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Old 05-10-2022, 10:05 AM
Karl Rich Karl Rich is offline
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Default Butler 744 Roller Cam

Don’t think I posted this right yesterday, not getting the responses I through I would. Any one running the 744 roller Comp Cam Butler is selling? Butler suggested this cam for a 400 build I am working on. 30 over, Torker II, Holley 750, headers,-17cc pistons, 3:08 and currently a stock convertor. How is it preforming for you? Does it have a choppy ideal, like hot for teacher?

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Old 05-10-2022, 10:46 AM
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Old 05-10-2022, 10:57 AM
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I'm interested in what people have to say about this. That cam is like a lower lift version of the XR276HR but with a wider LSA. Seems like lots of people have been disappointed by the 276. But I think it just depends on what your goal is for power. Considering that the RAIV made around 425 actual hp, I doubt you'd get more than that, depending on your heads and CR.

Also the wider LSA will smooth out the idle. A "Hot for Teacher" idle would be a pretty hot cam with lots of compression idling at about 1200 rpm or more from the sound of it.

Which motors actually used the 744? The early 69 RAIII MT cars and the SD 455. Any others?

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Old 05-10-2022, 11:39 AM
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Pontiac released it in '66 for Tripower cars so long as they had manual trans and appropriate rear gears.
In '67 it was put on RA I cars with stick and 4.33 gears. In '68 they put it on 4 speed RA and HO cars with 3.90 or 4.33 gears.
Supposedly in '69 an exec was driving a new GTO with the 744 in cold weather and it ran poorly when cold; he ordered it be dropped and only the 068 cam be used from then on.

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Old 05-10-2022, 12:21 PM
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If you just HAVE to run an HR with a set of unported D-ports, with mild CR, then it should be a pretty decent choice.

Somewhat similar to the HFT I run in my own stock-headed 455 (in signature). My HFT is 222/242 @ .050:, .443/.435 lift, on a 116lsa.

You can hear on this video https://youtu.be/H0UPbZH9wfY

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Old 05-10-2022, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Rich View Post
Don’t think I posted this right yesterday, not getting the responses I through I would. Any one running the 744 roller Comp Cam Butler is selling? Butler suggested this cam for a 400 build I am working on. 30 over, Torker II, Holley 750, headers,-17cc pistons, 3:08 and currently a stock convertor. How is it preforming for you? Does it have a choppy ideal, like hot for teacher?
I forgot to add that I’m running 62 heads that I ported myself. “Learning As I Go”.

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Old 05-10-2022, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
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I forgot to add that I’m running 62 heads that I ported myself. “Learning As I Go”.
Ported heads typically see most of the additional flow at higher lifts. But if you do not actually open the valves to where that extra flow exists, then you are not going to realize the full benefits of that porting.

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'67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust

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Old 05-10-2022, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
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Ported heads typically see most of the additional flow at higher lifts. But if you do not actually open the valves to where that extra flow exists, then you are not going to realize the full benefits of that porting.
A good set of heads sees flow at low and mid lift too.. not sure where u came up with only high lift being the result..
Mid and low lift is where u want good numbers.. the engine sees those several times in a cycle

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Old 05-10-2022, 02:59 PM
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Jim Hand's reported CFM of stock 6X heads vs. Dave Bisschop's reported cfm of his CNC ported 6X heads

Admittedly, Jim's data stopped at 0.550" lift, I extended it to .600"
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'67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust

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Old 05-10-2022, 11:08 PM
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To help the OP’s question...
There’s a similar question, posted here about the “roller” version of the 041....

Butler introduced these cams, not long ago. I’m thinking it will be a while before many get into circulation, responses to your question may not be readily available, right now....

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Old 05-11-2022, 07:08 AM
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"I'm interested in what people have to say about this. That cam is like a lower lift version of the XR276HR but with a wider LSA. Seems like lots of people have been disappointed by the 276."

