[Father&Son73T/A]

Looks nice;
http://adcache.collectorcartrader.co...6/90091386.htm

[bird72]

Spoiler... cringe.... and later gen spoiler ends to boot it looks, double cringe..... otherwise I would take it in a flash

Everyone that buys a 70 Formula sans spoiler needs to repeat mantra over and over "I will not drill my car, I will not drill my car"...

[2manyT/A'S]

Originally Posted by bird72

Spoiler... cringe.... and later gen spoiler ends to boot it looks, double cringe..... otherwise I would take it in a flash

Everyone that buys a 70 Formula sans spoiler needs to repeat mantra over and over "I will not drill my car, I will not drill my car"...

I'm with you ALL THE WAY on that one ,BRO!

Rear spoilers on 70-73 non-Tran's ams just look GAY.

They need all the other GAK/spoilers to look RIGHT.

[bird72]

Well I do like them on 71-73 Formula's. My 72 did not come with one, I added a correct early one, but I don't think I'd drill car again if I could rewind 10 years. But 70's are so rare to drill one when it never should have one is a crime. Like adding a whammy bar to a 1959 Les Paul, just don't do it man.........

[2manyT/A'S]

That IS a NICE Formula 400,but the price seems a tad high for a NON-original engine car.
For the LIFE of me I can NEVER figure out why they MIX std. & deluxe interior parts.
To me,that is a HUGE stop sign on a HIGH DOLLAR car.
You really wonder what ELSE they might have mixed up,that you can't see.

[Tazzz2]

You know a friend brought up a really good point to me the other day.....We all look at these cars and comment about originality and not doing any mods....not personalizing the car,,,keep it all original right......

What happened to the roots of the hobby, you know modify and personalize the ride. I'm not suggesting that a rare #'s SD TA or a 71 H.O. be modified,,,,but heck if you like your car, do what you want with it.....The high dollar pursuit has really put a big hold on just having fun with these cars.

I for one plan to take a 1970 Formula 400 and do the sac-religious move of painting it the wrong color and changing the interior from Sandle-wood to White.....Heck I'm even going to put an early rear spoiler on the car. You know by the time I'm finished the car will have gone from Gold to Admiralty Blue, the interior will be done in 1970 deluxe white (with 1971 deluxe white comfort weave material in the center sections), and the whole drive line less the 12 bolt rear end will be replaced....It will have a pump gas motor specifically designed to run on the street and most likely have a Tremic 5speed tko 600....I'll most likely add classic air to the car and have a paint job the factory could never dream of putting on a production car due to cost of prep (block sanding and show fitting).

When finished most people that are not Pontiac enthusiasts would think it's a really nicely restored Firebird,,,who knows they may even know it's a Formula if they kind of like cars or had a friend that had one back in the day.....I guess my real point to be taken from all this is, a car should reflect what you like,,,not what makes it valuable or correct to a hand full of people. If that represents stock,,,,,great......If not, thats cool too.

[fbirdinconcord]

That car has been for sale for about a year. Originality always trumps when it comes to selling a car.

To that point, I agree with you 100% Tazzz2 with one exception. Trying to sell a modified car. I am a car dealer that sells quite a few classics a year. I have been doing this for about 20 years and have handled some incredible cars. It never fails that someone with $50k in receipts for work on a modified car (even if it makes it a better driver) can't understand why his car is only worth $18k and a stock restored car is worth $30k.

It all comes down to why people buy these muscle cars. People buying for investment want stock and nothing else. A commodity is much easier to trade when you take anything that may be subjective out of the picture. This is the correct color, engine, trans, etc. They will always spend more money.

People buying for fun may appreciate the updates, color, trans, etc. but will not pay close to investors money. They are usually weekenders with a limited car budget.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the modified cars as long as the owners are willing to lower their expectations when it comes time to sell. You certainly can make them more fun to drive. But, not everybody may think that teal street rod with the tan interior and $125k in receipts is really worth $50k. They are already figuring the cost of a repaint before they even make an offer. (this scenario really happened to me and we finally sold the car for $32k)

To sum up the ridiculously long post I will say there is nothing wrong with modifying these classics and I will be putting a 4 speed in my 71 Formula 400 but I already know it is going to cost me in the long run.

[Tazzz2]

Originally Posted by fbirdinconcord

That car has been for sale for about a year. Originality always trumps when it comes to selling a car.

To that point, I agree with you 100% Tazzz2 with one exception. Trying to sell a modified car. I am a car dealer that sells quite a few classics a year. I have been doing this for about 20 years and have handled some incredible cars. It never fails that someone with $50k in receipts for work on a modified car (even if it makes it a better driver) can't understand why his car is only worth $18k and a stock restored car is worth $30k.

