#41  
Old 01-30-2020, 05:16 AM
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OK, I have a lot more Stocker info now. So, I'll start posting it as I have time.

I learned that back in the early '60's they separated Stock into 2 separate classes. The A/S & A/SA were the lowest class cars in what they called "Top Stock". Some of those higher classes were S/S, S/SA, OS/S, & even the FX classes. NHRA did not call the class Super Stock.

B/S and below was called "Junior Stock". I'd seen Junior Stock mentioned, thru the years. But, I just assumed it was some sort of "Pure Stock" type class.

Anyhow, by around 1966 or '67, NHRA combined the 2 stock classes & called it Stock Eliminator. They came up with new rules for a Super Stock class. These rules allowed for a bigger cam, an aftermarket intake, and any tire that would fit in the stock fenderwell. I refer to these early SS cars as the small tire Super Stockers. The FX cars got so wild, they ended up becoming the Funny Car class.

By '67, guys began running the new '67 Firebirds. Found a couple of pics of some early ones. I even found a pic of an OHC powered '67 Bird. Don't know what kind of times they turned. In recent years Randi Lyn Shipp & Bryan Phillips have been running '67's which have run mid 10's & often more than a sec under their index.
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  #42  
Old 01-30-2020, 05:49 AM
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Of course, there were lots of Stock class winners, years before the Firebirds came along.

Carol Cox won her S/SA class at both the Winter Nats & the US Nats, in '62. I think they just called it the Nationals, back then. She was said to be the first female to get a class win at a nat event.

https://www.nhra.com/news/2018/carol...t-class-winner

2 years earlier, at the Nationals, before they were moved to Indy, Jim Wangers won the Mr. Stock Eliminator title, when he won an All-Pontiac final.

https://www.sema.org/sema-news/2010/...liminator-1960
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  #43  
Old 01-30-2020, 06:56 AM
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I'm sure there were some other class & race winners in the early '60's that I don't know about. I can post pics of lots of the early '60's cars, and will probably do so, later in the thread. But, I wanna try to mention some that I know were winners.

Can't talk about the early Pontiacs without talkin about Arnie Beswick. He is sometimes remembered for his wild match race Pontiacs. But, he started off with Stockers. The story is told of the '61 season, when he won the race in Florida, which was put on jointly by NHRA & NASCAR. Yes, NASCAR was involved with drag racing, for a few years.

He actually drove the car to & from that race. That was the 1st year Pontiac put a 4-speed in a car. Before that, he was racing with 3-on-the-tree. Other racers though the car was not legal, because of the 4-speed. He had to get official word from Pontiac, in order to race the car.

Anyhow, Arnie won lots of races, in lots of different classes, before doing the wild match race thing.

https://www.arniebeswick.com/bio.htm

Lots of Pontiac dealers had race teams back in those early days. Royal Pontiac was one of the biggest. Gay Pontiac, in Houston, raced several Pontiacs. Don Gay won quite a bit in a 421 powered A/S Catalina. His most famous pic, I suppose, is with his class winners trophy, he won at the '64 Indy Nats.

Then he, like Arnie, switched to the wild match race cars.

https://www.nhra.com/news/2015/drag-...s-teen-terrors
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  #44  
Old 01-30-2020, 07:33 AM
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There was also at least one Pontiac wagon that was a Stock nat record holder, back in the '60's.

And, of course, when the GTO came out, there lots of dealers & individuals that raced 'em. The 1st real quick one that I ran across was a '65, raced by Knafel Pontiac. It was an NHRA record holder, national Stock champ.

I suppose the winningest GTO, at least for a single season, was the Knafel '66 model "Tin Indian". It won 2 nat events & numerous other races. Bill Knafel sponsored lots of quick Pontiacs, during the '60's & very early '70's.

http://www.pontiacpreservationassoci...ll-knafel.html

Royal Pontiac also had some quick Pontiacs during those years.

https://www.google.com/search?q=roya...hrome&ie=UTF-8
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  #45  
Old 01-30-2020, 08:12 AM
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In the late '60's & very early '70's, I suppose there were more '68 Birds, & '69 Goats raced than any other Pontiacs. Seems like all the dealers, and LOTS of others, wanted to race a Judge.

For many years, the '68 330hp Bird was a perfect fit for the 10 lbs/hp E/SA class, with it's NHRA weight of 3300 lbs. Stayed that way til just a few years back, when NHRA added 8hp to the hp factor. For this season, they took 5hp back off.

Don't know which '68 330hp Bird or which Judge was the quickest, during the '69 season. But, the '68 Bird & Goat could run the RAII engine. So, I suspect lots of guys did just that.
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  #46  
Old 01-30-2020, 08:52 AM
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Before I move on to 1970, there's another '69 I wanna mention. Dave Pruden won his E/S class at the '73 US Nats. By Email, he sent me a real cool story about that car. I've ask him for permission to pass it on, but haven't heard back yet. So, maybe I'll get to tell it soon.

For 1970, there were not many engine changes, that would affect Stock racing, except for the high compression 455, in the GTO.

In recent years, Todd Kuhn has raced a '70 455 GTO. And, most all Pontiac guys know about Scott Burton's B/SA '70 RAIV Formy. It was the quickest Pontiac Stocker, ever. Many of you guys know that my 1st 455 came out of a '70 GTO. I raced it in '77, '78, & '79, with only a cam change, to an 041/Rhoads. Ran 12.40's in TJ's '68 Bird.

Anyhow, 2 '70 GTO's come to mind, from back in the old days. One was a Knafel Pontiac record holder. The other was called Kathy's Clown.
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  #47  
Old 01-30-2020, 10:18 AM
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1971 did bring about some changes. The 400's had less CR, and the 455HO came on the scene. And, since the 455HO was available in several different body styles, it was raced in all those body styles. Thru the years, there have been LOTS of 455HO powered Stockers. There are still several today.

