[Transamric]

Originally Posted by Wareagle

This vintage pic -RAM AIR IV -? .

Nope. The TA in that magazine article was a RAIII.

[Transamric]

FWIW,....back in the day, WA., OR., & ID. were required to have front plates.

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by Transamric

Nope. The TA in that magazine article was a RAIII.

Still cool though - back in 70's took out a 70 T/A 400 4 spd white with blue stripe for a test drive - solid rails on handling - Quick out of the corners -did'nt even check at the time if it was a III or IV.
Was driving a almost new 76 455 4 spd T/A at the time - shoulda grabbed it .

[roundportponchos]

This car was sold new in south, it was a Norwood car. The front licence plate, had the owners initials, not a state plate..

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

Someone posted this RAIV was sold new "down south"??? Suprises me a bit.. I have been out fo town and came in late on this thread... was suprised to not hear anyone comment on the front license plate holder. 1970 California cars and a few midwest states required front license plates in 1970- majority of 70 models did not have this holder up front. I wasn't aware that any of our southern states required the front license plate holder-I could be wrong, have been before..most assuredly will be again... but I just don't recall any southern states that required this option in 1970.... Have any of you ever found a 70-73 Nose that has not been tapped for the front license plate holder?? This is one way I know I have a real 70 Nose vs a later one-doesn't really matter, they all look teh same, all had the mounting boss up front... Majority of the 70's were not tapped for the 2 screw holes..... I am pretty sure all 71's started using the front license plate holder...

As far as extractor grilles. Black.. I have a dozen or so originals i have bought and or taken off cars and they are all black. Personally, I think(and this is just my guess) that the extractor was painted before the grille material was glues in from teh back. I think the grille material was black phosphate plated. Notice the black is always a flatter shade of black than the 60%/semi that is used all over the engine compartment.. The method is just my guess, but I would bet a bunch they were all black originally. Plus the "center fold" from the 1970 Firebird Pontiac sales flyer,has a White TA close up rolling down a track and you can see the extractor is black.. There is a straight on shot, even with the extractor probably 25 feet away from the car, it is black..

One interesting thing about this PMD 1970 flyer is...the TA's are shown with Goodyear Poly tires, the formulas are shown with Firestone Wide Ovals...I am sure this will get our Formulas friends commenting...

But the RAIV, still looks like a Van Nuys car to me... With what little info is available from the picture, VN looked like that, 90% of Norwood cars did not...

[68bird400HO]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

Someone posted this RAIV was sold new "down south"??? Suprises me a bit.. I have been out fo town and came in late on this thread... was suprised to not hear anyone comment on the front license plate holder. 1970 California cars and a few midwest states required front license plates in 1970- majority of 70 models did not have this holder up front. I wasn't aware that any of our southern states required the front license plate holder-I could be wrong, have been before..most assuredly will be again... but I just don't recall any southern states that required this option in 1970.... Have any of you ever found a 70-73 Nose that has not been tapped for the front license plate holder?? This is one way I know I have a real 70 Nose vs a later one-doesn't really matter, they all look teh same, all had the mounting boss up front... Majority of the 70's were not tapped for the 2 screw holes..... I am pretty sure all 71's started using the front license plate holder...

As far as extractor grilles. Black.. I have a dozen or so originals i have bought and or taken off cars and they are all black. Personally, I think(and this is just my guess) that the extractor was painted before the grille material was glues in from teh back. I think the grille material was black phosphate plated. Notice the black is always a flatter shade of black than the 60%/semi that is used all over the engine compartment.. The method is just my guess, but I would bet a bunch they were all black originally. Plus the "center fold" from the 1970 Firebird Pontiac sales flyer,has a White TA close up rolling down a track and you can see the extractor is black.. There is a straight on shot, even with the extractor probably 25 feet away from the car, it is black..

One interesting thing about this PMD 1970 flyer is...the TA's are shown with Goodyear Poly tires, the formulas are shown with Firestone Wide Ovals...I am sure this will get our Formulas friends commenting...

But the RAIV, still looks like a Van Nuys car to me... With what little info is available from the picture, VN looked like that, 90% of Norwood cars did not...

Bill (or anyone),

On the original extractor screens that you have, you say the appear black phosphate. I was sort of thinking the same thing when I looked at mine but didn't know for sure if they had ever been repainted. The area of the screen that you see seemed to have a rough texture to it and kind of the sparkly affect you get with the black phosphate, but, the other side and the edge areas of the screen hidden under the fiberglass extractor seemed a bit more like the 60% gloss black. Do your originals have that rough sparkly texture?

