[ponyakr]

"...Ellison said they were nothing special."

He should have known. For any here who don't know, Ellison did engine work for lots of Pontiac Stock/SS racers back in the day.

The 1st time I saw an Ellison decal on a Pontiac was on Truman Fields '68 Bird, after it won Stock @ Indy '73.

I recently saw both the Ellison & Fields names on an Angeles & McCarthy SS/IA '68 Bird. There was also an Ellison decal on the gold 2nd gen SS Bird which I think belonged to Bob Michael. It had Golden United Life on the side. IIRC, he said either his brother or brother-n-law sold that insurance.

When Truman got the '72 GTO SS sponsored deal, that car also had Ellison decals. That car was also a record holder. I assume that he used Ellison for all his Pontiac machine work, at least when he lived in that area.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Now, there's something else that's real interesting.

I have only known of 2 Stockers & 1 Super Stocker that are running 670 heads, in recent history.

LOTS more Stockers running a '68 Bird, especially in this century. The NHRA hp factor for the '68 D-port head 330hp engine has always been very similar to the '67 hp factor, as far as I know. So, I'd say maybe the open chamber #16 & #62 heads might have just as much potential as the 670 heads. Is there info proving that the 670's are better ?

There have also been lots of 4X head '74's & 6X head '77/'78's, that have run strong in Stock & SS. Many more than '67's.

"...I've heard that from a couple of Pontiac stock eliminator guys."

Just out of curiosity, were those guys running 670 head Stockers ? Unless one of 'em was Bryan Phillips, I'd don't know of any other guy who has run a 670 head Stocker, in the last 10 years. If there is one or more, I'd like to have that info.

The couple that I talked to were running 670 head combo's in later model pontiacs so different class but same idea. Have to look at other classes to find them. That type of class where a classic engine is run in a 3rd gen Firebird for example, they could run any model year engine/cylinder head package they want but choose the 670's, which I thought was interesting.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

About forty years ago I sold a virgin pair of 670 heads to a gentleman from another State. He seemed all hot and bothered to get them. He had me send them to Ellison Race Engines, which if I remember correctly were in Cincinnati. About three weeks after sending them I get a call back from the gentleman wanting to know if I had interest in buying them back. He told me Ellison said they were nothing special.

I'm familiar with Ellison, they were a big name decades ago around the Cinci area. They mainly seemed to build Chevrolets from what I remember and some good running Chevy engines came out of there back in the day. But like any shop they dabbled in everything. Saw a lot of their stuff running at Edgewater back then.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

The couple that I talked to were running 670 head combo's in later model pontiacs so different class but same idea. Have to look at other classes to find them. That type of class where a classic engine is run in a 3rd gen Firebird for example, they could run any model year engine/cylinder head package they want but choose the 670's, which I thought was interesting.

OK, that makes all the difference. That's why I wasn't aware of their cars. Those are "GT" Super Stock class cars.

Those engines go by Super Stock rules. More head mods allowed, plus unlimited roller cams & aftermarket intakes. IIRC, a GT racer posted that the ports in SS heads can be reshaped.

So, I won't even consider SS heads in this discussion.

BUT, I'd really like to know what cars those engines are in. I try to post info about all Pontiac powered SS cars that are entered in big races. BUT, for the GT cars, most lists do not post what engine is in each car. I've discovered several Pontiac powered GT cars, which I'd missed.

[J.C.you]

Pete McCartney used to like the 670s. He had a 67 goat SSer and a green early bird. Don't know what happened to those cars.

We sent them home one year at Butlers bracket race, with our junkyard 670 400...

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

OK, that makes all the difference. That's why I wasn't aware of their cars. Those are "GT" Super Stock class cars.

Those engines go by Super Stock rules. More head mods allowed, plus unlimited roller cams & aftermarket intakes. IIRC, a GT racer posted that the ports in SS heads can be reshaped.

So, I won't even consider SS heads in this discussion.

BUT, I'd really like to know what cars those engines are in. I try to post info about all Pontiac powered SS cars that are entered in big races. BUT, for the GT cars, most lists do not post what engine is in each car. I've discovered several Pontiac powered GT cars, which I'd missed.

It still begs the question.....with the rules more laxy dazy, why are they still choosing 670 heads with all the other options that are out there available to them?

That's why I brought it into the discussion.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

Pete McCartney used to like the 670s. He had a 67 goat SSer and a green early bird. Don't know what happened to those cars.

We sent them home one year at Butlers bracket race, with our junkyard 670 400��

I only know of 1 SS '67 GTO & 1 SS '67 Bird that have been active in the last 20 years or so. The Bird is green. I suppose it's possible that one or both those cars were the Pete McCarthy cars.

