#401  
Old 05-04-2022, 08:08 AM
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Hesster1977 Hesster1977 is offline
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428 Bobcat GTO
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  #402  
Old 05-04-2022, 10:04 AM
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428 Bobcat GTO
Here it is today:

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  #403  
Old 05-04-2022, 02:25 PM
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Default Kern TA SD-455 picture

A poor copy of the original Picture, but can't seem to find this picture anywhere else
from Craig Hendrickson's Original H-O sometime back

Kern Osterstock driving
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1984 RX7 Jim Hand style 455 /200 4R Project car
67 White/Gold GTO 4 speed sold, 1968 GTO 4 speed sold, 1969 GTO auto sold, 68 Firebird 400 4 speed (455) sold, 65 GTO Night Watch Blue 4 speed sold, 64 GTO Nocturne Blue 4 speed sold, 71 GTO Gold auto sold. 1975 Formula 400 auto sold.
Hopefully to be restored, H-"O" Racing 73 Trans Am SD 4 speed,
Sons 70 Formula 400 auto, and wife's 1974 AMX 360 auto, 1975 Jeep Honcho 4x4, 1965 Buick Special post
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  #404  
Old 05-04-2022, 09:06 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
Mike, I explained exactly how it was run! Go slowly and look at the pictures! The SD version had a bellhousing in the front, the rope shaft bolted right to a drilled spot ONTO the crankshaft, just like the non-SD Vehicles. The Rope drive then went back into the transaxle through a splined Shaft end.
The power was transferred through to the Tempest TQ trans. Through the rear differential (the iron case), Then to the 2-speed planetary at the Rear of the case. NOTE: the flywheel attached to the shaft coming out of the planetary with the clutch attached and the hydraulic release bearing behind it. There is a plate between the parts to hang the upside-down starter. Remember, they only made 14 cars with this unit plus they made a spare for each car that was built. Millions of dollars, I believe, were spent on developing and designing this package prior to bringing this limited-edition production to fruition. We know that there are 2 surviving cars with a transaxle installed in them. Ken, in OK. has one that I owned, for his SD Tempest uninstalled. There is another one, although it has a broken main shaft, in OR., installed in an Ebay SD leman. But the missing Daytona Lemans that went back to Europe after the race, MIGHT be in a warehouse somewhere. When I sold the SD Transaxle to Ken, he received my factory drawings of the unit. Tom
Mikes Reply:

Tom S., I understand that much, it is the four speed that I am having some difficulty understanding?

If the story above depicts how the 2-speed Transaxle works, then where is the additional 2-Plantaries to make it 4-speed and how is the clutching mechanism used? I think at one time that you said one has to shift manually to get under way and would you need the clutch to shift into reverse and then 2-3-4- are all Automatic?


Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 05-04-2022 at 09:59 PM.
  #405  
Old 05-04-2022, 09:14 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 455dan View Post
A poor copy of the original Picture, but can't seem to find this picture anywhere else, from Craig Hendrickson's Original H-O, sometime back.

Kern Osterstock driving
Mikes Reply:

Your Vehicle sounds similar to mine; however, you have solid lifters and I have Hydraulic; can you tell the difference in the tones from lifter to lifter?

  #406  
Old 05-04-2022, 09:16 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith Seymore View Post
Here it is today:

Mikes Reply:

Keith is this your Blue car painted Red or is the above photo from Hesster1977's article?

  #407  
Old 05-04-2022, 10:20 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012 View Post
Mikes Reply:

Tom S., I understand that much, it is the four speed that I am having some difficulty understanding?

If the story above depicts how the 2-speed Transaxle works, then where is the additional 2-Plantaries to make it 4-speed and how is the clutching mechanism used? I think at one time that you said one has to shift manually to get under way and would you need the clutch to shift into reverse and then 2-3-4- are all Automatic?
Mikes second Reply:

I can only make an educated guess here, the dual planetaries are located in the Rear of the Transfer case and the 2 planetaries work in series and the 2-speed becomes four speeds combining them Automatically. The clutch is used to get the Vehicle rolling and in reverse and 2-3-4 are Automatic?


Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 05-04-2022 at 10:44 PM.
  #408  
Old 05-04-2022, 11:57 PM
tom s tom s is online now
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There is NO auto!If you have it in 2nd and launch the car it will stay in 2nd until you shift it to 3rd!You just don’t need the clutch except to get the car moving.Very violent shifting I was told.They would sometimes use the clutch between gears in the pits.They did make a couple with a fluid coupler but those seem to break the main shaft.The one the Brothers have for the EBay car does have a broken main shaft.Starting from the front of the pic you have is the iron input housing,then the Tempest TQ 2 speed trans,then the iron differential,then the 2 speed planatery,then the Stella plate for the starter,then the flywheel with clutch and then hyd release bearing hanging off the back.Tom

  #409  
Old 05-05-2022, 01:34 AM
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Mikes Reply: This is how I think Transaxle works, this is purely speculation, before I get an argument that lasts days.

After looking at the Transaxle I have deduced that the converter is in the front of the diff. and the Rope drive is turning at Engine speed. There are 3 shafts, the center is the Pump or impeller and is turning at Engine speed @ all times and runs through the diff. to the rear of this system to the clutch and hydraulic part. The Clutch turns the fly- wheel. Like any Transfer case there is a gear over gear at the rear, this lower gear to shaft is the same as the pump or impeller shaft and is always turning @ Engine rpm. That Hydraulic clutch part must use a bearing so it is immobile and Justs sits there. The clutch must move the internal Planetary gears. In the front of the diff is the Torque converter, center is Pump/impeller shaft, outside is the Turbine shaft and outside that is the Stator shaft. The Turbine is driven by the impeller by fluid transfer and the stator is attached to the inside of the Turbine to assist in torque multiplication. Like in the TH 400 the stator is fluid spun and multiplies the first gear most to get the vehicle moving and continues in second gear with less force and third with less force until third reaches a one-to-one ratio and it spins at the same speed as the driven impeller/pump. OfCourse, this scenario is a 4- speed.


Now about the Planetary gears, they spin around the sun gear and are all tucked in the ring gear. The system is designed to use 3 gears and only 2 are usable, most of the time. This system uses two sets of Planetary gears to arrive @ a 4- speed. Thus, I believe one of the outcast unused gears may be used for reverse? Remember, I am only speculating here and I have not yet studied the 1961 Tempest Manual, although I did scan through the pictures. Most of my intuition is what I have read and watched videos on the computer about the TH 400, because I am getting ready to build mine. Only reason It is not done already is that my home needs attention and it takes precedence over the car. Let me know if I am close to being correct, Tom S. please.

I just read # 408 post, perhaps I just invented the Automatic version?


Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 05-05-2022 at 01:40 AM.
  #410  
Old 05-05-2022, 08:40 AM
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Hesster1977 Hesster1977 is offline
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"The Last of the A-Body Muscle"
Both Rare!
Pontiac Mag April 1990
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  #411  
Old 05-05-2022, 04:18 PM
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Keith Seymore Keith Seymore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012 View Post
Mikes Reply:

Keith is this your Blue car painted Red or is the above photo from Hesster1977's article?
This is the car that was used in the Car and Driver article, with a 421.

(It's always been red).

Same car as shown in Hesster's article.

K

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  #412  
Old 05-05-2022, 05:25 PM
tom s tom s is online now
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MIKE!NO converter!Tom

  #413  
Old 05-05-2022, 05:27 PM
tom s tom s is online now
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Mike,im sorry,I dont think you will EVER grasp how the deal worked!Tom

  #414  
Old 05-05-2022, 08:46 PM
Joe's Garage Joe's Garage is offline
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Default That's a fair assessment...

IMO, quite a bit is "beyond the grasp" of members with '2012' in their username....

Joe out (again). I know when to keep quiet.

  #415  
Old 05-05-2022, 10:36 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
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Mikes Reply:

Tom S., I came out with # 409 before you came out with # 408 and there lies the discrepancy. The fact that the Transaxle is only manual and has to use the clutch to get it rolling but can be shifted without the use of the clutch after that but harder shifts would occur as if it were an Automatic is clear and understood. . .Too bad it took this long to establish that.

