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Old 01-16-2022, 06:25 PM
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Those pics are really great and show allot. IMO, you have so much damage and variable amounts of wear throughout, the safest approach would just be a complete overhaul and measurement of all the components. Just no way to determine the level of parts replacement necessary to make the engine 100% again. I can determine a couple of things from the pics. No way in IMO, that crankshaft can be used again without grinding and polishing correctly. You can polish that thing till the cows come home and all your going to get is a smoother, out of round and tapered crankshaft. So it needs attention. While it is being reconditioned, the serrations can be dealt with as well. The root cause of the majority of the damage was a dirty assembly from what I see. I also see evidence of cap grinding that was done with a "packed" grinding wheel. Meaning the wheel was not dressed properly to open the grain and it leaves a burnished finish rather than a cool, clean ground surface. I can see this on the main caps and rod caps. Possibly the cylinders can be saved with just honing for a 2618 alloy forged piston. They can run up to .006 clearance which gives you some room to work with. The cam and lifters look to be in about the best condition of what I see in the pics. Sorry for the bad news. At least you caught it before something came apart or overheated and seized. It can all be fixed. FWIW, I prefer the 2-piece BOP seal. Easier to install and I have never had one leak. Other people have had different results.

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Old 01-16-2022, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
FWIW, I prefer the 2-piece BOP seal. Easier to install and I have never had one leak.
Ditto

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Old 01-16-2022, 07:10 PM
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The BLOCK , FIRST.. Can it even retain oil ???

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Old 01-17-2022, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
Those pics are really great and show allot. IMO, you have so much damage and variable amounts of wear throughout, the safest approach would just be a complete overhaul and measurement of all the components. Just no way to determine the level of parts replacement necessary to make the engine 100% again.
I'm there with you. I don't think there's anything to reuse other than the bare block, assuming it's ok. Would be a shame if it's not since it's original to the car. On every build in the past I've had to compromise somewhere. I'm in a spot now where I can go slow and build this thing the way I've always wanted to. I've also picked up a ton of knowledge since the last time it was built, but I still feel like a neophyte even after 30 years with this car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
I can determine a couple of things from the pics. No way in IMO, that crankshaft can be used again without grinding and polishing correctly. You can polish that thing till the cows come home and all your going to get is a smoother, out of round and tapered crankshaft. So it needs attention. While it is being reconditioned, the serrations can be dealt with as well. The root cause of the majority of the damage was a dirty assembly from what I see. I also see evidence of cap grinding that was done with a "packed" grinding wheel. Meaning the wheel was not dressed properly to open the grain and it leaves a burnished finish rather than a cool, clean ground surface. I can see this on the main caps and rod caps.
I'm really impressed what you can pick up by looking at the pics. It speaks to your experience. Obviously I'm disappointed in the outcome here, mostly because I held the shop that built this engine in high regard. I'm almost certain the death knell was when it ate the valve stem seals, which was their fault also for being sloppy with the valve guides.

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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
Possibly the cylinders can be saved with just honing for a 2618 alloy forged piston. They can run up to .006 clearance which gives you some room to work with. The cam and lifters look to be in about the best condition of what I see in the pics. Sorry for the bad news. At least you caught it before something came apart or overheated and seized. It can all be fixed. FWIW, I prefer the 2-piece BOP seal. Easier to install and I have never had one leak. Other people have had different results.
Yeah, at least I got it now instead of too late. The signs were there. When it was built, the machinist told me to use 10-30, but I was never comfortable with the oil pressure at that weight so I ran 20-50 to compensate. In the back of my mind, I knew something was wrong.

At this point, it seems I should start by getting the block checked out to see if needs if it needs to be bored, then I can move ahead choosing the stroker assembly parts. Seems like a 4.25 stroke and 6.8 rods are a given, just need to figure out the specifics of the pistons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulabruce View Post
The BLOCK , FIRST.. Can it even retain oil ???
I've got some parts coming this week and will try the test you mentioned with the flashlight. There was a good collection of grease behind the power steering pump by the fuel pump. Could have been from the front seal.

Might be a dumb question, but presuming it has been align bored, couldn't you get a thicker bearing that would put the crank back in the right place?

The other bright side to all of this is my 14 y/o son has taken a deeper interest in the car than he ever has. He was really into tearing it down and wanted to know about each part. He asked me why the cam and pushrods were in the trash today. In my mind I was like "Yes! He recognized a cam and pushrods!"

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  #45  
Old 01-17-2022, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by lust4speed View Post
Might want to start with a good look at the crank.
Even though I'm not going to use it, I went back to look at this area of the crank. It seems the pic is showing something that's not there. But, I think mgarblik is right, this thing wouldn't clean up with a polish. It's scored pretty bad, discolored in spots and even has a few divots in it. One looks like it's from a rod bolt, which could have been my doing.

