[moontower69]

I was watching an episode of Roadkill (Extra) and Dave Freiburger was asked about GTOs in terms of cars he likes. No secret, he's a diehard Mopar guy and also seems to like Fords and Chevys.

He said he NEVER liked Pontiac engines because they have a "design flaw in the lifter valley". Does anyone know exactly what he means by this - and is he right? How does it affect performance? I know the classic issue with Ponchos is head flow at higher RPMs (although the result of that limitation is low torque which is the Pontiac secret sauce on the other hand).

Also, he said GTOs are "just okay, they're just Chevelles".

As a Poncho lover (and I love Mopar too), I never understood why Roadkill hates on Pontiacs. Sometimes, to be fair, Freiburger will acknowledge the 455s but says the Buick made more torque. And Finnegan at least confessed a love of Firebirds as a teenager (there's an episode with a white Firebird that they end up, gasp, putting a 350 in).

Just curious about engine design differences among the great big three.

[1968GTO421]

Originally Posted by moontower69

I was watching an episode of Roadkill (Extra) and Dave Freiburger was asked about GTOs in terms of cars he likes. No secret, he's a diehard Mopar guy and also seems to like Fords and Chevys.

He said he NEVER liked Pontiac engines because they have a "design flaw in the lifter valley". Does anyone know exactly what he means by this - and is he right? How does it affect performance? I know the classic issue with Ponchos is head flow at higher RPMs (although the result of that limitation is low torque which is the Pontiac secret sauce on the other hand).

Also, he said GTOs are "just okay, they're just Chevelles".

As a Poncho lover (and I love Mopar too), I never understood why Roadkill hates on Pontiacs. Sometimes, to be fair, Freiburger will acknowledge the 455s but says the Buick made more torque. And Finnegan at least confessed a love of Firebirds as a teenager (there's an episode with a white Firebird that they end up, gasp, putting a 350 in).

Just curious about engine design differences among the great big three.

I think he's referring to the factory lifter bore design, it's "open" around the bores whereas other engines are pretty much solid iron in the lifter valley with the lifter bores looking like they were "drilled" in. On the left is Chevy lifter bores, on the right is Pontiac lifter bores.

[Sirrotica]

I would assume he's talking about the open valley as opposed to a solid lifter valley. Pontiac cast extra material into their real high performance blocks, aftermarket blocks cast even more material in their blocks to further strengthen the castings.

Using the open valley as a reason to avoid Pontiacs is a bit wide sweeping statement, been a lot of factory blocks that lived in high HP applications for more than just one race. The guys that designed the first Pontiacs did an admirable job I believe, I never thought of the open valley as a huge mistake in initial design. Using factory blocks is always going to be a factor in HP use, but if Freiburger wanted to build a Pontiac luckily we have alternatives for stronger blocks. I believe he's just incredibly prejudiced, as I am too. I don't like chevys fords or mopars. Never been beaten by a buick 455 either....

[moontower69]

That makes sense.

So is the issue that the Poncho lifter bores can "crack" with high RPM and abuse? Is it a limitation on RPM or just a longevity/abuse thing?

[moontower69]

Freiburger can quibble with lifter bore nonsense.

But we all agree that Pontiacs had something truly special in terms of style and aesthetics. The body lines and overall art in the design is so American and bold. GTOs, Grands Ams and Grand Prixs.

For me, I guess 68 Dodge Charger is my second favorite body design after GTOs. Heck, I LOVE and drive the 73 Colonnade every day. - Roadkill doesn't know what its missing.

[Steve C.]

Related.....

Lifter bore braces

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...pressure+angle

'Roller Pressure Angle'


.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by moontower69

He said he NEVER liked Pontiac engines because they have a "design flaw in the lifter valley".

Also, he said GTOs are "just okay, they're just Chevelles".

Freiberger: the arbiter of all things automotive.

[moontower69]

I think Freiburger is talking about 68-72 Chevelles v. GTOs (and basic body similarities/dimensions).

Yeah, they're similar but GTOs have way more art and styling. The Chevelles were cool but basically a watered down version of the GTO A-body in my view. (And I don't care about tiny differences in quarter mile performance personally between the two cars).

Its all good. Drive and work on what you like!

[Bill Hanlon]

Look at the fine print below the "Roadkill" logo when they come back from commercials. I'm pretty sure it says "sponsored by Dodge". Probably has something to do with the "stars" disdain with Pontiacs.

[george kujanski]

Just visually, the Pontiac lifter bore design looks weaker.

George

[PONTIAC LARRY]

I am a big fan of the shows on MTOD and those guys but they are pretty low knowledge on Pontiacs. Seems our OEM blocks can hold as much or actually more power reliable than oem 351w blocks that are made in to strokers. They seem to fail once over 550-575 hp and those are great design engines but oem still breaks. If your buzzing a motor 1000 rpm past its HP capability of its design your not using it right.