Joel Larkin has been running the Bird. The driver of the GTO was Jay Cason. He's #49 on this list.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1998#indextop

I have pics of '67 SS Birds from the early years, sponsored by Stan Long Pontiac, Gay Pontiac, & Myrtle Motors. They're what I call "small tire Super Stockers". The Stan Long Bird was a nat record holder.

I figure that one reason why the '68 Birds have been so much more popular for class racing is because of the larger head choice. NHRA allows the much more common #16 & #62 D-ports, as well as the RA2's.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

It still begs the question.....with the rules more laxy dazy, why are they still choosing 670 heads with all the other options that are out there available to them?

That's a good question. Why don't you try to contact them, ask that question, & post their answer on this thread.

High compression 400 engines are not popular for SS racing. Mike McKinney did OK with one. But that's been a few years now. It seems that the lower compression engines have been much more competitive, in recent years. And that includes 350's, 400's & 455's. I suppose that's because the lower CR engines have softer NHRA hp factors. Seems that the 428 has become the most competitive Pontiac SS engine. 2 428 powered Cobalts have run in the 8's, & both are Indy class winners. But, I think they both have Eddy alum heads. So, I'm WAY off the subject of this thread.

[Stan Weiss]

While the stock head rules do not allow you to do very much. They do allow any valve job. Exactly what that means and how far that can be pushed I don't know. The question is which casting after a "creative valve job" flows the best?

GT / SS is a totally different animal. You can do all of the porting and filling on the ports you want. They only have to measure under the max port volume cc's listed.

Stan

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

While the stock head rules do not allow you to do very much. They do allow any valve job. Exactly what that means and how far that can be pushed I don't know. The question is which casting after a "creative valve job" flows the best?


Stan

That's exactly what I was talking about earlier, and gave an example of how Paul used different valves and valve angles to pick up 30 cfm on the 7F6 heads he did for an engine I built without touching the ports or bowls at all.

I did something similar with the 12 heads on my 400 for PS racing. No porting allowed, but that doesn't mean you can't change the valves and play with valve job angles.

[ponyakr]

Yeah guys, Stock racers have all that done PLUS.

LOTS of guys, both past & present, have/do enlarge the ports, in various ways, to increase power. They/somebody then covers that work up, so that it will be difficult to detect.

No, NOT everybody did/does it. BUT, LOTS have/do.

Anybody who says guys haven't/don't has just not read much about the history of Stock racing.

It HAS happened & it DOES happen. There are LOTS of Stockers running today, & passing tech at big races who are running heads that have had illegal work done to 'em.

It's just a fact of life. And life goes on.

[Formulajones]

I don't think anyone is disputing what you're saying, we are just commenting on what can be done legally, and that yes, the general consensus seems to be that there is a pretty good chance you can make enough power with that setup to push a 3200 lbs car to run that MPH, possibly without the need to port on anything.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That' sounds cool. I'd love to hear more about it.

The heads are still on my old 455. They will end up on a 461 I am just getting back to finishing. Went from graveyard shift back to swing but with 60 hour work weeks. Have to force myself to find the time.
Block is a 73 400, filled to pump holes, full lifter brace, splayed caps, 4340 crank, Molnar rods, Ross pistons, BHJ balancer, 4500 Victor with work done, custom 1050, crank trigger, Steffs pan with big kickout and trap doors.
Pretty much all I can do to a stock block. Short block is done but pan is not on it.
The pistons are 1/16" ring but I went though the effort to buy top ported rings, have them back cut and hand fit the ring spacers(giant PIA) Running a Moroso 3 vane.
Cam is a custom pump gas Comp, .750, mid .260s-.270s @ .050. Heads will be High Ports to start. I want to see how much power I can make on pump gas with stock block. They flow 359 @ .800 but still flow about 345-350 where the valve will be lifted. 11.5 CR so I am pushing it.
The engine is a little larger then Jakes engine that made over 700 HP so I expect to make a little more than he did, I hope.
But when I race I race a lot and a stock block might not live that long at that power. The HOs will get re done and have been looking for a old school iron head guy to do the work. My guy passed and I have always been impressed by Paul C. so he will get them and do what he does. If he can get 300cfm out of them with my short block I believe I can make some very good power out of a 9-1 Pontiac. Might turn some heads. Thinking smaller stem dia valves like the 5.7 Mopar hemi valves he used on his 280cfm 670s. But a custom valve as I do not want to run the short Mopar valve.
The Warrior might not cut it so it could be another Victor. Making a Warrior keep up is costly but cool.
The engine will have a longer life with the iron heads I believe. Trying to set myself up for when I retire so I can keep racing. Will have this engine and the 540 IA2 and the old 455 and some others.
We all know this is not a cheap hobby so I am doing it now. Have taken almost 2 years off so I am chomping at the bit to get back to the track.