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Old 01-06-2022, 07:05 PM
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Default Nicopp vs SS brake lines

Finally starting to juice up the brake system on my GTO and so checking for leaks. I had replaced everything with SS lines from either Inline, or Right Stuff .. checked at the time of installation and all was good. Pulled a vacuum on them and they held firm.

Fast forward to now ... a year or two later ... won't hold a vacuum and I found several fittings that were no longer tight. Most sealed up with a bit more tightening, but the main line to rear, where it joins the hose just would not seal. Seal got worse as I tightened it more, which leaves me to believe I over tightened it and it split the flare ... or something. Pulled the line and the hose and under the shop microscope could find no obvious problem.

I also noticed on the hose the 3/16 lines to the wheel cylinders tore up the brass junction pretty good. Have a new hose in hand now, although it came in with a steel junction .. not sure if that's better or worse.

Anyway ... going to have to replace that main line. Ordered some NiCopp line to make one myself. I've worked with NiCopp some before .... but wanted any opinions on NiCopp vs SS when it comes to sealing at the fittings.

My general feeling at the moment is I hope to never use SS again, I hate the stuff, tough to work with in every way. All the SS lines to the front brakes seem fine. NiCopp on the surface seems the best of both worlds, easy to flare and no rust.

Any comments on flaring NiCopp? I've heard some say you need a high end tool, I've been using my basic setup for many years without a problem doing double flares, typically bar clamp, hand operated screw press etc.

Thanks

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Old 01-06-2022, 07:21 PM
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Stainless is a waste of money in this app.

Spend the saved money on a good flare kit, ie. Blue Point. If possible use a vise to squeeze the bars that much more to prevent slippage.

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Old 01-06-2022, 07:42 PM
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I've got an old Craftman (US made) flaring tool I've been using for a lot of years ... good enough?

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Old 01-06-2022, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dataway View Post

Any comments on flaring NiCopp? I've heard some say you need a high end tool, I've been using my basic setup for many years without a problem doing double flares, typically bar clamp, hand operated screw press etc.
My understanding is it's easier to flare than regular steel lines.

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Old 01-06-2022, 08:08 PM
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Nicopp is excellent. It is all that we use at my shop. It's expensive but worth it. I have the Eastwood flaring tool, which is the best flaring tool that I have ever used.

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Old 01-06-2022, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dataway View Post
I've got an old Craftman (US made) flaring tool I've been using for a lot of years ... good enough?
As long as the serrations aren't worn out it will work fine. I had a very old one that belonged to my Father, probably 60-70 years old, that he used as a mechanic to flare brake line (steel) and it would no longer hold the line as I pushed it with the die to roll the bubble for the double flare. It was just flat out worn out on the 3/16 hole.

FWIW, It's a law that all brake lines have to be double flared, I just mentioned it so everyone that reads this doesn't try to single flare a brake line.

I ended up having to buy a new one that was made like his old one, but of course it was made of chinesium, and although t looked like his old USA made one, it was sloppy in the tooling and I had to fix it before I used it....

I want to purchase one of the hydraulic USA made ones when I get to it.

I only use Nicopp for lines anymore, cooling lines, brake lines, fuel lines, all Nicopp. I do it once and never have to worry about replacing lines again. The frame will rust out, before I have to redo lines on my DDs.

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Old 01-06-2022, 09:42 PM
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First thing, the one that leaks, one trick that has worked for me in the past is to tighten and loosen the joint 3-4 times. Often if you just tighten the fitting and keep tightening, it won't conform properly to the flare, but if you tighten it up and loosen, then tighten then loosen, by the third time the flare and seat have mated and it won't leak. You will know it is mating closer as the wrench will keep turning a bit further with the same torque each time.

Like you, I installed all SS lines on my car but needed to shorten the front to back line where I added a proportioning valve. I did a decent double flare where I shortened the line, but when I tried to make a short line with the surplus SS tubing I could not for the life of me get both ends to double flare without splitting one.

