[djustice]

The last day before winter storage i did some "pedaling" of the car, about 1 minute later coming to a stop at a roundabout i could hear erratic lifter tic.
When pulling away the tick continued, i parked the car at my winter storage.

notes: there was no change in engine vacuum, idle or oil pressure.

Last weekend i pulled the valve covers off, started the car and attempted to adjust the preload on my nr.6 exhaust lifter (obvious noise form this lifter) i backed of the poly lock setscrew all the way and adjusted the lifter til the rockerarm bottomed out on the stud it did quiet down when i was bottoming out the rocker on the stud, but obviously this is not a good solution.

During the winter i am planning on swapping out camshaft, lifters and timing set.

i have no clue on what cam and lifters are in the engine now, i assume Comp cams, since valve springs (double) and pushrods are comp cams. i could inspect the top of the lifters trough the pushrod hole and they have the paperclip style retainer.

Rigth now there is a crower 60919 cam aviable on a local to me marktplace: link https://www.finn.no/bap/forsale/ad.h...kode=212132754

I can also source some lifters with very little info on them, all i have to go on is: hydraulic lifter HP anti-pump up and a part number: HL1951R .

Maybe related to Elgin HT 951R ? alterd part number? but i can't know for sure.

I already have a pushrod checker tool from comp cams.

Now my combo as far as i know:

73 455 YC block bored 0.60 over
6x8 heads (stock as far as i know.)
pistons are sealpower/Speedpro vms75 6.7CC dish
rear gear 3:42
th400
Converter: seems like 13" brakestall to 1850 rpm, flashstall when goosing it about 2400 rpm
Headman full length headers 1 3/4" primaries
pypes complete 2.5" exhaust with x-pipe and racepro mufflers
EFI with full timing control and matched CD-box

i guesstimate my static CR at about 9.2:1

Would you use crower 60919 cam and HL1951R lifters, seeing as this is a weekend car with a few long trips to various car meetings around the country ranging from 300 miles to 500 miles plus on each meet, plus lots of city driving.

[steve25]

First off when adjusting the rockers it is not the rocker that bottom out on the stud, it’s the ball that bottoms out on the studs taper where it translations from 7/16 down to the fine thread area.

You need to understand this to understand the adjustment process.


Before you go buying new parts I would pull that apart exh rocker and ball off,

Look close at the flat side of the rocker ball for cracks emanating from the center out .

I have seen this take place on rocker balls that have been tighten down beyond the 20 ft spec, and once this takes place the valve adjustment done by means of the stock jam nut or a poly lock will not hold!

Also you may just need a new lifter.

Pull the motor down and remove that lifter and look at the exh lobe.
If the nose of the lobe looks like all the other good ones and the base circle looks like it is only showing ware on about one half the width of the base of the lobe as it should if it’s good.

Also look at the oil hole ends of the push rod.
They should be round and have no flat spots like they have not been spinning .

Then putting in a new lifter will get your back to being well again.

[chuckies76ta]

Try the Johnson lifters if you can find them or put some Solid Crower Roller lifters in there and run the hybrid setup. Tight lash .005 and don't look back.

[djustice]

Originally Posted by steve25

First off when adjusting the rockers it is not the rocker that bottom out on the stud, it’s the ball that bottoms out on the studs taper where it translations from 7/16 down to the fine thread area.

You need to understand this!

That was poor wording on my behalf , of course it is the roller rocker trunion portion that is bottoming out on the taper of the stud.

Originally Posted by steve25

Before you go buying new parts I would pull that apart and look close at the flat side of the rocker ball for cracks emanating from the center out .

This actually happend back in 2013 , the the stamped steel rockerarm cracked on the same exact postion (No6. exhaust) after that faliure i installed Scorpion full roller rockers , and added lash caps to all valvetips with corresponding valve locks and retainers machined with lash cap recess.

And yes i need to pull the intake and vallypan to establish what i have now 100% ,is the smartest thing to do.

[SD455DJ]

Djustice, Good advice from Steve25, he knows what he is talking about. Just to share regarding your question about running the 60919 cam in your combo, it should be OK, however, your compression may be a bit low at 9.2 SCR. It might be a little 'peaky' with your stock stall convertor...meaning it may need a little higher idle so you may have to use both feet at a stop to keep it running. I like 9.5 +/- for RAIV type cams, even in 455's. I have a 461 (400 block +.030 with 4.25 stroke) with a Bullet hydraulic cam with 231/239/112 @ .490" lift with the Johnson HyLift R lifters and it runs great, and quiet...with a 4-speed. The heads are SD Perf. 6X8's that have been cnc ported to 255 cfm average flow at .600 lift. The intake is an SD Perf. ported factory iron piece with a 7040267 Q-jet. It idles at 900-1000 rpm, which would cause excessive creep in 'Drive' with your stock convertor at a stop. My heads have the 7/16" rocker studs and polylocks with HS 1.50 roller rockers in case you are wondering. I will say on long trips it can get 18+ mpg on state highways (not the 80 mph expressways) running 55-65 mph (M20 with 3.08 rear end). It has plenty of low end grunt to not require excessive clutch slip when taking off from stops.

