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ponyakr · 02:25 AM

ponyakr · 02-02-2020, 03:37 AM

Here's pics of 4 different '68 Birds.

ponyakr · 02-02-2020, 04:00 AM

Here's 4 2nd gens & a '67 Goat.

If I post some pics that have already been posted, ya'll forgive me, OK ?

ponyakr · 02-02-2020, 04:55 AM

Here's 5 '69 Birds. The last one was a 350HO.

Skip Fix · 02-02-2020, 11:55 AM

Thanks for all the research to find photos and videos of all these cars!

ponyakr · 12:37 AM

Got a question for you guys. A guy on the Class Racer forum said that very few big name class racer engine builders will touch a Pontiac.

SO, I'd like to know all the Pontiac engine builders still in business, who have, can & will build a Pontiac Stock Eliminator engine that will run good & pass tech.

A couple of Pontiac racers say that Parsons & Meyers builds the best.

But, do shops like DCI & Butler build Stocker engines ? Anybody else ?

I've read that Cliff has built Q-jets for some Stockers. But who all can build the engine ?

Some guys used Ellison Engine service, in the past. They closed back around 2012.

Help with this would be appreciated.

455firebird1969 · 02-03-2020, 02:02 PM

Midway engine rebuilders in Salinas CA, used to do stock eliminator engines in the early 2000’s, it’s been a while and I left CA in 2005, so I don’t know if they still do them.

Keith Seymore · 02-03-2020, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponyakr

But I can't verify that, one way or the other. In the only pic I have of the car, I can't make out the class designation, on the side. I can make out an SA. So, that means it was an auto trans Stocker. Can anybody tell the exact class, from the pic below ?

H/SA.

It's pretty clear on my monitor at work.

K

ponyakr · 09:30 AM

Thanks for that info Keith !

Now I'd like to see if I can get a little input here.

There are some Stockers, of other brands, which are very competitive, running a 2-barrel carb. So, I got to thinking about it, & I can't remember ever seeing or even hearing of a Pontiac Stocker running a 2-barrel.

So, I looked up the NHRA hp factors on all the 2-barrel carb Pontiac engines, from '67 thru '76. It's very easy to see why most Pontiac guys have chosen not to choose a 2-barrel combo. For most of the early years, NHRA just uses the factory hp rating.

For example: The 265hp 350 engines have a 265hp factor. Well, the '77 400 4-barrel engine only has a 260hp factor. And the 290hp 400 engines have a 290hp factor. At those advertised hp numbers, those 2-barrel engines could not hope to be competitive.

But, when I came to the 1973-'74 2-barrel 350's, I discovered that NHRA had made a reduction in the hp factor, for the 350 2-barrel engines. It is down to 210hp. I asked a guy who was racing back in the day, and he told me about one guy who had run a Pontiac Lemans wagon, with a 2-barrel carb. Said it wasn't real quick, but quick enuff to compete. So, I'm guessing that wagon was probably responsible for getting the hp factor reduced. I've read that's the way it works. You build the car & race it. Then, if it runs slow & is not competitive, AND nobody else with that same combo is running quicker, you can petition NHRA for a reduction & many times get it.

Another reason why many didn't run a 400 or 455 2-barrel combo is probably because most of 'em came only in big cars. The one exception I found was for the '67 GTO. A 2-barrel 400 was available that year. But it's factor is 255hp, and the NHRA min chamber volume is 90cc. So, it would have fairly low CR. But, since it does have 400+ cubes, if someone were to build one of these & could get NHRA to lower the factor some, the combo MIGHT be competitive. But, who would wanna build a '67 GTO Stocker, especially one with a 2-barrel carb ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

I'm sure some of you guys are totally turned off by the thought of running a 2-barrel carb. But, think about it this way. We're talkin about Stock Eliminator class racing. Except for same-class heads-up runs, it's just a bracket race. You run off whatever time you dial in. The catch is, you have to be able to run your NHRA index, or quicker. If you can, you can win the race, even if you have to run some of the 8 sec Factory Stock cars. How cool would that be, to beat a $100,000 FS car, with a slow 2-barrel car.

