[Stan Weiss]

When talking about HP factor are you talking about back in the day or today?

Engine Blueprint Specifications: 1966 Pontiac 360 HP 389 V8
http://classracerinfo.com/EngineSpec...3&MAKE=Pontiac

Engine Blueprint Specifications: 1967 Pontiac 360 HP 400 V8
http://classracerinfo.com/EngineSpec...9&MAKE=Pontiac

Stan

[ponyakr]

There are a couple of guys who post on the Class Racer forum who have done a lot of research on NHRA tech info from the '60's & '70's.

Have not seen where they posted any links to one major source for this info. Seems they have searched many sources, including contact with the racers who actually raced certain cars, back then, or at least guys who knew details of those cars.

Have learned some very interesting stuff, from their research, & have got some good pics from them, which I didn't have.

It has been sorta confusing to me, how NHRA changed the rules & class requirements, thru the years. Several times, many cars were put into different classes, from one year to the next, without any changes being made to the cars. NHRA would just change the weight breaks for some classes, or change the class requirements, completely, or completely do away with a class.

Then, of course, sometimes NHRA would change the hp factor enuff to move a car to a different class.

Lots of cars have been factored completely out of being competitive, forcing owners to switch to a different combo, if they wanted to continue being competitive.

Back when Stock ran off nat records, rather than the index system, lots of cars could become completely non-competitive, just because some quick car set a new nat record at a track where the conditions were ideal. At big races, a car had to be able to run a little quicker than the nat record, in order to be competitive. One guy bombing the nat record, could & did render lots of cars, non-competitive.

The index system is not perfect. But it gives lots more cars a fair chance to win a race. As long as your car can run it's index, or quicker, you have a chance to win. But, if your car just barely will run it's index, you must hope to avoid same-class heads-up runs.

[johnta1]

Wouldn't the NHRA Rulebook for 1966 have the class breaks?

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Wouldn't the NHRA Rulebook for 1966 have the class breaks?

Yeah, but it wouldn't have the NHRA hp factor of a '66 Tri-Power GTO Stocker engine. At least I don't think it would. Without knowing the factored hp & min weight, there's obviously no way to tell what class a car would have run, in '66. At least, that's how I see it.

Also, I don't happen to have a '66 rule book. Are all the old ones available online ? Haven't looked.

What would be really great is to have access to all the old National Dragster papers. IIRC, all current nat records were listed in those, on a regular basis.

I only got those for a few years & threw most of 'em away. There are a few old guys around who have lots, if not most of 'em, from back in the '60's & '70's.

But, in order to get the info I'd want, I'd either need complete access to a collection, or find some old guy with absolutely nothing else in life to do, who would really enjoy helping me find something, every time & needed it. Both situations are highly unlikely.

Googled old rulebooks & came up with this. Looks to be pdf versions of '58 thru '69 rulebooks !

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2006u57wp...myEgvaR8KYSowa

[johnta1]

Very cool link!
Thanks!


In the 69 Rulebook:

[johnta1]

Royal Pontiac 1966 GTO article

Royal customers who desired a true strip-ready car could have the Royal mechanics prep their car to a full legal NHRA C/Stocker for an additional $1150 (more than $9000 in the mid-1960s). This package included completely disassembling the engine, then balancing and blueprinting the rotating assembly and assembling it with racing clearances. The heads were then blueprinted to maximum legal specifications, and a set of Doug’s four-tube, equal-length headers were installed, along with an electric fuel pump, weight transfer suspension upgrades, Hurst competition shifter, and M & H Slicks. Prior to delivery, the customer was given detailed break-in, service, and tune-up instructions to keep the car in top performance condition.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Royal Pontiac 1966 GTO article

"...full legal NHRA C/Stocker..."

Wonder how many of those they sold & how many of those cars did real good in major drag racing events ?

[Gary H]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

When talking about HP factor are you talking about back in the day or today?

Engine Blueprint Specifications: 1966 Pontiac 360 HP 389 V8
http://classracerinfo.com/EngineSpec...3&MAKE=Pontiac

Engine Blueprint Specifications: 1967 Pontiac 360 HP 400 V8
http://classracerinfo.com/EngineSpec...9&MAKE=Pontiac

Stan

So, it appears that the 389 360 HP is actually factored at 360 HP, and the 400 360 HP engine is factored at 355 HP. I would have thought just the opposite. The 400 having quite a few more CI, and also better flowing heads. Interesting

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Gary H

So, it appears that the 389 360 HP is actually factored at 360 HP, and the 400 360 HP engine is factored at 355 HP. I would have thought just the opposite. The 400 having quite a few more CI, and also better flowing heads. Interesting

I may be able to make a little more sense of this.