Paul Goldsmith, combined two factory Transaxles, and used them in a way that the other Engineers at Pontiac never did. My congratulations for his foresight and Engineering prowess to accomplish this so early, before anybody else.

Just how he actually accomplished this is my next question? However, if the info. is not available, I understand. I am curious and no question is a bad question. So, those of you who want to assume that I don't understand this subject, that I started and have supplied the data in Articles to expound on the topic in greater detail, would be mistaken.

By the way Paul Goldsmith took the 1963? Tempest around the speed way and lapped every Enzo, Vett, etc... to win. Using Independent suspension and the dual Transaxle he designed out of the Pontiac parts bin, my new Hero, he is alive @ the age of 95 according to what I read.

Evan a more unexplained statement, "They did make a couple with a fluid coupler but those seem to break the main shaft", Mikes, understanding about Fluid Coupling is directly associated with an Automatic Transmission. A Fluid Coupling in an Automatic Trans. is when they had the impeller called pump in the old days that spun the Turbine with Fluid transfer, less the Stator, in the Torque converter. So, if I don't understand, blame the teacher.


Last edited by TRADERMIKE 2012; 05-05-2022 at 11:18 PM.
  #416  
Old 05-05-2022, 10:46 PM
TRADERMIKE 2012 TRADERMIKE 2012 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Seymore View Post
This is the car that was used in the Car and Driver article, with a 421.

(It's always been red).

Same car as shown in Hesster's article.

K
Mikes Reply:
Keith, the gentleman as usual, thank you for your explanation.

  #417  
Old 05-05-2022, 11:11 PM
tom s tom s is online now
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Mike,I know the history of the 63 Tempest far better than you.Also the SD cars did not use 2 transaxle.They used one that was way diff from the passenger cars.The planetary behind the differential was unique and nothing in common with the trans.The SD transaxle did not have a differential in the case.There was a solid splined bar of steel that went through the cases.They we’re like a spool and had to drag a tire when making a turn.The reason I sold mine as it would have played hell on the already weak 7in ring gear.There first car I bought when 17 was a special ordered 63 Lemans 326 HO 3 speed car.I have been owning and driving and racing 63 Tempest since then,owning both 4cycs and V8 rope shaft cars along with 3 that were converted to solid rearends along with front mounted 4 and 5 speeds.Carry on!Tom

  #418  
Old 05-06-2022, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
Mike, I know the history of the 63 Tempest far better than you. Also, the SD cars did not use 2 transaxles. Hey used one that was way diff from the passenger cars. The planetary behind the differential was unique and nothing in common with the trans. The SD transaxle did not have a differential in the case. There was a solid splined bar of steel that went through the cases. They we’re like a spool and had to drag a tire when making a turn. The reason I sold mine as it would have played hell on the already weak 7in ring gear. There first car I bought when 17 was a special ordered 63 Lemans 326 HO 3 speed car. I have been owning and driving and racing 63 Tempest since then, owning both 4cycs and V8 rope shaft cars along with 3 that were converted to solid rear-ends along with front mounted 4 and 5 speeds. Carry on! Tom
Mikes Reply:

This is why I directed my questions to you. The only thing to clear up is this:

"What did Paul Goldsmith do to the Dual Transaxle he created, to make it such a winner at the Daytona Ovel track lapping the field?

  #419  
Old 05-06-2022, 08:23 AM
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More on Tempests.
This one is from Pontiac Mag Feb 1990.
"The Farmer" Arnie Beswicks' Tameless Tiger Race Car.
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  #420  
Old 05-06-2022, 10:15 AM
tom s tom s is online now
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Mike,Goldsmith was just the driver!The car was given to Ray Nichels of Nichels Engineering,they built NASCAR car in the day.There are pics of the underhood of that car and you can see multi cooling lines which I assume were oil cooling for engine and trans.The truth be known is they got lucky with the weather.I think they only ran like 140 MPH.They did outlast the field.The 500 that year was won by a Ford at 150 plus MPH and was also weather challenged.The car is still a mystery as it was sold ,rummer to be MBZ.To this day the only unaccounted of the 14 SD Tempests

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