So, if someone wanted to build a 2-barrel Pontiac Stocker, they'd have to figure out what year/engine/car combo would run it's index or better, even in hot weather. Well, after lookin at all the 2-barrel Pontiac combos, I've concluded that with the current NHRA hp factors, the 1973 2-barrel 350 has the best possible chance. It has a 210hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

It can be used in lots of '73 model Pontiacs. I like the idea of using a Ventura. But some might prefer a Bird, or even a heavy wagon.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2073

One drawback is that it uses the smaller 2-barrel carb, which has a venturi size of 1.186. The '73 Chevy 350 2-barrel engines use the larger carbs, with the 1.250 venturi. They're also allowed more compression than the Pontiac 350.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...MAKE=Chevrolet

The NHRA hp factor for the Camaro & Nova, with factory heads is 224hp. So, with less compression & smaller carb, the hp factor for the Pontiac is only 14hp lower. So, here's my whole point with this post. Considering all these factors, do ya'll think this '73 2-barrel 350 Pontiac engine could be built to make enuff power to run it's index, and still be legal ?

I know several of you guys have all sorts of computer programs & stuff that can estimate the power different combinations will produce. So, I'd like to tap into some of the smart tech, & see what ya'll can come up with.

Would also like to know if anybody here has done any dyno and/or drag strip testing with a 2-barrel Roch carb. I'd love to know how much they slow down a decent 350 or 400 engine vs a good Q-jet. Would also like to know how much slower the smaller Roch would be than the bigger Roch.

Guessing that some of the Chevy 2-barrel racers have done extensive dyno & strip testing. Haven't heard of any Pontiac guys doing any.

Sure will be glad when I win the big one & get my dyno. I'vs got LOTS of Pontiac engine testings I'd like to do.

So, any good info on Roch 2-barrel performance here ?

Just happened to think. I ran a big Roch on my 455 dirt track engine. That was the rule. Hey, I won a heat race, a trophy dash, a feature, and finished in the top 5 several times. So, the 2-barrel Roch did provide some performance.

What is the quickest ET you guys have run, with a 2-barrel Roch ?

ponyakr · 02-04-2020, 09:54 AM

The 350 2-barrel Ventura would run P/SA. It's index would be 13.45.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/NHRA_Classes.aspx

So, do you guys think that '73 2-barrel engine could push a Ventura that quick ?

Keep in mind that it could run any rear gear ratio, any stall converter, & any 3-speed GM trans, with all the latest lightweight go-fast guts in it, including a lower 1st gear ratio. The top racers nowadays are running the tricked out TH200 trans. The car would also have the latest lightweight wheels, and the smallest tires that would provide the necessary hook. I think 9x30's are legal. But on a low power 2-barrel 350 car, I'm thinkin maybe you could get by with smaller lighter tires.

Hey, all this might sound like nit-pikin to many here. But, I can assure you, this is the way most class racers think. They are always trying to come up with something that will make their combo quicker, if only by a thousandth of a second. Why ? They wanna be able to run as quick as possible so that when they have to ran another car in their same class, they might be just quick enuff to win.

Even if they are nowhere near as quick as the quickest car in their class, at a particular race, they may draw a same class car that runs real close to their ET. It's for just such rounds that most class racers continually look for ways to go just a little bit quicker.

I've read that for many class racers, that's what they love about it. Workin on your stuff, & continually makin it quicker, within a set of rules. That's one of the things that makes it different from bracket racing.

ponyakr · 02:25 PM

"...Hey, all this might sound like nit-pikin to many here. But, I can assure you, this is the way most class racers think. They are always trying to come up with something that will make their combo quicker, if only by a thousandth of a second. Why ? They wanna be able to run as quick as possible so that when they have to ran another car in their same class, they might be just quick enuff to win.

Even if they are nowhere near as quick as the quickest car in their class, at a particular race, they may draw a same class car that runs real close to their ET. It's for just such rounds that most class racers continually look for ways to go just a little bit quicker.

