[opeliac]

What studs have you guys found that will work on our Pontiacs? I have new Edelbrocks that will be dry decked with top fuel hoops...I'm curious if anyone has found a good option for studs.

[mgarblik]

ARP 190-4305 are the typical 1/2" studs used on the later E-heads. I don't think any other brand of stud or fastener will improve the clamp load on the head. Head gasket failure or lifting of the head will be a function of the tune-up and the stiffness of the head. Edelbrock heads are really light weight. They did improve the column thickness and height of the later castings than the first few runs. It would be great to increase the stud diameter size to 9/16". But I don't think they will fit through the E-head bolt column. Not sure about that. One thing you could do that might help some is to machine the holes for nice thick step washers. That will keep the aluminum from crushing in around the studs at the top. We did that and it was an improvement. Good luck with it.

[johnta1]

ARP 2000 studs

Thread by GTO George.

[mysticmissle]

What is a top fuel hoop?

[25stevem]

Yes, what is that?

[mgarblik]

I assumed he was talking about the gas filled fire rings that have been discussed on here a few times. I think All Pontiac may have had them available at some point. They were beyond our pay grade for our funny car, so we didn't use them. Our billet heads were so stiff, they were not needed. Could be a sealing improvement with a light head and 1/2" studs I think. You could talk to a metallurgist at ARP, but I can't imagine a quality 1/2" stud stretching at all at 100 ft. Lbs. So using an even better stud to gain clamp load really won't do anything. At some point, your just going to smash the soft aluminum head clamping surface and/or collapse the aluminum column the stud passes through and warp the head deck surface. It's a complex issue to solve on a fairly large head with 10 smallish fasteners. 1200 HP and higher, the problem gets allot tougher to deal with. Step washers and 9/16" studs were a huge improvement for us. Super stiff billet head was the final solution. Realize that's not a viable solution for many applications.

[mgarblik]

I have a little more technical info that may be of some help? This is from the ARP 2023 technical manual I just got from PRI. There are no stocking numbers for any stud kits for Pontiac V-8's other than 8740 material. GTO George had special order studs made just for him, which can be done. It's expensive and with the huge COVID related backlog, I bet a year wait would not be abnormal. Tensile strength of 1/2" 8740 studs is 190,000 PSI. Maximum clamp load achieved at 110 ft.Lbs with ARP lube. IF you could get ARP 2000 material studs, the tensile strength for 1/2" studs is 220,000 PSI. Maximum clamp load achieved at 140 ft. Lbs with ARP lube. Maximum clamp load at ideal torque yields:
8740 studs: 16,391 lbs. ARP 2000 studs" 20,639 lbs.

So it looks like a great idea on paper. But IMO, there is no way your going to put 140 ft. lbs on a 1/2" ARP stud in an Edelbrock head. It will crush and bend like an empty pack of cigarettes. We could not remove an E-head torqued to 110 ft. lbs. It crushed the holes around the studs and had to be pried off. That's when we installed step washers. I don't think 140 ft. lbs. is a real option. If you can only go 110 ft. lbs., 8740 studs should be just fine.

Just for reference, a 9/16" stud, 8740 material will clamp to 21,220 lbs.

[opeliac]

I will have step washers also...The studs may not prove to be a problem, but i'm trying to cover as many bases as possible.

As for the top fuel hoops...They are solid rings(not filled with anything)...They are approx .080 tall, with .050 going into one surface, and the remaining .030 pressing into the gasket...Basically the same concept as a wire o-ring and a receiver groove, except there is more crushed in which makes it harder for the combustion to get past it...

[opeliac]

I forgot to address the All-Pontiac sealing rings...I was interested in those back in the 90s when Marty was doing them...I bought a set from Frank, but got scared of trying them...

The hoops have been used with success in many other 10 bolt headed engines, so thats what I am doing too.

[mgarblik]

Got it. Sorry for incorrect info. on the sealing rings. Many people forget lots of engines have made big, big HP with 10 head bolts. 392 Hemi, Ford FE, Ford SB come to mind right away.

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Got it. Sorry for incorrect info. on the sealing rings. Many people forget lots of engines have made big, big HP with 10 head bolts. 392 Hemi, Ford FE, Ford SB come to mind right away.

I know my goals are within reach...I'm just figuring any little bit extra cant hurt...Its finally at BES, so hopefully I can make heat next season.

[chiefbigb]

Any pics of this system

[Tandyman]

Is this what is being talked about here ?
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/202...gh-horsepower/

Glenn

[opeliac]

Originally Posted by Tandyman

Is this what is being talked about here ?
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/202...gh-horsepower/

Glenn

Yes, that is it...

[chiefbigb]

Interesting read. Thanks

[mgarblik]

Thanks for the link. That looks like a good deal if the machining can be done properly. We took the "poor man's" approach to sealing our nitro funny car heads. Similar to the hoop article, we machined the soft aluminum head to hold the stainless steel wire. Then machined the hard cylinder sleeve flange with the wider receiver groove. I had the wire protrude .016-.019" from the head. Then tightened the head to block with with 9/16" studs to 135 ft. lbs. This pushed the wire deep into the soft copper and produced a strong step-seal into the cylinder flange. Only possible leak path was the tiny gap from not having a continuous ring, (hoop). I did see evidence of tiny leakage past the gap, but nothing to fail the gasket. I diamond lapped the wire ends to .005-.007" end gap. Low cost approach with pretty good results. BTW, putting the wire in the block is often referred to as the "West Coast" method of O-ring sealing. Putting the wire in the head is called the "East Coast" method. Putting the wire in the softer material makes sense to me. In theory, once compressed, it shouldn't make any difference.