On the tires, for 70-72 if your car had the F60x15s were they always the Goodyear Polyglas GTs or did some cars (depending on plant) get the Firestone Wide Ovals?

[Shift'n Gears]

In 1970 Pontiac listed two differet HP ratings for RAIV engines. FOr GTO's & Judges it was 370 and for the TA it was 345. The difference from what I have researched is attributed to a "stop" in the carb that prevented it from going to WOT. Is there anybody that has seen this "Stop" in the carb?

[Transamric]

There's no "stop". This is another one of those Pontiac urban legends that just refuses to go away.
The reason for the "apparent" HP difference between 'F' & 'A' body in '70, is due to the fact that the early 1970 Dealership literature quoted the 1969 FB HP figures. Since the 2nd Gen. was a late intro, this was the best info available at the time of printing. In reality, the 1970 FB HP numbers were the same as in GTO/Judge.
An argument has been made that the Firebirds' crossflow muffler was more restrictive than the 'A' bodies smaller dual mufflers, but this has not been proven to be enough of a difference to account for 25 HP (345 to 370).

[Shift'n Gears]

Transamric - Thanks!!

[70RAlll]

I also agree with TAric's reply, but would add this. There was a year(I can't recall) when Pontiac had a difference in HP for models using a restrictive,"stopped out", carb-think it was 69?, but this did not happen to the 1970 RAIV's..Actually everything I have read shows seperate engine ID numbers for TA/GTO 1970 RAIV when in fact the TA engines were GTO stamped engines taken from the same assembly line that the GTO's engines came from, same stamping and all.There were no TA stamped RAIV engines, they all were the stamping codes for GTO's... Difference in GTO's exhaust vs TA's exhaust was negligable in 1970 RAIV vehicles...

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by 68bird400HO

Bill (or anyone),

On the original extractor screens that you have, you say the appear black phosphate. I was sort of thinking the same thing when I looked at mine but didn't know for sure if they had ever been repainted. The area of the screen that you see seemed to have a rough texture to it and kind of the sparkly affect you get with the black phosphate, but, the other side and the edge areas of the screen hidden under the fiberglass extractor seemed a bit more like the 60% gloss black. Do your originals have that rough sparkly texture?

On the tires, for 70-72 if your car had the F60x15s were they always the Goodyear Polyglas GTs or did some cars (depending on plant) get the Firestone Wide Ovals?

Yes, the originals I have appear to have the "sparkly" texture on the screens, which is why I suspect( and that is all it is, a guess) that the screens were originally phosphate before they were stamped into the squares that ended up being glued on the extractor.Sort of like what was done with the alternator fans. They were stamped from sheets of galvanized metal, I believe this screen material was phosphate plated then stampe cut into the squares. Then again, this is such a hard finish to call after 40 years.. I know most restorers just paint then semi gloss, which I think is acceptable.. For complete correctness, I think either flat black or send out and have them phosphate will look better. I am cutting mine out for my 71 and will reglue them . That is just my method, not saying it is the right one..

As far as tires, I have alwas accepted the Goodyear polyglass tires as the right one on TA's.I have 2 JW spare tires,with original tires that never hit the ground(most likely still hold original 1970 air !!) and they were Polyglass. I was just making the point that the PMD promotional flyer for the 1970 Firebird line, on the formula pages,showed wide ovals, which suprised me. I have had this brochure for 3 years or so and never really paid attention to this particular picture until the other night. Maybe the smaller wheel came with wide ovals and the JW's came with Goodyear?? who knows, or the promo pictures were just that, promo pictures and changes were made after the fact to tire suppliers.. But the brochure definately shows a Firestone tire for the formulas...

[robz]

Originally Posted by Transamric

There's no "stop". This is another one of those Pontiac urban legends that just refuses to go away.
The reason for the "apparent" HP difference between 'F' & 'A' body in '70, is due to the fact that the early 1970 Dealership literature quoted the 1969 FB HP figures. Since the 2nd Gen. was a late intro, this was the best info available at the time of printing. In reality, the 1970 FB HP numbers were the same as in GTO/Judge.
An argument has been made that the Firebirds' crossflow muffler was more restrictive than the 'A' bodies smaller dual mufflers, but this has not been proven to be enough of a difference to account for 25 HP (345 to 370).

Rick, I always thought it was the 10% of weight rule they used here, so A-body showed more HP than F-body, due to heavier car, when in reality they were identical?

[CaptCrunch]

Originally Posted by robz

Rick, I always thought it was the 10% of weight rule they used here, so A-body showed more HP than F-body, due to heavier car, when in reality they were identical?

This is what I've always heard..........