I hope this helps a little.

Dennis

[steve25]

If you have had a failure like you now go into more detail about then yes first take a look by pulling things down, but I would bet that the number 6 exh lobe is toast now.

[djustice]

Yes i suspect that aswell, i'll get to pulling the intake and valleypan.
It will be some time before i can do this as there is planned a reorganization of the winterstorage facility to aid me in getting more spece around the car to work on it,
That involves moving other peoples stuff and cars.

I'll update this thread with what i find.

Thank you Steve25 , SD455DJ and chuckies76ta for replying with valuable info.

[1968GTO421]

Originally Posted by djustice

Rigth now there is a crower 60919 cam aviable on a local to me marktplace: link https://www.finn.no/bap/forsale/ad.h...kode=212132754

.

Thank you for posting that link. It was very interesting to see what parts and all that you all have available to you. And seeing it in Norwegian language was really cool.

[Jay S]

The HL1951R lifters should be a old crane and wolverine number. Speed pro had a similar number, I think TRW had the same lifter. Made by Hylift Johnson going back many years ago. Should be a very good quality lifter. But, they were also experimenting with bleed down rates for high rpms lifters in that era, I am not sure but I think the R on the end of the part number might be the really fast bleed downs. Not sure I would want that particular lifter if I am correct. I would have to look that up in one of my old books to be sure. I think I have had one set that were the fast bleed downs, I didn’t like them, they were noisy and irratic. The normal number is just HL1951.

I think I would prefer to see the cam card for that 60919 before recommending it. If the crower 60919 is a current grind (can tell looking at the cam card) like the last couple i have ran across it would run fine in a 9 ish compression 455. If the cam is from the same era of the lifters in the 80s or 90s I would be hesitant. IRC there are some older 60919 versions that were much bigger, and would have liked closer to 9.7-10:2:1 compression. IRC some very old 60919s had 18* more seat timing (even more duration than a old RA 4 grind). May have been a fluke, but if I had one I assume there are more out there like it.

If the noise happened suddenly you could only need a lifter. Should be able to tell pretty easily by inspection with the intake and valley cover off. My opinions is the same as what Steve25 wrote.

Might want to keep in mind flat tappet cams are not very easily to get at the moment here in the states. It is hit and miss anyway, rolling shortages. Good supply then a month or 2 month wait…or longer…much longer….

[johnta1]

Do you have 7/16" rocker studs?
Or stock 3/8" studs?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Jay S

The HL1951R lifters should be a old crane and wolverine number. Speed pro had a similar number, I think TRW had the same lifter. Made by Hylift Johnson going back many years ago. Should be a very good quality lifter. But, they were also experimenting with bleed down rates for high rpms lifters in that era, I am not sure but I think the R on the end of the part number might be the really fast bleed downs. Not sure I would want that particular lifter if I am correct. I would have to look that up in one of my old books to be sure. I think I have had one set that were the fast bleed downs, I didn’t like them, they were noisy and irratic. The normal number is just HL1951.

I was a WD for several years for Crane and Wolverine Blue Racer Parts.
I have several of the old Pontiac parts catalogs.
I looked today in the information I had and the HL-1951 lifter was the only
lifter listed.

My information suggests that there were three Pontiac Lifter designs offered.

a) The Normal HL 1951 lifter as you posted.
b) Rhoades made a fast bleed down lifter where they machine a vertical groove on the lifter piston that WILL cause a faster bleed down at lower rpm.
c) The RA-IV Lifters used a special pushrod cup in the normal HL 1951 lifters that reduced the ability of the lifter to pump up by reducing the piston travel/height in the engine. These lifters may be what you are referring to as the HL 1951R lifters.
They were not fast bleed down lifters but reduced travel (anti pump up) lifters.

The cam companies may have been testing the Rhoades faster bleed down lifters to see if they actually worked but they spent their time producing the normal HL 1951 lifters or the reduced travel RA-IV type lifters for the Pontiacs. I have removed the "thicker" RA-IV pushrod cups on a set of used lifters and installed them in new HL 1951 lifters and the lifters showed no ill effects with those used parts in the new lifter assemblies.

This is from what info I have or can remember from those days years ago.

Rhoades holds the patent on the fast bleed down lifters and no one else has been able to mass produce those lifters with their design, to my knowledge.

Tom V.

[Jay S]

I looked in my speed pro book and found the “R” lifter, listed as HL951R. . So it was a slightly different number, that is where I remember seeing the “R” at the end of the part number. That is as close as I find to the match the HL-1951R.