Don't know which 455HO car won the 1st big race. But there are some that come to mind. Rock Running had a T-37, named "Super Sleeper".

Mick Leiferman had a '71 GTO. Don't know what all he won. But he is sorta famous for being RU at the US Nats for 3 years in a row. The pic I have shows the car in H/SA. I assume that is with a 400 engine.

But, a guy on the Class Racer forum said he thought it might be a D-port 455. Anyhow, on the front fender it says he was a nat record holder for 5 years in a row. Hey, 3 US Nats RU's in a row, along with 5 nat records in a row ain't too shabby.

The White bros had some good running Pontiacs. One was an E/SA 455HO T-37.
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  #48  
Old 01-30-2020, 11:05 AM
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In '71 & '72 there were not many differences in the Birds. Lots of guys have made small changes & run the same car as a '70-'73. The '71, non T/A cars had a small rectangular air extractor, on the front fenders. But, I've seen those fenders on cars that were claimed to be some other year.

Gary Moore ran a '71 in H/S, which I assume was 400 powered. He got a class win at the Spring Nats. You can see the '71 fenders.

Sam Reuland also ran a '71, owned by some brothers named Axemaker. It ran E/SA, which I assume was a 455HO.
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  #49  
Old 01-30-2020, 11:18 AM
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Lee Bannister ran a '72, which had a 455HO. It had a Formy hood, but T/A fenders. He won lots of races, including nat events at the Gators, & the Fall Nats, in Texas.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r1999#indextop
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Last edited by ponyakr; 01-30-2020 at 11:27 AM.
  #50  
Old 01-30-2020, 11:58 AM
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While on '72 models, I'll mention one of the most popular '72 Pontiacs, ever. It's the Tons-a-Fun wagon. Actually there were 2 of 'em. One had a Lemans front on it. The other had a T-41 front on it.

They ran both a 455HO, & a 455 D-port. Gary Wood built the cars. He & wife Charlene both drove. They got lots of class wins. Charlene won a nat event in Canada.

Gary also raced a '72 Formy, & a '72 GTO. He won the Spring Nats with the Formy. .
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  #51  
Old 01-30-2020, 12:06 PM
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Lee was from down here,Crosby I think. Saw him testing at Baytown alot, really nice guy. I even made a run against him at the Pontiac Southern Nats in Dallas one year in the 78 TA, in fact those HPP pictures might be from that event.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #52  
Old 01-30-2020, 12:31 PM
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Lee Bannister

Pavement Pounders Shootout!

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-...-2001-formula/


.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #53  
Old 01-30-2020, 12:59 PM
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Yep same event I remember that late model car also.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #54  
Old 01-30-2020, 01:07 PM
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thanks for all the cool old racer car info. those are always my favorite cars. they just look awesome

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1969 carousel red firebird 455, richmond 5 speed
1964 540 gto
1971 lemans sport convertible
1972 Maverick under slow construction
  #55  
Old 01-30-2020, 06:19 PM
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'71 & '72 model F & A-bodies have always been very popular for Stocker racing.

Here's a few more '71 A-body pics.
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  #56  
Old 01-30-2020, 06:22 PM
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There is the other Black Gold Monk King car!

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #57  
Old 01-30-2020, 06:30 PM
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Here's some '72 GTO's.(Or, the way some of these cars were passed around, these pics may be of exactly the same car).

I'm not up on all the exact differences between the '71 & '72. The only way I can tell the difference is the air extractors on the '72 fenders.
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  #58  
Old 01-30-2020, 07:03 PM
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Re: 71-72 G T O differences.

In addition to the aforementioned air extractors, a very visible outward difference are the front grilles. In 71, they looked like chrome chain link fence, in 72, they were square opening black plastic.

The reverse grille change compared to a 66/67 G T O comparison.

Stuart

  #59  
Old 01-30-2020, 07:21 PM
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Here are 3 1971 Birds. The 1st one was owned by Lyndel Warren. He worked for the Coke company. So, he named the car "Coke Machine". He was #1 qualifier at the Winter Nats, with this car.

The 2nd pic was taken at the LaPlace LA track. That is the track where TJ & I were made aware of the fact that, at that time, every minute detail of the car must be EXACTLY like it was supposed to be, according to NHRA rules, or you couldn't run. Period !

The tech pointed out that we had pieces of chrome trim missing, the radio hole was not covered, and the '68 Bird had the wrong fan on it. So, we watched that race, finished out the year at local tracks, then switched to bracket racing.

The last car here was raced by the White bros, who, as mentioned, raced several Pontiacs.
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  #60  
Old 01-30-2020, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick View Post
Re: 71-72 G T O differences.

In addition to the aforementioned air extractors, a very visible outward difference are the front grilles. In 71, they looked like chrome chain link fence, in 72, they were square opening black plastic.

The reverse grille change compared to a 66/67 G T O comparison.

Stuart
Just looked at the pics. Can't tell what grills those cars had. That's why, when looking at online pics, I always look for the air extractors.

But, I understand the grill change deal. Same between '77 & '78 Bird grills. And, there were at least 3 difference grills among the '70-'73 Birds. The '72 grills were sorta honeycomb. The '73 grills had larger rectangles, rather than the small squares of the '70-'71 grills.

Never had a '71 or '72 GTO, nor ever had one at my shop. But, I just looked up some grill pics. The 1st thing I noticed is that the '72 grills are recessed several inches into the bumper, whereas the '71 grills are almost even with front of the bumper. Also, the holes in the grills are obviously different shapes.
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Last edited by ponyakr; 01-30-2020 at 08:24 PM.
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