Note: This is strictly my own opinion, based on some of what I've learned from research over the past few years.

As far as I can tell, there has not been an active '66 Tri-Power Stocker, on the national stage, for a LONG time. I actually can't site a single instance of one, after the '60's. (If any of you guys know of one, or more, by all means, PLEASE post all the info you have about it.)

Same goes for the '67 GTO. I am aware of only one, and it ran Super Stock. I would GUESS that there have been lots more '67 GTO Stockers, since 1970, than there have been '66 Stockers.

Since the '68 Birds came out, along with their 330hp 400's & RA2 400's, AND the '69 RA4 engines, I'd say since then VERY few '66-'67 GTO's were built to run NHRA Stock Elim.

THEREFORE(because of this), the NHRA officials who are in charge of deciding the hp factor of cars, have had almost NO race performance results for '66-'67 GTO's.

**SO, there has been no reason to adjust their hp factor, one way or the other.**

I've discovered that the NHRA hp factor has been lowered, on some Pontiac combos, in recent years. One was the 1973 D-port 455 engine, ONLY if in a BIRD.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

That brought to me the question: Why ONLY if in a BIRD ?

Over the course of the past few years, I've read where experienced racers said that after you race a fairly rare combo for a while, then you can petition NHRA to lower the combo's hp factor.

IIRC, back when the '73 455 D-port engine hp factor was lowered, only for Birds, the 2 quickest Birds running that combo belonged to Michael Brand & Adam Davis. I've read that Michael is the guy who talked Adam into building his Bird. Can't confirm.

I assume that after Adam ran his for a while, either he or Michael, or both, petitioned NHRA to lower the hp factor, which obviously they did. IIRC, Adam ran more than a sec under the index with his Bird, @ Indy.

As many here probably know, C.W, Hoefer now races that Bird, & it still runs quite well.

But, just as a combo's hp factor can be lowered, it can also be raised. The '77 base 400, if in a Bird, is a very good example. There WERE lots of these cars running quick. But, because of the hp factor increase, a former '77 Bird racer says that now, a 350 powered '77 is probably more competitive than a 400 powered Bird. He now has a '77 400 powered Lemans. Same engine he ran before, but with the lower hp factor than for Birds, currently.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

An example of fluctuating hp factors is the '68 330hp Bird combo. It remained @ 330hp for a LONG time. Then a few years back, several cars began running pretty quick. NHRA raised the hp to 338. But, I've noticed that last year it was lowered to 333. WHY ? I don't have a clue. Maybe somebody asked to have it lowered ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

I've noticed that some factors seemed to have been lowered, for combos I haven't seen running anywhere, in recent years. The '69 GTO hp factor for the 350hp engine is now only 325. For all practical purposes, it's basically the same engine as the '68 & '69 330hp Bird engine. Art Peterson has been running a '69 SS GTO for a long time. His hp factor is only 306. It's the only '69 GTO, that I know of, currently in Stock or SS competition. If ya'll know of others, please post that info.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

The '69 330hp Bird engine has a 345hp factor. Why ? Because John Schloe's '69 Bird runs mid 10's with it. That has to be, because he has the only quick '69 Bird Stocker I know of. So, you could run the same engine in a Goat & have a 20hp lower hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

It's interesting to me that the hp factor for the '67 360hp 400 was lowered by 5hp, back in 2011. WHY ? Don't know. I doubt that anybody built a '67 GTO Stocker, ran it, then asked NHRA to lower the hp factor. But again, if anybody knows of one, please post the info about it !

[ponyakr]

Just got another pic of the Warren Bros "Catnip" C/S '66 GTO. The caption said it was @ the '66 Super Stock Nats race, during the C/S class run-offs.

Milt Schornack won the class, in his Royal Pontiac '66 GTO. Wonder what times the 2 cars turned that day ? Assume they were in the high 12's.

[Dick Boneske]

This ‘67 owner showed up at our local car show in September. Note it ran 12.31 in 1968 and held the NHRA record for its class.

It is a beautiful car with very low miles.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Dick Boneske

This ‘67 owner showed up at our local car show in September. Note it ran 12.31 in 1968 and held the NHRA record for its class.

It is a beautiful car with very low miles.

Hey, THANKS for posting this !

[ponyakr]

Recently found this pic of a '64 GTO Stocker.

It appears to have been a dealer sponsored car, that ran AHRA, in the F2 B/S class. Don't have any performance numbers.

Anybody know the car ?