I've read that for many class racers, that's what they love about it. Workin on your stuff, & continually makin it quicker, within a set of rules. That's one of the things that makes it different from bracket racing..."

After suggesting that doing away with heads-up racing, at some of the smaller races, might help attract new guys to Stock Eliminator, I was hit with F-bombs, backed up by many. Several of the guys say that heads-up runs is the ONLY reason they race Stock, & say that if heads-up racing is eliminated, they will quit racing Stock.

So, there you have it. Some of those guys have spent lots of money and/or time having a quick Stocker, they don't won't any low budget bracket racers in Stock, having a chance to win a round against a same class car, & they are very vocal about it.

That's not a put down of any Stock class racer. It's just a simple fact, which I have recently read about, first hand.

So, if by chance, anybody here has any thoughts of possibly building a Stocker, keep all this in mind. If you can just barely run under your index, you won't have a chance to win a round against a same class car.

But, the good news for low budget slow cars is, every car does not have a heads-up run, every race.

The dial-your-own breakout rounds, is what separates Stock from the Pro classes.
If your gonna win in heads-up racing classes, you gotta be the quickest, or very near the quickest car in your class, at a particular race.

For example: It's not very often that the #16 qualifier, in a Pro Stock field, will win the race. I haven't done any analysis. But, I'd guess that a large percentage of the Pro Stock winners are among the top 4 qualifiers.

Here's the Class Elims qualifying for last years Indy race.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

And here's the list of class winners. You can see that most of the class winners were also the quickest qualifier in their class. Some #1 qualifiers left too soon, losing the class win. And, the ET's of the #1 & #2 qualifiers, in some classes, were very close, & the #2 qualifier won.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCS...r2019#indextop

Anyhow, for these classes that had several cars in them, if the quickest car had met the slowest car, in elims, the slower car really had no chance, unless the quicker driver made a mistake, like a red light or a REAL slow light. Many times, there is enuff ET difference so that the quick car can afford a slow light & still have plenty of cushion, to beat the slow car. It's all just part of the same-class heads-up no breakout rule, in Stock eliminator.

ponyakr · 02:51 PM

Got more info about the possibility of running a 2-barrel Pontiac engine combo.

A guy who knows a lot about it says that the 2-barrel Pontiac combos have an NHRA hp rating which is much too high for a competitive build.

He said that the only way to get NHRA to lower the hp factor is to build the car & start racing it. Then, AFTER that, you can petition NHRA to lower the hp factor.

He said it could take up to 10 years to get the hp low enuff to make your combo competitive.

And I'll add, that's assuming nobody else builds your same combo & runs quicker than you. So, I'd say the bottom line is: Don't count on it ever being lowered enuff.

Considering all this, I recommend that no one build a 350 or larger Pontiac Stocker, with a 2-barrel carb. Need to stick with something that came with a Q-jet. And you need to choose a combo with a competitive NHRA hp factor rating.

Stan Weiss · 02-08-2020, 03:03 PM

JMO! If you do away with the head-up runs then it nothing but another bracket class. Why have it?

Stan

ponyakr · 04:30 PM

I may have already mentioned this. But, it's important info, for anyone planning a Stocker build.

Here is a list of some of the Pontiac combos that have been competitive in the past, & still are today. Since I've discovered that not all agree as to which combos are more competitive than others, I won't say which is most competitive. I'll just number 'em to keep 'em separated.

Since the SD455 & RAIV heads are so rare & expensive, I won't include those engines.