It all comes down to why people buy these muscle cars. People buying for investment want stock and nothing else. A commodity is much easier to trade when you take anything that may be subjective out of the picture. This is the correct color, engine, trans, etc. They will always spend more money.

People buying for fun may appreciate the updates, color, trans, etc. but will not pay close to investors money. They are usually weekenders with a limited car budget.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the modified cars as long as the owners are willing to lower their expectations when it comes time to sell. You certainly can make them more fun to drive. But, not everybody may think that teal street rod with the tan interior and $125k in receipts is really worth $50k. They are already figuring the cost of a repaint before they even make an offer. (this scenario really happened to me and we finally sold the car for $32k)

To sum up the ridiculously long post I will say there is nothing wrong with modifying these classics and I will be putting a 4 speed in my 71 Formula 400 but I already know it is going to cost me in the long run.

Very well put....Investors pay more for originality most of the time,,,,however, it is interesting to see how many more of us (even professionals like you) are really saying to heck with it,,,I'm gonna have it my way ;-) Hell it's my dream car/s lol


I think it's going to be really interesting to see how the market/investors re-act over time to the whole pro-touring/resto-mod type approaches to these cars...We're all quick to say keep it original, yet when we need to hit the brakes, it sure feels good with updated braking systems....Same with suspensions,tires and interior comforts (air systems etc.) lol

So long as your having fun that is the key thing....and that shouldn't ever change ;-)

[speedfreq]

Tazzz2,
I have been back and forth in my mind about that very issue. My final decision is that I loved these cars back in the day because they were "hotrods" that word to me means a car you love to drive and modify to make it your own. Your totally correct, the high dollar market has driven people to push for originality for the sake of money and I don't really blame them, but if your true intention is to enjoy your car instead of make a profit then if it makes you happy, go with it. I really think you can do both if you don't go too nuts. Lots of vendors are making items that don't require you to alter the vehicles core originality to install the product, and if the next owner wants to go back to original it's as easy as replacing those items with the originals. I plan to rebuild my T/A the way I want it and concurrently restore the original items I decide to replace.
Chris

[keith k]

Originally Posted by Tazzz2

I for one plan to take a 1970 Formula 400 and do the sac-religious move of painting it the wrong color and changing the interior from Sandle-wood to White......

Hey, PM me if you'll have any decent sandalwood parts you want to get rid of!

[Tazzz2]

Keith thanks for the interest, however, I'm not selling anything at this point,,heck I'm still in the buying mode.....Just showing my wife how ya really shop already roflmao.....

[RandyW]

Originally Posted by fbirdinconcord

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the modified cars as long as the owners are willing to lower their expectations when it comes time to sell.

I dissagree when that is a made as a blanket statement. There's no way my '75 base coupe wouldn't be worth more as a well done Formula or Trans Am clone, if properly done. I can also tell you from several personal experiences that many high production cars will bring considerably more money with modern drivetrains when professionally done. One of my '67 Impala Super Sport cars sold for $16k at a time when they were worth about $12k with the stock 327/'Glide. I installed a '96 Vette LT1/4L60E with the Vette fuel rail covers with most of the wiring hidden and underhood pcm installation, o/d shift indicator, etc... Total cost of the swap? $2600, plus I drove the car myself for 3+ years. With the same paint and interior, I'd won 12 trophies in 2 years, after the swap, I got 11 the first summer. Not that I care one way or another about another $10 plastic chess piece, but it points out that stock is not always king in all cases.

[Father&Son73T/A]

Ok,take 70-73 Espirit and drop a built 455,tremec,four wheel disc,etc next to a stock numbers 350 Espirit.
Yeah,the modified will pull more cash and respect.
Now,take a modded all to hell 73/74 SD or 71/72 HO car,next to an all orig numbers car and what do you think is gonna happen,see my point?

[RandyW]

I agree, but the blanket statement was made that original always commands a higher price and that is not the case, it will vary widely with the car and equipment as well as the marketplace.

[fbirdinconcord]

I made the statement based on collector grade cars like Tazzz2's 70 Formula. Of course there will always be exceptions especially the base cars. But I still believe if you add up the costs of building a modified car you will nearly always have a better return on your money(or less loss) with an original car. Not to mention how much easier it is to sell an original car than a subjective modified one.

My statements were being made concerning customers bringing in stacks of receipts due to their inability to do the work themselves so RandyW you kind of prove my point.

If a customer had a stock 67 Impala that was worth $12k and they decided they wanted to do the drivetrain upgrade you did(which sounds cool by the way) they would probably be in the finished $16k car at least $20k, probably more. Here in California you couldn't even buy the parts to do the swap for under $4k not to mention the labor. Sure you or I would buy a wrecked car for a few grand off ebay and have everything right there but remember I am talking about people who don't think that way.