Crane came out with a lifter that was suppose to compete with Rhoads in that 1990ish time frame. I recall Jim Hand trying a set in his wagon, and did not work very well. I think that was different than the “R” though. The set of “R” type lifters we had were noisy below 1000 rpm. But I looked it up and we had TRW’s version of them with a different part number. They were likely the same lifter as speed pro “R”, I don’t think I have ever seen a set of the HL-1951R lifters. I assume it could be the same lifter as the TRW and Speed pro I had though.

I think they had faster bleed rates and shimmed different just like Tom V says. The ones we tried had fast bleed rates. We had the idle set at 900-1000 to quiet them down.

[djustice]

Jay S: a link to a picture of the cam card in the original listing:


Regarding the lifters, i got curious and called the speedshop selling them, and asked about brand, he replied: Mahle , i also asked if there where something special about adjusting these particular lifters.
He said nope, just the normal 1/2 turn preload.


johnta1: they are 7/16" scorpion roller rockers fit on the studs out of the box, and been running flawless for many miles from 2013 til now.

[Jay S]

Mahle is a modern company, if that is correct they are likely just a Eaton or Delphi high performance lifter.


That is a fairly old cam going by the cam card. Crower hasn’t ground it on a 113 LSA for a number of years. They are all ground on 112 now. I would use it but I would want some Rhoads lifters on it. Preferably a V pro so you can adjust the action of the lifter.

[ponyakr]

"...Delphi high performance lifter..."

Just curious. I've come to the conclusion that all the Pontiac HFT lifters, made this century by Delphi, have the groove/parting line close to the bottom, indicating that the bottoms are attached to the upper section of the lifter body. Or, in other words, they had/have a 2-piece lifter body.

Is this correct ?

If this is so, has anybody had the bottom to come off one of these lifters ?

A couple of years back, I bought a set of Jegs brand lifters, which had the low groove. Assume they were made by Delphi, because of the low groove & because Jegs advertised that they were made in the USA. I replaced the paperclip wire retainers with real snap rings, from Fastenal. Didn't have any lifter problems, but didn't keep the car long enuff to get any real performance or longevity results.

[Nobuddy]

I`m not sure what manufacture of lifters those are, but if they are Hylift Johnson, this is from their catalog about the "R" suffix.

“R” or Race Design: These parts have an “R” designation after their part number. So a Race
Design part number will look like A-0817R. These Lifters have a Leak Down on the lower end
of the scale from 8 to 20 seconds. In the performance application these lifter will actually
“Bleed” down and result in an effective loss of valve lift and duration at lower RPMs. These
are also referred to as “Variable Duration” Lifters and will supply a better idle quality when
using a performance cam while still getting the benefit of the upper end power over a stock
cam. As the engine increases in RPM the Bleed down effect is reduced resulting in more duration
and valve lift. Having lifters with a much smaller Leak Down range will also balance all
of the cylinders to each other. Having one cylinder with lifters having a Leak Down of 80
seconds will react and produce a different power curve than the same cylinder with a 10
second Lifter..

[Jay S]

I don’t know that I can answer the Delphi question very accurately, but I think that is correct on the hardened foot. For certain the “hardened foot” shows up on the GM .842” lifters frequently. It is likely the most common .842” lifter of the market right now, but Eaton makes a ton of lifters too. I am pretty sure Delphi does not make Mopar lifters, they come from Eaton. I think Ford may be the same way. I have never seen the parting line down at the foot on Mopar or Ford that I recall. If I had to guess I would say about all the companies that sell lifter have relationships with both Eaton and Delphi though. Depending on supply and/or cost they alternate suppliers.

I don’t know that the hardened foot is really much improvement on a Delphi. More it a different mfg process.

FWIW,…I wouldn’t trade an Eaton or a Delphi for a Hylift johnson, hylift is who builds the lifter bodies for Rhoads.

[Jay S]

I looked up the part number for a Pontiac lifter thru Mahle, it is 213-1685, it started years ago as a PerfectCircle part number. That 1951 number doesn’t appear to be from Mahle.

[KEN CROCIE]

The "R" series lifter had a positive stop,(as opposed to hairpin) retainer.

[djustice]

After some time thinking this over, i have almost made up my mind (95%) sure i will go the "financial ruin" route
I have been mailing back and forth with butler to get a butler topend kit with rollercam and edelbrock heads.
I wanted to to go with 315 cfm ported heads and a portmatced Torker II. But there seems to be a serious supply shortage on key components atleast Edelbrock stuff, The Torker II is on backorder with no eta time.
Other intakes that fit under a formula hood do not have enough material to portmatch.

I guess i am not going to feel/miss the difference with 280-ish cfm heads and intake that is the alternative for Regular street driving?