(1) The '68 Bird 330hp 400 has always been a competitive combo. NHRA raised the hp factor to 338hp, a few years ago, but recently reduced it to 333hp. Those heads are not dirt cheap, but still available. Still quite a few running this combo. Adam Strang runs the stick version, I think.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

(2) The '67 325hp 400 Bird. Bryan Phillips & Randi Lyn Shipp have done quite well with this combo. There are still some 670 heads around, for a fairly reasonable price. But, it's hp factor is still at 338. The same engine in a '67 GTO has only a 325hp factor. But, I don't know anybody that has run one of those as a Stocker, in a long time.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

(3) I don't know of anybody currently running one, but the '68 & '69 350hp 400 GTO engines are only NHRA rated at 325hp.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

(4) One of the most used Pontiac Stocker engines is the '77 180hp 400. It has done very well in lots of cars, especially Birds. Because of that, it's NHRA hp factor has been raised to a ridiculous level. But, as of this post time, this engine only has a 260hp factor, in any other '77 Pontiac, except for a Bird.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...4&MAKE=Pontiac

(5) The '74 400 engine has been very competitive, and at 275hp , still may be.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...1&MAKE=Pontiac

(6) If somebody wants to run a '77 Bird, the best combo is probably a 350, with it's 254 hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

(7) Then there are several 455 combos. For those who can afford 455HO heads, most all those combos have always been competitive. But, I'll just mention some D-port 455's.

The one I like is the high compression '70 model with the #64 heads.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

[8) A couple of guys have done good with the '73 250hp 455, in Birds. It only has a 306hp factor, in Birds. Same for the '74 version.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

(9) Todd Hoven ran a '72 GTO, with a D-port 455. He thinks it's a good combo, at 315hp. Can't use it in a Bird. But, it's legal in just about every other '72 Pontiac body.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

(10) I've heard many here badmouth the '72 #66 455 heads. But Ryan Schloe qualified up to around 3/4 sec under his index, with this engine, in a '71 Formy. It's got a 320hp factor, in a Bird. So, it's not the best Pontiac combo. But, it ain't the worst either.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

There have been lots of Pontiacs do good with the '68 RA2 engine. So, if you can afford a good set of those round port heads, that engine would still be competitive.

Adam Strang proved last year that a '68 350HO could run pretty good. Some have had problems finding a good set of those #18 heads.

As for the heads, the '77 180hp 400 engine should have the cheapest, most available Pontiac heads, since it uses the 6x-8 heads. Bob Michael built a '77 Lemans & a '77 Catalina with that engine. Both ran well.

Bob Michael & Norman Warling have strong running '62 389 Tri-Power cars. But, that's a combo I wouldn't recommend for new comers.

There are 301 combos that will work. But, you need the good 301T shortblock, which are getting hard to find. Need to stick with a combo that will allow you to find parts easily, at reasonable prices, unless you have an unlimited budget, in which case you should buy a race-ready car.

If others have combos they think might be good for building a competitive Pontiac Stocker, please post that info.

Stan Weiss · 02-08-2020, 04:33 PM

Remember while these cars do not go super fast (MPH), body style still does matter. Does anyone have frontal area and or CD for any of these body styles?

Stan

johnta1 · 02-08-2020, 05:38 PM

Quote:

JMO! If you do away with the head-up runs then it nothing but another bracket class. Why have it?

I don't think it's anything like a bracket race?
They don't have a breakout rule?
(they get docked on their index if they go to fast)

So, if you're faster than what you are dialed in at, you hope your opponent isn't faster than his dial in difference.

It's just more 'thinking' one has to do.

(never been class racing)

Stan Weiss · 02-08-2020, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnta1

I don't think it's anything like a bracket race?
They don't have a breakout rule?
(they get docked on their index if they go to fast)

So, if you're faster than what you are dialed in at, you hope your opponent isn't faster than his dial in difference.

It's just more 'thinking' one has to do.

(never been class racing)

John,
I am going to have to look that up. That was not my understanding of how it worked.

Stan

johnta1 · 02-08-2020, 09:13 PM

From 2020 NHRA Rule Book:

Quote:

HANDICAPPING

Comp, Super Stock, and Stock handicapping is based upon the NHRA index system. Handicap margins can be determined simply by comparing individual class index elapsed-time factors (as listed on NHRARacer.com).