Stock or modified, I sell them both. I have learned that each camp has their trenches dug and are ready for a long battle. It helps pay my bills so I just go with the flow. I know I will never win this one.

Peace

[RandyW]

I'm really not arguing your concept, you're looking at it from a certain point of view and from the Firebird Formula/Trans Am camp, I'd agree, completely. Stock is more valuable and I personally wouldn't do anything to one of them that I couldn't put back easily. But, the collecters and baby boomers that miss their Firebird, Impala SS, Chevelle, Camaro, etc... remember their 350 Camaro that they swapped the 427 into from a Caprice and how "fast and mean" it was. those guys have no problem spending waaay too much on a modified car.

"I made the statement based on collector grade cars like Tazzz2's 70 Formula."

You aren't talking to a novice in the car world, I've been driving since 1968 (legally). I've owned 37 cars that were collecter cars when I owned them, and well over 140 total (lost count a few years ago), only three were flippers, I drove, maintained and in some cases restored them. MY '67 with the Vette drivetrain was a 956/1000 car and my other '67 that I just sold Friday was a 995/1000 car. I've now owned 14 Firebirds including a '67 400 H.O. car that had 31 options from the factory and a '68 RA II convertible (WU). Several other 400 first gens, several 2nd gen TA's and one Formula as well as 3rd and fourth gen (3 total). Plus over a dozen Mopars, several Chevys and two Buicks. I'm currently putting together a '68 convertible (WQ), 4 speed, disc brake, 3.90 gear car. I understand what we're talking about and the term collector car has broadened a bunch in the last few years. The trend to spot on restoration vs restomod goes back and forth all the time, both are very viable markets with no absolute winner in volumn, if anything restomods are winning out. Now when it comes to rare and ultra rare,(Judge convertible, Yenko, COPO, Hemi 'Cuda, etc...) the original car wins hands down and by far brings the most money. But even in that market, a Hemi clone will bring more than a nice original 340 car.
I'm a Pontiac guy and would never mess with an icon type car. I wish Pontiac had been allowed to continue as a true seperate division, but they weren't. My '68 will be an unaltered from original show piece that will get little driving as bad as it hurts be to say that because I don't like trailer queens. But for my driver, I'd rather have something like my '75 with handling mods and an LS1/LS2 drivetrain.
Sorry for the ramble but just wanted you to understand that I'm not knocking your point of view, just pointing out mine.

[Tazzz2]

You gotta love it,,,,,these cars can stir so much emotion in us.......

Randy, I think your right about the extreme cars as I call them (SD's, H.O.'s Ram-air IV).....a 70 Formula that is not a ram-air car being one of them is a bit of a stretch in my opinion however.

Please understand, everything I'm doing to the car can be turned around for the purist....I just find it a shame that the creativity/fun has been stifled by perceived & hopeful values of fringe cars.... Hell have a little fun and be conscious of the fact we're only custodians of these cool cars....I lost count so long ago of how many cars I've had thats it's not even funny....The only thing that does is make it harder to find one that really turns your crank as is lol.

[oldbirds]

Originally Posted by bird72

Spoiler... cringe.... and later gen spoiler ends to boot it looks, double cringe..... otherwise I would take it in a flash

Everyone that buys a 70 Formula sans spoiler needs to repeat mantra over and over "I will not drill my car, I will not drill my car"...

I have to agree on this. Just paid extra $ to have the spoiler removed and holes filled with metal on my 70 Formula while the body and paint work was being done. The painter looked at me like I was nuts, but did an excellent job of removing the spoiler for me. The spoiler on my 71 Formula will stay, and the painter will probably think I'm confused.

[RandyW]

Originally Posted by Tazzz2

You gotta love it,,,,,these cars can stir so much emotion in us.......

I lost count so long ago of how many cars I've had thats it's not even funny....The only thing that does is make it harder to find one that really turns your crank as is lol.

That last statement has me nailed to a tee! I love cars, especially Ponchos, but I find myself going to huge gatherings and walking past an expensive, high end car to look at something like an '80 Grand Am or a '67 Riviera GS, just because they aren't written about and shoved in your face every day.

[RandyW]

I'm sorry, I know trhe styling was supposed to be "European" on the the third gen cars and the drop off tail was an Italian styling theme at the time, (late sixties when these cars were finalized), but if I own a third gen, it will have a rear spoiler. There is no right or wrong to styling, just matters of personal taste. Remember the first drawings of the second gen cars were on the board before the first '67 Firebird ever hit the showroom, so by 1970 when they did get to dealers, public taste was moving to a more muscular look. The rear spoiler was originally destined to be a Trans Am only item that was only later released to other models because of public demand.