The XR276HR cam was Butler's "go-to" cam for decades. It's a "turd" in a 455 build. I've had quite a few poor running 455's in here for custom tuning using that cam and it's NOT a good choice for them. I even had a 455 in here with aluminum Edelbrock heads and that cam that pinged on pump gas! The owner absolutely HATED it, didn't make chit for power either.

Had a 455 Super Duty come in here with that cam in it, another "turd" that I couldn't get to run right. The owner had installed domeed pistons to get it to 9.5 to 1 and it pinged EVERYWHERE but at idle and NOTHING I could do about it. By the time I retarded the timing enough to get it to stop pinging it wouldn't outrun a Dodge Neon with two plug wires pulled off of it!

Then I got a 1971 455 HO car in here with a 455 using that cam. The idle quality was "quirky", stinky exhaust, and it just didn't run good anyplace. Threw a little power at you in the mid-range but DONE by 4500rpm's.

The only cam I've had more complaints from from customers have been the XE268 and XE274 flat cams in similar builds. Right on the dyno I witnessed a very well prepared 455 with 6X-4 heads crank out a whopping 412hp with the XE274 cam. It made decent peak torque, but clear down to 412ft lbs at 4900rpm's where it made peak HP. What a TURD for a 455 build. My near identical 455 with the Crower 60919 cam made 455hp and 540tq and still making nearly 500ft lbs at 4900rpm's with a much broader/flatter torque curve.

I made Butler aware of the issues with the XR276HR cam and sent them the dyno sheets below. Got a phone call directly from them, and after a long discussion about these things guess what? The started offering their cams with 112 and 114LSA's, and they flat work!

I was critisized publically on here for making that comment like I was trying to take credit for the improvements. Not in the least. My motives here are to improve the hobby and help folks make better decisions with these things. If I "pushed" Butler's to go that direction and it's working out well it's a good thing for the hobby. If they just stumbled in that direction all by themselves, that 's fine to as we now have some EXCELLENT custom ground cams to choose from........FWIW.....

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Old 05-11-2022, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
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"I'm interested in what people have to say about this. That cam is like a lower lift version of the XR276HR but with a wider LSA. Seems like lots of people have been disappointed by the 276."

The XR276HR cam was Butler's "go-to" cam for decades. It's a "turd" in a 455 build. I've had quite a few poor running 455's in here for custom tuning using that cam and it's NOT a good choice for them. I even had a 455 in here with aluminum Edelbrock heads and that cam that pinged on pump gas! The owner absolutely HATED it, didn't make chit for power either.

Had a 455 Super Duty come in here with that cam in it, another "turd" that I couldn't get to run right. The owner had installed domeed pistons to get it to 9.5 to 1 and it pinged EVERYWHERE but at idle and NOTHING I could do about it. By the time I retarded the timing enough to get it to stop pinging it wouldn't outrun a Dodge Neon with two plug wires pulled off of it!

Then I got a 1971 455 HO car in here with a 455 using that cam. The idle quality was "quirky", stinky exhaust, and it just didn't run good anyplace. Threw a little power at you in the mid-range but DONE by 4500rpm's.

The only cam I've had more complaints from from customers have been the XE268 and XE274 flat cams in similar builds. Right on the dyno I witnessed a very well prepared 455 with 6X-4 heads crank out a whopping 412hp with the XE274 cam. It made decent peak torque, but clear down to 412ft lbs at 4900rpm's where it made peak HP. What a TURD for a 455 build. My near identical 455 with the Crower 60919 cam made 455hp and 540tq and still making nearly 500ft lbs at 4900rpm's with a much broader/flatter torque curve.

I made Butler aware of the issues with the XR276HR cam and sent them the dyno sheets below. Got a phone call directly from them, and after a long discussion about these things guess what? The started offering their cams with 112 and 114LSA's, and they flat work!

I was critisized publically on here for making that comment like I was trying to take credit for the improvements. Not in the least. My motives here are to improve the hobby and help folks make better decisions with these things. If I "pushed" Butler's to go that direction and it's working out well it's a good thing for the hobby. If they just stumbled in that direction all by themselves, that 's fine to as we now have some EXCELLENT custom ground cams to choose from........FWIW.....