Also, it's crazy how much crap these parts pick up by hanging out in my garage!










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  #46  
Old 01-17-2022, 05:08 PM
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Some thoughts after looking at these pictures. It makes a perfect case for using a by pass oil filter to remove particulate that will continue to circulate right past a full flow filter, without being removed from the oil. All the fine abrasives are going through the engine over, and over, tearing up all the tightly clearanced parts.

Perhaps the engine wasn't properly assembled when it was built, but the damage could have been minimized had the fine abrasives been removed the first pass on the by pass filter. Recirculating for miles and miles did grind up all the wear surfaces within the engine, as evidenced by the pictures.

These pictures also mirror an engine that has a lot of laps in a dirt track car. Fine abrasives enter through the air filter no matter how good the filter is, then work past the rings, and into the oil. If left in the oil, it produces results much like these pictures show. They recirculate over, and over, grinding away the wear surfaces.

If the OP hadn't decided to repair his rear main seal leak, the carnage would have continued, until likely there was a mechanical failure, or he saw evidence that the engine was producing metal filings.

I know, "By pass filters have no place in a hobby car", I heard that somewhere before. But when that one part fails, and starts producing fine grit, unknown to the owner, a better quality filter may at least be able to salvage some of the internals. It may also stave off spinning a bearing, causing catastrophic failure, namely a connecting rod through the block.

The by pass filters I use, have all the removed particulate right at the end of the filter. If there is metal, you'll see it when you change the media, it can't be avoided. If you're not cutting open your oil OEM style filters, you have no idea if there is metal accumulating in the media.

Carry on....

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  #47  
Old 01-17-2022, 06:54 PM
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I agree 100% with Brad, but First, ... BLOCK, BLOCK, BLOCK....... Can it hold the crank where it needs to be to SEAL...after it had an "align bore" ??
>>> POST # 1... >>>> OIL LEAK...........<<<<
I see you addressed this in post #44 , and that's a relief!
A true Align bore corrects the angle of the crank to the bores typically after the bore is done to correct an out of round bore.
The goal is to "re" achieve the 90 degrees. Typically the bore plate corrects to the exhaust side of the block and therefore the crank has to get moved up.
( as I understand it and was explained to me )
If you have a 5 under chain, your block was Align Bored.
You can't put "thicker" bearing half in the block and thinner in the cap to compensate.
For the rear and front oil seals to work that crank has be dead on where it was when new. It will not take much to make it leak.
I have seen 2 Pontiac blocks leak for this same reason ( other reasons too on 1975 and 76 455 blocks) .
Even if you change Blocks, you still should get your final assembly smoked, even if you get it dynoed after.
USA Made smoke machine >> https://www.amazon.com/AutoLine-Pro-.../dp/B07JVT1NG2
WATCH smoke leak out a Crankshaft seal.( Block was align honed) >>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObnbOfo_ko

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  #48  
Old 01-17-2022, 08:37 PM
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Got my parts today and put together the front cover and balancer and .010 bearings. Looked for light and then ran some grease around the seal and checked the balancer to see where it was contacting. I couldn't see any indication that it wouldn't seal, but it's pretty tight in there. A smoke test seems like a good idea when the time comes.

I chatted with a tech from Butler this afternoon. They echoed formulabruce - make sure the block is good. Butler's rotating assemblies sound like the way to go since they're balanced and blueprinted. One thing I didn't consider was how upping the cubes would mess with the compression ratio. The Ram Air II heads on a 461 would need a ~30cc dish in the piston to keep the compression around 9.4/9.5:1. Seems like a lot of dish.

Surprisingly, he recommended practically the same cam as what I got from Kauffmann for a 400. (276/282 224/230, .503/.510, 114 vs. 278/289 224/230 112 .502/.510). He said the RAII heads with a stroker would be good for around 425hp but would have great low end torque. I was expecting a higher HP number, seems like I could get that number out of the current displacement easy.

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  #49  
Old 01-17-2022, 09:20 PM
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With 461 cubes and that small of a cam, with unported stock iron heads, he's probably pretty close to his HP estimate.

It would need quite a bit more camshaft and some cylinder head work to reach closer to the 500 mark.

Maybe with the unported heads, and stepping up to a cam in the 230 @ .050 range close to RAIV spec might get you close to 1hp per CI.

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  #50  
Old 01-18-2022, 09:35 AM
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lol.....the parts sitting around thing......OMFG you have no idea how much WATER I was dealing with 2 months ago trying to put the short block together!!! Every day...start with scotchbrite grey and "hone" the rust out of the cylinders, then rub on the crank journals. As we had like %400 humidity. Finally after finish mocking everything we did one more "clean" and installed crank then next day the pistons (as everything was already for FINISH ASSEMBLY.)