DIALING UNDER THE INDEX
Contestants in Super Stock and Stock have the option of dialing under their class’ assigned index. It is the responsibility of each contestant to place the selected time on the windshield and tower-side window prior to each round of competition. Dial-unders may be changed between rounds, including a rerun situation. All contestants not choosing to dial under will automatically be handicapped on the basis of their assigned class index. In cases where two cars of the same class are paired, the race is conducted on a heads-up basis, regardless of any dialing-under considerations, and breakout rulings do not apply.

Later on it's written for breakouts:

Quote:

BREAKOUT RULES
In Super Stock, Stock, Super Comp, Super Gas, Super Street, Top Dragster, and Top Sportsman categories, the breakout rules are enforced at national, divisional, and National Open events as follows: Contestants who race below the posted index or category standard during eliminations are disqualified, with the following exceptions: 1. when an opponent foul starts or crosses a boundary line 2. on a single run 3. when both drivers run under their index, the driver who is the least under is the winner 4. when two cars of the same class race (doesn’t apply to Super categories) 5. if two contestants run under by the same margin (with elapsed times extended to a thousandth of a second), the driver crossing the finish line first is the winner

ponyakr · 02-09-2020, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

JMO! If you do away with the head-up runs then it nothing but another bracket class. Why have it?

Stan

Yeah, that's what all the quick guys on the Class Racer forum say.

But, you can't just pull your bracket car into the Stock tech line & hope to pass tech. Ain't gonna happen.

You must build your car according to Stock Elim rules. There have been some new combos come along, which required very little work to get 'em under the index. For most, NHRA eventually increases the hp factor to a point where those combos do not have a big advantage over some of the more popular combos.

The Stock class cars must run an engine that was originally available in the body used. For MOST combos(NOT ALL), you'll need careful engine prep, including the correct cam & head work. You'll need exactly the right converter & gears for the combo. And, obviously, you'll have to have the suspension set up to hook, with 9" slicks. These are usually basic requirements in order to build a car that will run under it's index.

Also, the interior of the car must be real close to how it came from the factory. Can't just have everything stripped out, like bracket cars are. I was told that we couldn't race our Stockers, as long as the holes where the radio had been were not covered. Of course there have been some changes & relaxing of some rules, since then. The cars must meet minimum weight requirements.

Lots of guys see this as a challenge, to get their car under the index, but within the rules. That's enuff reason to run Stock, for some.

This is compared to a bracket car, where there are not many rules, accept safety rules. Any brand or size engine, with any heads, cam, intake, carb, hood scoop, any size tires, with any rear suspension. Can be much lighter than the car was, from the factory. Dial your own ET, no minimum unless track has a minimum for a certain class. If your too slow for one class, you just run a lower class.

I dare say that your average bracket racer could not build a Stocker that would run under the index. And most could not afford to pay someone to build one for 'em.

MANY, if not MOST of the serious Stock racers are quick to tell you that they have spent LOTS of money on their car, so that they could race a car that would run WELL below it's index. And most are very vocal about the fact that they don't like it when some guy comes in with a "dime rocket" that has a chance to win the race, if they can avoid same-class heads-up rounds.

Yeah, MANY, not all, of the guys with high dollar cars, really look down their nose at the low budget guys & their barely-under-the-index dime rockets. And MANY really don't like bracket racers, & seem to think most just don't have enuff money & intelligence to build a Stocker. I'm absolutely sure that many of those guys would drop lots of F-bombs on me if they read this. But, whether I say it, or somebody else says it, it's absolutely the truth. "Just the facts ma'am."

AND, I have no doubt that MANY of the guys with the quick cars would quit racing instantly, if the same-class heads-up runs were eliminated. For many, their most pleasure in racing is winning an occasional heads-up round. In fact, for many, it is probably the MAIN reason they race. And that is especially true if the guy is not a very good bracket racer. Or, in other words, if he can't cut good lights & run consistent times.

ponyakr · 01:39 AM

We've all probably noticed that many of the Pontiac drag cars, from the old days, used names that have always been associated with Native Americans, in some way.

https://itstillruns.com/did-pontiac-...e-5694601.html

Here are just 5 that I have pics of. There are many others, such as the famous "Tin Indian" cars, raced by Knafel Pontiac.

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