400 trans, that turned out to have a low-compression 1975 350, backed by a turbo 350. It was a real GTO, but nothing else that was claimed was in any way accurate.
Scumbags need to and deserve to be properly dealt with. But knowing auto body construction and structural considerations, I would still rather have a GTO with a clean desert Tempest/leMans body than a welded-up original. I have to weigh vehicle structure and therefore safety with legalities, and in this case, I would prefer to err on the side of physical safety, for me as well as my passengers (not to mention others on the highway). I'd have absolutely no problem sleeping at night, if I had to make that choice.

[cat tracker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
As far as your Grandfather's Cadillac is conerned, it sounds like an old Johnny Cash song called "One Piece at a time" - Dwight Sr. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

THAT is the story of my life ...but you didn't answer my question about it being a clone or a fake.....[/QUOTE]

It depends on what you are going to do with it. What are your intentions? Are you going to represent as what it really is?. Or what you want it to be? Or what the title says it is? A CLONE to me is a look alike represented as such, with no hidden agenda and no profit motive just a clone. A FAKE is built as a a deliberate attempt to deceive and defraud.
Two different kinds of cars, two different motives, two different agenda's and two different kinds of people involved. - Dwight Sr.