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Old 01-18-2022, 09:49 AM
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I really enjoy all of the input in this thread. Learn something all of the time.
Not familiar with "Oil Bypass Filters" , so I found a good article on how they work. Looks like a Truck (and Diesel thing), and wonder if anyone in the car world really uses something like this?
https://www.thebestoil.com/products/...iAAEgJSj_D_BwE
Geez - I am old school and believe in just changing the oil at least every season, not putting synthetic or heavy based oils in older engine (like NOT 20W50, 10W-30 or 40 is fine), and use the biggest and tallest high quality filter(s) that will fit. No filter is gonna save a improperly built engine, it will eventually clog with particulates, and/or begin to bypass the oil resulting in carnage. Notice that when you first start the car the oil pressure can be much higher, and with 20W oil it can just trigger the oil pump pressure regulator to bypass oil, or bypass the oil within the filter by triggering the bypass valve.
https://www.pgfilters.com/tech-tips/...ve-oil-filter/

Anyone familiar with Smokey Yunick? Quote "Smokey Yunick always insisted that FOUR (2) quart filters in parallel were required to properly filter every ounce of oil".

Yeah - I went that route. Overkill? Maybe but sure works.
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  #52  
Old 01-18-2022, 11:33 AM
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[QUOTE=Hesster1977;6311638
Not familiar with "Oil Bypass Filters" , so I found a good article on how they work. Looks like a Truck (and Diesel thing), and wonder if anyone in the car world really uses something like this?
[/QUOTE]

Not really

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Old 01-18-2022, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesster1977 View Post
I really enjoy all of the input in this thread. Learn something all of the time.
Not familiar with "Oil Bypass Filters" , so I found a good article on how they work. Looks like a Truck (and Diesel thing), and wonder if anyone in the car world really uses something like this?
https://www.thebestoil.com/products/...iAAEgJSj_D_BwE
Geez - I am old school and believe in just changing the oil at least every season, not putting synthetic or heavy based oils in older engine (like NOT 20W50, 10W-30 or 40 is fine), and use the biggest and tallest high quality filter(s) that will fit. No filter is gonna save a improperly built engine, it will eventually clog with particulates, and/or begin to bypass the oil resulting in carnage. Notice that when you first start the car the oil pressure can be much higher, and with 20W oil it can just trigger the oil pump pressure regulator to bypass oil, or bypass the oil within the filter by triggering the bypass valve.
https://www.pgfilters.com/tech-tips/...ve-oil-filter/

Anyone familiar with Smokey Yunick? Quote "Smokey Yunick always insisted that FOUR (2) quart filters in parallel were required to properly filter every ounce of oil".

Yeah - I went that route. Overkill? Maybe but sure works.
The point you miss is the fine particulate that goes right through a full flow filter, The engine shows what that fine particulate does when it keeps recirculating. Putting 20 full flow filters won't catch the fine particulate. And yes, I have one on my 05 GTO, and my 93 6.5 turbo diesel dually. I will have one on my next 455 84 Grand Prix project also, when it gets finished.

I have a board member here that wiped a cam lobe in a flat tappet in his newly rebuilt 467 upon break in. He was worried about all the fine material from that lobe, and lifter that he couldn't get from flushing the engine with solvents. He also didn't want to remove the engine, and completely disassemble it for cleaning.

He had about drained himself financially from the engine build, and the cam/lifter failure repair. The builder of his engine originally did not put in the parts he requested to be used, namely lifters. He feels the failure was due to the builder using an inferior lifter in his case.

I suggested a by pass filter for his 71 GTO to remove any traces of metal from the cam lobe that was in the engine. This is well over a year ago since he put it back together. He's perfectly happy with his engine since the cam problem, and after installing the by pass filter.

He has piece of mind that the by pass system has removed anything that the full flow cannot physically remove because of difference of pore size between the two filters. He also says the oil is visually as clean as when he put the engine back together.

We all know that," by pass filters have no place on hobby cars though".

By pass filters work on any I/C engine, it doesn't have to be a diesel to protect the engine from wear. It also safely extends oil changes so your $15 dollar a quart boutique oil doesn't have to be tossed out, because it became dirty from the full flow filters inability to remove the microscopic abrasive particulate. This shows how it could be a safety factor if something goes awry in an engine, unbeknownst to the owner.

The by pass filter doesn't restrict oil flow to the internally oiled engine parts either, because it's not trying to filter every ounce of oil that goes through the oil pump. That was Smokey's reasoning for using the huge full flow filters in a race engine, to stop oil restriction, and stop the bypass valve from opening under full throttle, if it hadn't been eliminated by the builder. If the bypass valve was eliminated the massive media area would prevent oil pressure drop, while stopping the crushing of the internal media by hydraulic pressure.