Ended up buying some Nicopp line to make up the short piece and could not believe how easy it was to work with, and would use it again for something homemade.

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Old 01-06-2022, 09:43 PM
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I've done both. SS and NiCopp. Bought a hydraulic flaring tool when i decided to do the SS. I've never had good results doing double flares with a standard bar tool; the hydraulic tool works nicely.

All of my SS flares worked out well and don't leak. The Nicopp sure was easier to work with tho, and flaring was easy also.

George

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Old 01-06-2022, 10:01 PM
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The hardness of material;

1) Copper

2) Nicopp

3) Steel

4) Stainless Steel

Just note that plain copper tubing copper is illegal for brake line because it work hardens under constant vibration. When it becomes work hardened it will crack, and fail.

Unless you have a hydraulic flare tool your chances of a successful double flare on steel is maybe 50/50, stainless is maybe 10/90, maybe less. The worst thing about plain steel is it will rust out again.

When I bought my 1993 K3500 it had just had the rear brake line replaced, within 5 years the replacement line rusted through. This is when I replaced every hard line on the truck with Nicopp. It's not a pleasant job by any means, but I'll never have to do it again.....

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Old 01-07-2022, 02:10 AM
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I used copper-nickel lines on my '59 GMC and rented a great flaring tool from the supplier of the lines. Very easy job. Still no leaks since finishing the truck in 2014.

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Old 01-07-2022, 05:37 AM
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I used the tighten/loosen method on most of the SS lines when I originally installed them .. worked good in most cases, just not on this one joint.

I've done quite a bit of double flaring on steel with a hand tool ... maybe 70/30 success rate ... but requires lots of prep of the tubing end, perfect tubing height above the clamp, greasing the adapter etc. And I always end up with a line too long or too short because I didn't leave enough in case I had to reflare or left extra and didn't have to reflare

I really WANT to buy a nice lever operated/hyd flaring tool .. but I'm doing less and less flaring as the years go by.

I've got about 50' of spare NiCopp 5/16" line from another project to practice on before the 1/4 and 3/16 gets here.

BTW ... the 3/16 SS really destroyed the mating surface inside the brass junction that leads to the rear wheels ... it did seal .. but that hose certainly could never be reused for another line. I expect the hoses with a steel fitting in that location would hold up better. Not sure why some hoses use steel in the location and some use brass.

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Old 01-07-2022, 06:48 AM
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First try turned out nice. Just following the rules for soft copper, don't tighten too much, square tubing ends, chamfer/deburr ID and OD, get the tubing in the clamp very straight.

How do you guys come up with a total length for a line? Like this main line to the back. Are you cutting and flaring the line in place after you've made the bends? I originally installed the line on a mostly bare chassis .. now the exhaust system is installed, body is on the chassis etc. so bending it up ahead of time and installing would be very difficult ... front end not much of a problem but the rear has some pretty complex bends. How many of you have split that line along the frame to get it right?




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Old 01-07-2022, 10:31 AM
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I imagine people have many different ways of making new brake lines. This is the way I do it for better or worse. I do about 300 ft. of brake line a year here at my shop and have a MasterCool hydraulic flaring tool. But prior to getting this tool for father's day 3 years ago, I used a hand flaring tool like in your pics. The flare looks perfect BTW. With a hand flaring tool, I start with my coil of Nickel/copper and slide a nut on and double flare one end in a vise. Then I attach the flared end and run my line bending and fitting it in the original clamps and shaping/forming it as close to the finished look as possible. It bends and forms so easily, this can be done almost entirely with your fingers. That's the huge advantage vs stainless steel which is nearly impossible to bend in the tight/die formed look most collector car/restroation customers want. Once I have the line in place, I mark it and cut for the second flare and form it. This is where the hydraulic flaring tool is worth it's price. The second flare can be made on the car pretty easily and with great results. Using a hand flaring tool, if the line can be removed to make the second flare without damaging it, I remove and make the second flare and reinstall. If it's a long line and difficult to remove, I have used a large pair of vise grips to hold the bar on a manual double flaring tool and make the second flare on the car. It's more difficult but nickel/copper is soft and easy to flare so not too big a deal. Don't forget the second nut!! Don't forget to have it facing the correct direction! Ask me how I know these things! That's a mistake I have made many times I am sorry to admit. Good luck. Everyone loves Nickel/Copper once they have tried it. I don't do SS brake lines anymore unless the customer buys them pre-bent. Then I will try to install them.

