[68RamII]

Hello Everyone,

What are the general thoughts on frame restoration when it comes to the stress marks in the frame? I need to fill the rust pits and then apply a high build primer to make the frame smooth while trying not to get rid of the stress marks in the frame. Do the judges at a national event really look at these minor details?


Thank You,

[SWEETJUDGE]

what stress marks are you referring to???? i just did a frame off on my judge myself.
we found 4 cracked areas of 4 spd abuse we needed to weld up & i replaced a frame horn as it was hit in the front at some point. Keep in mind by the time you put everything under the car its hard to see much. Another word of advice, the PERFECT cars get picked on the most as they try to find something wrong when its that good

[rustedgoat]

I think he is talking about the minor ripples in some area when the frames are formed. Like Sweet said, you really do have to remember that very little of the frame can actually be seen once the body and front clip is installed.

Trying to get the correct shades of black for the frame, susp, and floors is going to be what drives you nuts. What everyone else is using doesn't make it correct. I'd like to know if there are any proving award winning current paint formulas (not 1980's) that anyone would like to share. I know some primers look close but I feel if the manufacturers recommend them being top coated, then you can't expect them to hold up witout a topcoat.

[The Boss]

Scott, John's talking about those ripples and marks which are in a frame when it is bent on the jig. I'd also be interested in the welding slag & other imperfections. I'm doing a convertible frame like John and if I was paying for the welding which was done on mine originally, I'd shoot the guy!

[68RamII]

Sweet and Rusted,

Yes, I am talking about the marks on the frame that are from the factory that appear to be stress from where the frame parts were bent. Dimples may be a better way to describe them.

I ask because I have seen frame that are SMOOTH and you can barely notice that a weld is a weld.

Thanks Again,

[68RamII]

Chris,

At this point I have removed the weld slag but the welds still look like welds. But do I leave as many of the ripples as possible or do I not worry about them???

I guess my thoughts when doing a restoration are..... If you could go back and find that perfect car. That one car that rolled off of the assembly line that had no weld slag. That car that had the door edge gaps that fit perfect. That perfect car but it still has the inherent flaws from the factory. That is my idea of a correct restoration but it seems that in todays market, the car that is a touch over restored will win. What do you guys think?

[goatnut]

I left all the marks and welds on mine just like it came from the factory. Thats the way it came. But thats just just me and the way I wanted mine.

[The Boss]

I'm leaving the slag on, filling the pits and painting - there will be a few runs in the paint just for effect - which prompts a question, the frames went through upside down correct? Also, shouldn't there be 4 unpainted dolly marks on the frame from where it was on the dolly when it got painted? Were the frames dipped?

I'll be fussy with body lines and gaps, but am on the fence when it comes to some orange peel in the finish paint.

I like the fact it was built by men who would sometimes have a beer or two with their lunch.

[Mark Simiele]

John, my frame off was done almost 8 years ago and little was done to over-restore the frame at all if anything. Frame was chemically stripped, any damage was repaired, welds and marks left intact, there are a few paint runs and very few pits were filled, then it was painted. Thats it and I took a gold in concourse at Saratoga so I wouldn't go too crazy and worry that much, you will be fine.

Like others said, once the body is back on, its dark under there and any minor flaws will be well hidden. When judges look at the undercarriage they want to see a clean, leak free, correctly painted/finished undercarriage and will not be spending much time under there at all.

[SWEETJUDGE]

you answerd your own question. PONTIAC didnt build PERFECT CARS.... leave all that stuff its there........
i went nutts for 3 months on my frame & underbody... car looks brand new but the body guy said i was fricken nutts....... & you wont see a 1/4 of the work i did

i guess it also depends on what kinda car yur building a show wining trailer queen or an all original style just rolled off the factory line..... nothing overdone

[PaulatFast]

While no points would be deducted for nasty welds and slag, points would definately be deducted for smoothed and filled welds. Rust pitting is another area guys will lose a few points if not addressed. We all know the factory workers weren't building show cars, flaws are expected in workmanship areas, however the rust obviously wasn't present as the cars rolled off the assembly line.

[motorcitymusclecar]

Paul is right on - all the factory flaws are ok - welds, draw marks and forming marks are all ok. But what sticks out are pitts and rusty areas that have not been fixed. The frame from the factory did not have rust or pitts so this would have to be fixed. Any pitts should be filled and sanded. At the GTOAA nats we only have 20-30 minutes to look at a car and if it is a bit smoother than it should be or a few welds were ground i doubt in that time it would be found. But if it looks way over restored or un-natural that could be a point deduction. Here is a few pictures.



Hope this helps - john - www.inlinetube.com

[68RamII]

Thanks for your replies!!

I now have about 24 hours of filling and sanding into my frame. My fingers are just about shot and I would also add that it would be almost impossible to fill the rust pits and sand this frame if I had left the weld slag in tact. How would you sand around the slag?

Mark, it sounds like your frame was in very good shape. Luckily the engine leaked oil terribly which helped but still had a bunch of pits.

John, first let me say thanks for spending some time with me the other day. It was appreciated. Looking at the pictures that I have collected and at the pictures you posted of your frame it would appear that "all control arms", front and rear are painted with some sort of orginal steel type color. This also includes the rear differential housing. Once the items are installed, a blackout coat of chassis black paint was sprayed over the items. Is this corrrect? Would this be correct for a 1968 GTO also?

Thanks Everyone,

[rustedgoat]

I pretty sure the flash is washing out the black on his contol arms. Here are some other pictures of the Inline tube car. I got them off his website somewhere.

[PaulatFast]

John's frame, I beleive, is from a very low mile Oldsmobile, I was told the car had no signs of paint on the control arms and they are restoring it as found. This information is not directly from John, so take it for what it's worth. On your 68 the control arms should be black, and would be considered wrong if left natural. Unless you had a documented 19,000 mile car and could document the absence of paint...

[motorcitymusclecar]

Hey John

Generally speaking there are many ways to skin the cat. The frames were dipped in black that is for sure. The other pieces were comming from different manufactures and were bare steel, black, phosphate - who really knows. On one car they could be bare steel and on another they may have been dipped in black. When we did my 69 judge we found them to be black but it was hard to tell if it was sprayed on after assembly or before. We have done several cars and while they vary the only way to know what was done on a particular car is to see it when it was new. The last car we finished was a low mile 23,000 never rusty and had color and detail left to the underside. The front control arms and the rear control arms were bare steel or phosphate. So that is how we left them. All this stuff was to be blacked out on the rolling chassie but this car had very little of the spray. So that is how we left it.

Other cars had heavy spray, we have seen it on the bushings, lines, cables, drums - it all depended on the guy with the guy in his hand. It is well accepted to do all these parts in black - but they were most likley bare steel with black paint on them.

On the next show car i do i will be doing them in steel paint and putting the black overspray on them - some will accept it and others will not. The safe bet is to just paint the black.

[dr-doug]

John, You might want to change that to "the guy with the gun in his hand".....DW

[motorcitymusclecar]

you got it - i know my typing is bad at times, it would be nice if this site auto corrected like my email, it would save me some time or maybe i should read what i write but who has time for that - i just want to hit the POST QUICK REPLY and move on.