The OP is lucky he decided to pull it down, and check bearings during the rear main seal install.

I fully agree that the block needs to be brought back to correct specifications before reassembly, as does everything within the engine during rebuild.

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Last edited by Sirrotica; 01-18-2022 at 11:59 AM.
  #54  
Old 01-18-2022, 12:34 PM
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Well all of that is great, how bout a pic or two to share with us on these BP filters? My old school point (and Smokey’s) is a large high quality oil filter, along with frequent oil changes, is just fine for 99% of the common hot rodders. And then 2 or even 4 filters are filtering the oil 2x or 4x better with less restriction. Sure, a bypass filter prob scrubs every little bit of crap out of the oil., but at what point are these approach’s somewhat overkill? The other factor is the PVC system, stock one’s just send the foul contaminated crankcase vapors back into the engine, where as valve cover breathers , or catch cans are better, or best yet is a Crankcase Evac set up.
This posts’ engine damage was assembly and parts issues causing internal damage., and maybe using 20w oil which can cause pump and filter bypass. And yeah, with the various ways mentioned in these posts to filter oil it may have reduced the carnage, but prob not totally prevented it.

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Old 01-18-2022, 01:01 PM
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If you have an engine that ingests air from the atmosphere, you are inducing solid microscopic matter constantly. Does the furniture in your house get dusty, mine does. That stuff will pass through any air filter made for an automobile, eventually it ends up in the oil. In a dirt track car (which I'm very familiar with) the process is accelerated by the sheer numbers of particulate in the air.

You need to do more research about how filtering down to 5 microns extends the life of any engine roughly 7 fold over a conventional oil filter. The only way you can keep the microscopic dirt accumulation in check is the flush the crankcase with fresh oil repeatedly. The price of oil is rising constantly, but you can keep flushing the engine with it if you choose to. Or you can remove it with a filter designed to remove it, OEM filters are designed to keep flushing the system with fresh oil, they don't remove the fine matter from the oil.

I really don't want to get further off topic here, since it isn't my thread. I'd be glad to speak about by pass filters in a thread devoted to that subject.


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Old 01-18-2022, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Hesster1977 View Post
Not familiar with "Oil Bypass Filters" , so I found a good article on how they work. Looks like a Truck (and Diesel thing), and wonder if anyone in the car world really uses something like this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Not really
LOL

I did a little homework last night and looked at various crank and stroker kits and searched through some old threads. It seems like the real benefit of a 471+ stroker comes in with a set of aluminum heads where you can keep the compression higher.

From what I've been reading,a -30cc dish is on the larger side, but shouldn't present any problems. Any advantage to splitting the difference with a 4" crank and building a 440 to keep the dish smaller? Is it a wash? I guess the compression ratio will be the same either way, just less cubes.

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Old 01-18-2022, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Verdoro 68 View Post
LOL

I did a little homework last night and looked at various crank and stroker kits and searched through some old threads. It seems like the real benefit of a 471+ stroker comes in with a set of aluminum heads where you can keep the compression higher.

From what I've been reading,a -30cc dish is on the larger side, but shouldn't present any problems. Any advantage to splitting the difference with a 4" crank and building a 440 to keep the dish smaller? Is it a wash? I guess the compression ratio will be the same either way, just less cubes.
The amount of dish you need really isn't going to affect much of anything at these power levels. If I were choosing, since the rotating assemblies cost about the same, I'd go with at least a 4.250 setup and just tailor the compression to what ever you want with the piston design and run with it.

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Old 01-18-2022, 02:50 PM
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Dont worry about the HP. You'll have GOBS of Torque most likely BELOW where most Dynos begin to estimate HP.
Thats where you drive..

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Old 01-18-2022, 04:43 PM
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I am a big fan of the 4" stroke engines. If it was my build I would go 4". Moves the rpm range up a little bit and kills a little bottom end.

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Old 01-18-2022, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulabruce View Post
Dont worry about the HP. You'll have GOBS of Torque most likely BELOW where most Dynos begin to estimate HP.
Thats where you drive..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
The amount of dish you need really isn't going to affect much of anything at these power levels. If I were choosing, since the rotating assemblies cost about the same, I'd go with at least a 4.250 setup and just tailor the compression to what ever you want with the piston design and run with it.
I appreciate the insights. I figured I might be overthinking things.

Quote:
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I am a big fan of the 4" stroke engines. If it was my build I would go 4". Moves the rpm range up a little bit and kills a little bottom end.
Is is the higher RPM that you like about the shorter stroke? Most of my driving will be normal cruising around town. My complaint about the last build was that it didn't wake up until 3k. I found myself downshifting a lot to get it in the power band. The cams I used were likely the main culprit (first a Crower 916, then a Lunati 702).

I put a call into a few shops today including one up in Sonoma that built a RAII a couple years ago.

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