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Old 12-25-2021, 02:56 PM
Randy Allen Randy Allen is offline
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Default Torquer 2 (Victor) EFI Power Limits

I have a Torquer II(PN 50565) EFI manifold and wondered if anyone had tested this manifold using larger injectors (such as 80 lb. PICO injectors) to see if it would support between 600-750 horsepower. No room for the Super Victor version. I know this ships with the Pro-Flo system with small injectors to support 450 horsepower but wondered what it’s upper limit is?

Thanks for the assistance.

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Old 12-25-2021, 05:58 PM
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Part of the limit will depend on how efficient the engine uses fuel to make power.

A general mid-level would be .500 BSFC.
BSFC is pounds of fuel per HP per hour.

Engine at 450 HP * .5 = 225 pounds of fuel per hour.

If you have 8 injectors, 225 / 8 = 28.125 pounds per hour for each injector at 100% duty cycle.

You can't have 100% duty cycle, more like 80% max.

1 / .8 = 1.25 factor

28.125 * 1.25 = target injector pounds per hour.

More efficient engines will have lower BSFC,, say .450 or .400.

Could be possible the EFI control module may have a pre-set max allowable duty cycle.. say 75% or other.

Also consider capacity of the systems fuel pump..

Can't just run a crazy huge injector, otherwise it may not be possible to lean engine enough (low pulse width) at low RPM, low throttle.

Another limit could be throttle body max airflow CFM.


Last edited by pastry_chef; 12-25-2021 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 12-26-2021, 10:32 AM
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Randy the limiting factor could be the intake looking at those HP numbers.I have a T2 intake on my pump gas motor in the 78 and using mph calculators place it as 550 HP, so it might make it there. I massaged mine up the runners a lot.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
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Old 12-26-2021, 11:24 AM
Randy Allen Randy Allen is offline
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Appreciate the feedback from everyone. Skip, you were spot on with my concern; will the intake manifold flow enough to support around a 340 cfm head to reach up into the 700's on a 505-535? If the runners can be ported so it doesn't choke down the power then the expense is less than buying a NorthWind, and doing a EFI conversion (David B. already gave me a ROM on the conversion cost). How much porting can be done or am I just throwing dollars at porting and better off just doing the NorthWind conversion?

The controller is a Holley HP ECU with a 1000 cfm throttle body so controlling a 80-88cc injector that calculates out to safely support over 750 horsepower isn't so much the issue. Fuel will be supplied by a 450lph pump(or whatever configuration Rick's decides to do since it's a custom fuel tank). The fuel system will be overbuilt.

Skip, since this goes on a '77 CanAm, I know there is a drop base for the Northwind (use Performer RPM drop base) but what is required for the T2 EFI?

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Old 12-26-2021, 07:47 PM
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Mine is on 320 cfm KRE CNC Edelbrock round ports.I would think too drop a base would hit the fuel rails.

Then you have to figure are you going to hook 700 hp!

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
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Old 12-26-2021, 11:32 PM
Randy Allen Randy Allen is offline
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Thanks Skip; I was thinking 340 on E-heads or Hi-ports but I’ll let them tell me what cfm I need for the end goal. Its probably closer to 380 on a 535 to get a decent idle. I hadn’t thought about the fuel rails and a drop base but have a feeling it requires a Northwind and Performer RPM drop base; I’ll have to ask. It’s basically a step-plan to build the existing iron 468 top-end so when an aluminum 505-535 short block is build the whole top-end doesn’t have to be done again.

I’m not really worried about “hooking” other than coming out of a corner as it’s primary street/AutoX/road racing & open road racing. It’s caged to to pass tech up to 180 on a road course but with a T56; it would be pretty useless drag racing with the suspension setup(custom 3-link with Ford 9, negative 1-degree of camber on housing, cambered full floating axles, JRI coil overs; C7 hubs at each corner with C6 Z51 brakes). I can adjust the coil overs to the softest street setting but it’s built to corner. If it does hook it shouldn’t break; just another car with bad ET’s and high mph. I’m just trying to remain Pontiac powered and not be embarrassed by the ‘67-69 Camaros and Firebirds running LSA’s, LT4’s and LT5’s. It gets old real fast having to pull over to be passed.

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Old 12-27-2021, 10:08 AM
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Sounds bad ass Randy. Can you post pics? Thanks

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Old 12-27-2021, 10:31 AM
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If you are worried about hood clearance High port add another 3/4-1" height.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
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Old 12-27-2021, 01:25 PM
Randy Allen Randy Allen is offline
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Skip, I’m not clear. Will the T2 EFI fit under the shaker without a drop base? Butler told me the Northwind fits with a Performer RPM drop base.

I should be able to post pics in a few weeks. The custom 3-link components and housing just arrived as did the full SpeedTech front suspension. The fab shop should pull it over this week. Is there a section on the forum for “Project Builds”?

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Old 12-27-2021, 02:27 PM
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Just saying a Northwind is taller that a T2.
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...=intake+height

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
The Following User Says Thank You to Skip Fix For This Useful Post:
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Old 12-27-2021, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Allen View Post
I have a Torquer II(PN 50565) EFI manifold and wondered if anyone had tested this manifold using larger injectors (such as 80 lb. PICO injectors) to see if it would support between 600-750 horsepower. No room for the Super Victor version. I know this ships with the Pro-Flo system with small injectors to support 450 horsepower but wondered what it’s upper limit is?