[ponyakr]

Just realized that I ID'd a pic wrong. When I saw a pic(pic #4 below) of a white '66 Knafel Pontiac, I thought it was one of the OHC cars that Knafel ran.

BUT, on closer examination of the pic, as well as noticing the same car in another pic(pic #5 below), I realized that the car is actually the original Tin Indian V '66 GTO.

I'd been thinking & posting that the GTO pictured with all the trophies was actually the car that won all the races.

I've also posted pics of the Knafel 2-car rig, with 2 '66 GTO's on it, with different paint schemes. Now I'm really confused.

So, were there actually 3 of these cars, all of which were raced in '66 ?

Was the trophy car actually the same car as in pic #4, just made later, when it had a different paint job ?

How many different GTO's are pictured below ?

Note: Don't count the OHC six ragtop.

[johnta1]

It appears to have been a dealer sponsored car, that ran AHRA, in the F2 B/S class. Don't have any performance numbers.

The name above the dealer name looks like Dan Puzewski?
Might be able to search that driver?

[Mike Davis]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Just got another pic of the Warren Bros "Catnip" C/S '66 GTO. The caption said it was @ the '66 Super Stock Nats race, during the C/S class run-offs.

Milt Schornack won the class, in his Royal Pontiac '66 GTO. Wonder what times the 2 cars turned that day ? Assume they were in the high 12's.

Not sure what they were turning. My car was bought new in late June of 66 to be raced as a C/SA car. The car got parked in 1970 with less than 3K on the odometer. Owner thought the engine was bad. Turns out the starter was loose and broke the flex plate causing a knock. I got the car in 1980. Had the original 389 with a tri power (was a factory 4bbl car but was swapped after delivery), 2 speed auto, rear gears were changed from 3.23 to 3.90 The car had the Royal Bobcat kit installed by Boomershine Pontiac in Atlanta in August of 1966.

Hand Written Time Slips in the glove box from Atlanta Speed Shop Dragway
14.20's with the 4BBL
13.85 with the Tri Power.

[ponyakr]

A guy on another site is asking for info on the Ray Hunt Pontiacs. This pic of a '72 A-body is all I can find. It may have been a Super Stocker, at the time. Can't tell, for sure. I think Ray was connected to Mid-America Speed Centers. May have owned it. Don't know.

Anybody have more info on Ray Hunt Pontiacs ?

NOTE: Not interested in Ray Hunt, just the Pontiac cars themselves, that were raced with the Hunt and/or Mid America names on 'em.

[Stan Weiss]

Looks like going back some time ago Ray was not liked here.

Stan

[ponyakr]

If you run a '68 Bird, you have lots of options..

I discovered last night that if you run a '68 Bird, you can claim at least 6 different Pontiac V8 engines.

But, what I didn't know is that with exactly the same engine, you can claim 3 different hp ratings.

According to the NHRA rules, with a 400 engine, you can claim 330hp, 335hp, or the 335hp RA1 engine, & run either number 16 or 62 D-port heads.

NHRA hp factor for the 330hp engine is 333hp. For the 335hp engine it's 327hp. And for the 335hp RA1 engine it's 332hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...1&MAKE=Pontiac

And you can run the same .421 lift cam in all 3 engines. If I understand this correctly, all you'd have to do is just tell the tech guy which of the 3 engines you wanted to claim. You could run any one of the 3, as long as your cam did not have more than .421 lift.

If I'm wrong about this, somebody please explain it to me.

Also, you could run a RA2 engine if you didn't mind running the high dollar round port heads.

Then there is the 350HO & the 350 2-barrel. Adam Strang proved that the 350HO will run in the 10's. But, I'm assuming the 350 2-barrel would not be competitive @ the current NHRA 265hp.

[ponyakr]

Recently learned that there are at least 2 quick Pontiac powered Stockers for sale. I've posted lots of race results for both cars.

One is the Chris Stephenson '68 Bird. His ad has an asking price of $45,000 on it.

https://www.facebook.com/chris.stephenson.338

The other car is the Leo Glasbrenner RA2 powered '68 Bird. He said he had it on racingjunk.com for a while, for $60,000, IIRC, with no hits.

So, he has it apart now, doing upgrades. Says he's gonna take it back to the track sometime next year, then try again to sell, probably at a higher price.

I understood him to say the deal includes two RA2 engines.

https://www.remactransmissions.com/contact/

I think both cars have run mid-10's, in C/SA.

So, if there is anybody here with plenty of money, who wants to go Stock Elim racing, here are a couple of proven Stockers, that should work for you.