So you went from a XR276H to an "OF" Old Faithful and the conclusion is the change in LSA is what made all the difference?

Stan

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Old 05-11-2022, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Rich View Post
Don’t think I posted this right yesterday, not getting the responses I through I would. Any one running the 744 roller Comp Cam Butler is selling? Butler suggested this cam for a 400 build I am working on. 30 over, Torker II, Holley 750, headers,-17cc pistons, 3:08 and currently a stock convertor. How is it preforming for you? Does it have a choppy ideal, like hot for teacher?
If the 400 has decent compression, the cam is degreed properly, and depending on how you set the carb and distributor up, this cam in a 400 would be very streetable and maybe a very mild lope to it, but certainly nothing radical and should produce good vacuum. Again, if you're running decent compression. 224/236 @ .050 on a 115 LSA isn't aggressive.

I've run the Summit 224/234 @ .050 on a 114 LSA in a 428 that had 9.7:1 compression and it was baby butt smooth and easily made 16 inches of vacuum up at 5000 ft elevation. In a smaller 400 with close to 10:1 compression and set up correctly the cam would hardly be noticeable.

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Old 05-11-2022, 11:07 AM
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Stan, it has been pointed out many times going from the 224 degrees intake duration to 236 degrees intake duration is certainty not "apples-to-apples".
Most would expect a significant increase as noted no matter what the lobe separation is.

.

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Old 05-11-2022, 03:15 PM
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OK. I'm going way out on a limb here (since I'm not an expert) to say that if you want an aggressive cam sound at idle, and you still want street driveability, then something like a 041 flat tappet cam with Rhoads lifters, or a HR 041 type cam. I say that based on the ability of the Rhoads lifters and the HR cam to mellow the effects of a bigger cam at idle and still give you the performance and idle sound. Although, from what I have read, I would guess and say that the HR cam would give you more of the idle you want than the FT with Rhoads? Still ain't gonna be "hot for teacher" though. I don't think you can really get that with a reasonable street motor.

Just my thoughts. Still learning. If I'm wrong about anything or everything, please say so.

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Old 05-11-2022, 04:12 PM
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I'm running the 276 in a stroked 350, so far only on the dyno. Hopefully in the car later this summer. At least on the dyno stand, I was pleased with both idle quality and sound. My performance issues were due to a sticky air valve and overrich secondaries on the Q-Jet.

This is the link to the last pull of the day as the tech tweaked the load program to allow the secondaries to come in a little smoother. Engine would idle all the way down to 400 RPM at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfso2r9udv8

Testing was done using Shell Premium and timing set to 12 degrees initial with 22 mechanical in at 3200 RPM.

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Old 05-11-2022, 04:55 PM
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"So you went from a XR276H to an "OF" Old Faithful and the conclusion is the change in LSA is what made all the difference?"

No, LSA was only a small part of the actual increase.

When I put this information up last time the entire thread went sideways. I haven't forgotten Stan that you teamed up with that very poorly informed individual from Canada that doesn't have any more time doing this stuff than I spent on the crapper this morning. The water got muddied pretty quickly and the thread got canned before any of the readers could learn from these things.

Setting that aside take a look at the facts. Understand that the folks that built and dyno'd the engine were professionals, own a speed shop, machine shop, dyno, and decades of engine building experience. I only got involved because I supplied them with parts and information on how to set up the Quadrajet. The cam selection came from a "tech" at Comp Cams combined with the shop owner/builders experience with Big Block Chevy and Ford 460 variants. (Two pretty big mistakes right there as it's unlikely that the Tech at Comp had any direct experience with the 455 Pontiac engine and it was the first Pontiac engine the builder had been involved with)

The engine builder ported and flowed the #96 heads to 250cfm. The compression ratio was 9.3 to 1. In most cases that would have been fine for pump gas however the "small" cam on a tight LSA with really good flowing heads made TOO MUCH cylinder pressure too early in the RPM range so they were getting audible detonation on the dyno anything past 26 degrees total timing.