[toomanybirds]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

I also agree with TAric's reply, but would add this. There was a year(I can't recall) when Pontiac had a difference in HP for models using a restrictive,"stopped out", carb-think it was 69?, but this did not happen to the 1970 RAIV's..Actually everything I have read shows seperate engine ID numbers for TA/GTO 1970 RAIV when in fact the TA engines were GTO stamped engines taken from the same assembly line that the GTO's engines came from, same stamping and all.There were no TA stamped RAIV engines, they all were the stamping codes for GTO's... Difference in GTO's exhaust vs TA's exhaust was negligable in 1970 RAIV vehicles...

I have a carburetor from a 68 Firebird 400HO that has a stop in the linkage to keep the secondaries from opening all the way. I would estimate that it opens about 10-20% less than carbs without the stop. It was common to modify this to allow full opening. I think I recall seeing this mod described in an old HO newsletter. The carb I have has not been modified.

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

1970 RAIV when in fact the TA engines were GTO stamped engines taken from the same assembly line that the GTO's engines came from, same stamping and all.There were no TA stamped RAIV engines, they all were the stamping codes for GTO's

That's right. I purchased a 1970 Ram Air IV 4-speed Judge convertible in 1985 with a NOM. I later picked up a WW block with a good cast date for my car. I sent for the PHS on the block, and it was a 1970 Trans Am block--same exact block. (This block still had standard bore with no ridge at the top--I believe it was used when the car was restored.) Incidentally, this was the Palladium Silver car with a black top that sold at Mecum a few years ago.

[70RAlll]

Originally Posted by toomanybirds

I have a carburetor from a 68 Firebird 400HO that has a stop in the linkage to keep the secondaries from opening all the way. I would estimate that it opens about 10-20% less than carbs without the stop. It was common to modify this to allow full opening. I think I recall seeing this mod described in an old HO newsletter. The carb I have has not been modified.

YES, that is exactly what I was referring to,just couldn't recall what years GM had this system implemented. Something to do with GM's HP/Cubic Inches mandate...something like that. So the "urban myth" did have some truth to it...just never used on 2nd gen Firebirds to my knowledge.. Thanks for posting this.. I knew there was in fact some years GM used secondary stops to limit HP...

[T A 70]

Originally Posted by toomanybirds

I have a carburetor from a 68 Firebird 400HO that has a stop in the linkage to keep the secondaries from opening all the way. I would estimate that it opens about 10-20% less than carbs without the stop. It was common to modify this to allow full opening. I think I recall seeing this mod described in an old HO newsletter. The carb I have has not been modified.

That is correct.

[Transamric]

Originally Posted by robz

Rick, I always thought it was the 10% of weight rule they used here, so A-body showed more HP than F-body, due to heavier car, when in reality they were identical?

IIRC, that GM 10% rule was lifted in 1970. That's why Chevy could put a 454 in a Chevelle, & Pontiac, Olds & Buick could sell 455's in 'A' bodies (although usually at underrated HP's). In reality, if you check typical weights for a '70 TA & GTO with comparable equipment, you see that there was very little weight difference. Usually not more than 100-150lbs.

[Transamric]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

YES, that is exactly what I was referring to,just couldn't recall what years GM had this system implemented. Something to do with GM's HP/Cubic Inches mandate...something like that. So the "urban myth" did have some truth to it...just never used on 2nd gen Firebirds to my knowledge.. Yes, that's my understanding too. Can't say for sure about 1968 Qjet's, whether RA versions had that tab or not. But my point was that '70 & up never did, hence my "urban legend" reference. Thanks for posting this.. I knew there was in fact some years GM used secondary stops to limit HP...

.......

[CaptCrunch]

Originally Posted by Transamric

IIRC, that GM 10% rule was lifted in 1970. That's why Chevy could put a 454 in a Chevelle, & Pontiac, Olds & Buick could sell 455's in 'A' bodies (although usually at underrated HP's). In reality, if you check typical weights for a '70 TA & GTO with comparable equipment, you see that there was very little weight difference. Usually not more than 100-150lbs.

I thought what he was referring to was the GM 1-HP per 10lbs gross rule......my understanding is that that was the reason for the earlier carb tab and the lower HP figures for birds.....

[Shift'n Gears]

Originally Posted by toomanybirds

I have a carburetor from a 68 Firebird 400HO that has a stop in the linkage to keep the secondaries from opening all the way. I would estimate that it opens about 10-20% less than carbs without the stop. It was common to modify this to allow full opening. I think I recall seeing this mod described in an old HO newsletter. The carb I have has not been modified.

Could you post pics? Curiosity....Never seen that before.