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Old 01-07-2022, 11:20 AM
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I take the old line off, bend the Nicopp as per sample, flare one end, install it loosely, make sure it fits well. I then attach it to the frame. Last operation is to flare the other end on the car, and attach the fitting, bleed by gravity, done.

I just did one on my box truck over Christmas and of course I had to do it laying in the driveway. The box truck won't fit into any garage I have currently. it was about 40 degrees that day......

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Old 01-07-2022, 02:21 PM
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I have already cut the old line at the frame so I can pull both pieces out and get a close approximation ... then I'll proceed as you guys have outlined ... figured I would end up flaring at least one side on the car.
Thanks.

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Old 01-07-2022, 03:31 PM
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I used NiCopp on my 2001 Yukon years ago.... the rear line started to leak. I took a look at the ABS pump assy to replace the lin, it's buried inside the frame rails under the driver seat...the scary picture is the pump assy. I decide to move the whole thing to the top of the frame rail in the engine bay and used NiCopp thruout. That's the second pic.

George
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Old 01-07-2022, 05:38 PM
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I'm also a firm believer in the virtues of NiCopp lines. It's just so much easier to form, flare, and get good seals with. Love it.

Looks like you are achieving perfect flares with your tool, too. After borrowing the Eastwood handheld hydraulic flaring tool (same as Mastercool, I believe) from a friend for a quick job, I had to buy one for myself. It makes the job so much more pleasant and flawless, and the ability to flare on the car is a huge advantage over tools that need to be held in a bench vise.

Let us know how you make out.
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Old 01-07-2022, 05:48 PM
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Looks like the same one i have. Used it on SS lines while on the car.

George

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Old 01-07-2022, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george kujanski View Post
I used NiCopp on my 2001 Yukon years ago.... the rear line started to leak. I took a look at the ABS pump assy to replace the lin, it's buried inside the frame rails under the driver seat...the scary picture is the pump assy. I decide to move the whole thing to the top of the frame rail in the engine bay and used NiCopp thruout. That's the second pic.

George
That finished picture looks very nice. That's typical of the jobs I do here in the rust belt. Most local shops around here and the dealers charge in the neighborhood of $1500.00 to run all new metal lines like that. It typically takes me all day to do one from nickel/copper coil stock but I will do them for about half that. Guess that's why I can do all of them I want to. I start by removing each line and using my vacuum bleeder to suck the lines dry. That cuts down on the mess quite a bit. On ABS cars, I make sure and mark the location of each line. Some cars the ABS box is not marked and the lines are all the same size with the same nuts and thread. Others are all different with each port a different thread and nut size. Often you have to use the old nuts on those ABS units because they are very hard to find new. I have had new lines all flared and ready to install only to find the thread pitch and the nuts are different. I have made almost every mistake you can on these brake line jobs. I have little plastic caps to somewhat plug the ABS and MC outlets while bending lines. It's best to keep those units wet if you can. Bleeding can be much more difficult if they run dry.

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Old 01-07-2022, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by george kujanski View Post
I used NiCopp on my 2001 Yukon years ago.... the rear line started to leak. I took a look at the ABS pump assy to replace the lin, it's buried inside the frame rails under the driver seat...the scary picture is the pump assy. I decide to move the whole thing to the top of the frame rail in the engine bay and used NiCopp thruout. That's the second pic.

George
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