That is when I got involved as the phone rang and everyone involved right down to the guy taking out the trash was blaming the Q-jet. I told the engine builder/dyno operator to forget about the carb and install a different camshaft. The phone pretty much went silent at that point, he heard me out, but decided instead to install their dyno-mule Holley 850cfm carb, crank the timing up to 34 degrees and continue the pulls. They pinged the engine so hard it blew up on the very next pull!

So I get another call. Now he's listening and wants cam specs for a different cam. The "little" XR276HR cam made so much cylinder pressure they couldn't get past 28 degrees total timing without HEAVY detonation. So I gave them specs of 289/308 @ .006", 236/246 @ .050" and told him to have it ground on a 114LSA and set the ICL at 110 degrees. So basically a duplicate of SD's "Old Faithful" cam on a wider LSA. Keep in mind here that cam would have worked just fine on a tighter LSA, but with the compression clear down at 9.3 to 1 we were also looking for decent idle quality. That cam on a 112LSA starts to produce "soggy" idle quality and low speed response below 10 to 1 compression so 9.3 is a bit less than desirable.

Personally I would have rather had the compression at 10.3 to 1 and had the cam ground on a 112 LSA with the ICL a little further ahead, but that's now what we ended up doing here.

Now that the engine was able to take more timing without detonation it was also able to make MORE power. So the dramatic power increase cam in part from a larger cam, with a good portion also coming from being able to run "optimum" timing without detonation.

If you were to do dyno sims or basically look at the two cams on paper in the that build the XR276 would potentially make close to 470-480hp and another 20-30 ft lbs torque However without being able to effectively manage pump gas that simply was never going to happen.

So there ya go Stan, you now have the "rest of the story".

I'll add here that the only reason I knew they were dead in the water with the XR276 cam is that I've had 455's brought here using that cam and ran into the exact same issues. The example mentioned in my first post was a very well prepared 455 Super Duty engine. At 9.5 compression it would NOT take more than 26 degrees total timing. It would NOT take any vacuum advance whatsoever or pinged at light part throttle as well. I tuned on it for hours, adding fuel, pulling out timing and installing the strongest distributor springs known to man to keep the timing out till higher RPM's and it didn't help at all. That engine pinged EVERYWHERE but at idle, and pounded like SLEDGEHAMMERS at full throttle with any more than 28 degrees total timing in it.............Cliff

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Old 05-11-2022, 05:35 PM
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"Keep in mind here that cam would have worked just fine on a tighter LSA, but with the compression clear down at 9.3 to 1 we were also looking for decent idle quality. That cam on a 112LSA starts to produce "soggy" idle quality and low speed response below 10 to 1 compression so 9.3 is a bit less than desirable."

Thank you Cliff. Exactly you increased the LSA to reduce the overlay to improve idle quality.

Stan

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Old 05-11-2022, 07:09 PM
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It does a bit more than just improve idle quality.

It spreads out power and pushes peak power higher in the RPM range. This REDUCES octane requirements, allows us to run more timing, and make more power at every RPM.

Less overlap also improves vacuum, throttle response, less stinky exhaust, and improved street manners, all else being equal.

The dyno charts also show how much more power is made at every RPM..........

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Old 05-11-2022, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff R View Post
It does a bit more than just improve idle quality.

It spreads out power and pushes peak power higher in the RPM range. This REDUCES octane requirements, allows us to run more timing, and make more power at every RPM.

Less overlap also improves vacuum, throttle response, less stinky exhaust, and improved street manners, all else being equal.

The dyno charts also show how much more power is made at every RPM..........
Looking at changes in LSA only really matters when using the same lobes.

Since you keep going back to that split dyno and are trying to compare grapes and grapefruits, then lets do that.

The smaller 276 / 282 on a 110 LSA has 59 degrees of overlap

The "OF" is 289 / 306 and with a 114 LSA has 69.5 degrees of overlap

Stan

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