Thanks for the assistance.
Not sure what the limit would be, but I have a T2 efi that was cnc ported by Dave at SD Performance, along with his 340 cfm Eheads. On a 9:1 compression 505ci, n/a with a carb, it dyno'd at 586hp @ 5700rpm. But, I'm running it with the Holley Dominator EFI, 120 lbs injectors and a 91mm turbo. I haven't had it on a chassis dyno, but at 14 lbs of boost it went 10.34 @ 135 mph. That's at 4700 lbs. race weight.

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'64 Grand Prix, Pump gas, 529ci., CV-1 Heads, Holley Dominator EFI. - Single turbo in progress..

'70 Trans Am, Ram Air III 400 - 4 speed.
  #12  
Old 12-27-2021, 06:54 PM
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A friend borrowed my T2 and put it on his Vortech supercharged 474 in his 64 Tempest. I believe it's in the 3900 lb range and he ran close to 145 mph with it. It just has a port match to a 2.3X1.2 port size. Otherwise it's unported. I know its boosted but it was making some power with the T2.

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Old 12-28-2021, 10:07 AM
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I run that 50565 intake with a PTFB drop base & it clears the rails. The accufab TB has a 1" spacer under it & above it. REcently picked up Wilson's T?B which is taller & should eliminate one of the spacers.

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Old 12-28-2021, 11:01 AM
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guess it depends if the PICO injectors are short or tall? When I made my injection set up in 08...there was NO WAY a tall injector was going to clear ANYTHING without leaning it outward toward the valve covers. I went with the 36# SHORT pico's and barely have clearance for the linkage.

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Old 12-28-2021, 11:30 AM
Randy Allen Randy Allen is offline
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Thanks for the replies; the T2 EFI definitely supports in excess of 750 horsepower on a boosted application but unfortunately I can’t run a boosted application due to packaging(weight distribution eliminates front mount turbos or a supercharger and a single low-mount on the PS is a fabrication rabbit hole; the 73-77 firewall clearance for a down pipe is horrible). I would prefer to go boosted but there is no Pontiac option(whereas I could buy a crate LS7 dry sump engine and do a TT setup with readily available parts).

Kelvin, thanks for the N/A dyno numbers. Was there any indication on the dyno that the intake was limiting power? The assumption is that you used a camshaft profile set up for boost with the 9:1 compression but if the heads or intake were at their flow limits it probably wouldn’t matter.

Hopefully someone has tested some 345+ to 400 cfm High or Wide ports on a 505-535 with the intake to find out it’s limits.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

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Old 12-28-2021, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Allen View Post
Thanks Skip; I was thinking 340 on E-heads or Hi-ports but I’ll let them tell me what cfm I need for the end goal. Its probably closer to 380 on a 535 to get a decent idle. I hadn’t thought about the fuel rails and a drop base but have a feeling it requires a Northwind and Performer RPM drop base; I’ll have to ask. It’s basically a step-plan to build the existing iron 468 top-end so when an aluminum 505-535 short block is build the whole top-end doesn’t have to be done again.

I’m not really worried about “hooking” other than coming out of a corner as it’s primary street/AutoX/road racing & open road racing. It’s caged to to pass tech up to 180 on a road course but with a T56; it would be pretty useless drag racing with the suspension setup(custom 3-link with Ford 9, negative 1-degree of camber on housing, cambered full floating axles, JRI coil overs; C7 hubs at each corner with C6 Z51 brakes). I can adjust the coil overs to the softest street setting but it’s built to corner. If it does hook it shouldn’t break; just another car with bad ET’s and high mph. I’m just trying to remain Pontiac powered and not be embarrassed by the ‘67-69 Camaros and Firebirds running LSA’s, LT4’s and LT5’s. It gets old real fast having to pull over to be passed.
I went with Butler 340 cfm heads. I too had clearance concerns and wanted to use my Torker II but because of the size of of the intake runners on the heads, welding (adding material) and modifications would have been required to get the intake to match up with the heads. I did go with the Northwind and was able to get a 662 average torque between 4400-5900 rpm with max torque of 702 at 4475. The thing idles surprisingly smooth. This was also with a Holley Sniper Xflow.

The Northwind is a bit taller than the Torker II...I have not put it into the car yet so fitment under the hood is still in question.

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Old 12-28-2021, 11:43 AM
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Adding material is no big deal to the top of the runners.

On my T2 EFI intake the injectors cant in towards plenum and why a standard length injector will not work as fuel rails will hit the plenum.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #18  
Old 12-28-2021, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Allen View Post

Kelvin, thanks for the N/A dyno numbers. Was there any indication on the dyno that the intake was limiting power? The assumption is that you used a camshaft profile set up for boost with the 9:1 compression but if the heads or intake were at their flow limits it probably wouldn’t matter.

I don't really think the intake was limiting any power. But, I wasn't really trying to do any tuning, so to speak. The dyno I was on didn't have any efi capabilities, so I just took the throttle body off and bolted on a carb and headers to break it in and make a few baseline pulls. I didn't make sense to try to do any tuning with the carb since I was gonna run the Holley efi in the car. So, I mainly just played with the timing a little bit.

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2009 Norwalk KRE Quick 16 Winner!!!

'61 Tempest wagon 2Dr, '05 GTO LS2 powered, 12.39 @ 109 mph at Drag week 2015 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsVRzMXERtA

'64 Grand Prix, Pump gas, 529ci., CV-1 Heads, Holley Dominator EFI. - Single turbo in progress..

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Old 12-28-2021, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
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Adding material is no big deal to the top of the runners.

On my T2 EFI intake the injectors cant in towards plenum and why a standard length injector will not work as fuel rails will hit the plenum.
Mine are straight up and down

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Old 12-28-2021, 08:23 PM
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Maybe the newer version? I think the newer versions use a different fuel rail hold down also.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
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