[mgarblik]

I think his term "design flaw" is a little overblown and works well with his general dislike of Pontiac's and Pontiac engines. No doubt he spent much of his youth with his eyes wide open in his Chevelle or Mopar while Pontiac after Pontiac with the "design defect" in their engines disappeared as a tiny dot before him. Everyone has their favorite brand of car and every production engine design is some sort of compromise. IMO, the lifter bore/valley issue is way overblown by the Pontiac community and the haters. Not a great design, agreed. Having a stressed, side loaded piece of cast iron hanging unsupported in the lifter gallery isn't great. It also could have been easily addressed and was in the real HP engines where that was needed. I have owned, raced, enjoyed an awful lot of Pontiacs for many decades. Never used a lifter brace, never broken a lifter bore. I have seen plenty of them broken though, so it can be an issue.
His preferred brand, Mopar, has some of the ugliest, roughest, poorly cast and machined V-8 engine blocks and heads ever produced by any American manufacturer. Doesn't mean I don't like or appreciate them. You can't like everything and stay on TV.

[Formulas]

Was it this site or another that somebody welded in plates in the entire lifter valley making it solid wonder how that turned out, believe it was a 389

[Steve C.]

I know in 1997 Jim Butler was MIG-welding braces into the lifter galley area for the stated "race-track reliability". It was pictured in the July/August issue of Pontiac Enthusiast magazine.

"The technique of metal-to-cast-iron welding is not for amateurs, but Jim has figured out how to do it"


.

[David Jones]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it's wrong.

[MarkS57]

If you look hard enough, you can find a design flaw in a lotta things. I remember the SBC having issues with the cam walking back and forth hitting the timing cover if spring pressures were high. Don't know what the fix for that was, don't hear about it much anymore. And it looks to me like the Buick oil pump and distributor drive was an afterthought rather than part of the initial design.

[Tom Vaught]

The "other" design flaw which was known in the 60s was that the Pontiac engine could see stress from large stroke crankshafts and separated intake manifolds. They were running cheater engines with 4.75" stroke cranks.

Separated Intake Manifolds being the Injection Manifolds (or 4 and 6 carb manifolds) that were separate pieces.
One Injection Manifold/ carb manifold for each bank.
Joy Fair and Al Gonsales told me that the Pontiac block needed "tie bars" between the two heads to keep the blocks from cracking in the crank main web to camshaft bore area. Some members will remember I posted about this many years ago.

So I believe what Al and Joy told me based on their racing Pontiacs in the early 60s on circle tracks.
Would not call it a design flaw as the Pontiacs in production all used one piece intake manifolds.

SB Fords will split up the middle too if you try the same modifications.

Tom V.

[Skip Fix]

But how many of us would like to throw an extra motor, maybe even blown, in a chassis we've had for years and with a buddy hop in and just drive the sucker to a far away event(with a crew following)-if it makes it-and get paid for it! Sounds like a dream job to me.

I like all brands loved Mopar bodies, had a4 speed power nothing 383 RoadrunnerI got a deal on it after I broke my 409 Impala) before I bought the 78 TA new. The TA converted me to Pontiac power. EVERY Mopar I've been in was a rattle trap! But nice body styles.69 Charger, 70 Challenger, Maybe a 70 AAR Cuda. Old Mopar SS cars do Sox and Martin and Dick Landy just looked bad.

And on that Roadrunner don;t even think getting #5& #7 spark plugs out was easy!

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by moontower69

I was watching an episode of Roadkill (Extra) and Dave Freiburger was asked about GTOs in terms of cars he likes. No secret, he's a diehard Mopar guy and also seems to like Fords and Chevys.

This guys charm is that he comes across as a down to earth, meat and potateos kinda guy... but his fame has gotten to his head, and I often find myself irritated with him - which is why I often ignore the link when some family member or friend shares with me another roadkill ect link.
It seems to be to a growing number of people who fall into the camp of "if freiburger says it, it must be true" ...

...He said he NEVER liked Pontiac engines because they have a "design flaw in the lifter valley". ...

His design flaw is weak sauce, because every single engine has it's weak points, to white wash all Pontiac's because of his opinion of a design flaw is well, silly.

...Also, he said GTOs are "just okay, they're just Chevelles".

oh come on.
that is as asinine a comment as I have read in a good while.
Does he say the same thing about Skylarks and Cutlasses?

Sure GM corporate required their divisions to use the same basic arcitecture, but without the GTO, the Chevelle SS would never have happened - I believe it took a full model year for Chevrolet to create the Super Sport package for the Chevelle - which was a direct response to the GTO.
Imagine how lack lustre the Chevelle would be without the Super Sport!?

There was a really good article in Hemmings Muscle Machines recently which compared a Cutlass 442 and a Skylark GS;
It served to give the reader a feel for the difference in feel for driving them ect - the divisions had unique drivertrains which alone change the character in a car.

I say ignore freiburger, and let him harken back to his 'Car Craft' (or what ever Chevrolet dominated magazine he comes from) roots...

[RocktimusPryme]

I watch almost all of the extras as well as the original episodes on MToD. Ol' Dave often gets bashed as a Pontiac hater here and on Facebook. He has said some negative things, that said, many of the negative things he has mentioned I have also seen threads about on here trying to fix the problems. As someone who has seen almost all of that stuff, I have also seen him say that he likes some aspects of them. He is also an unabashed BB Chevy lover, which I think most even here would agree have a leg up on making huge huge horsepower over the Pontiac mills.

I do think he too often puts Pontiac in the BOP world as one, and I don't think Pontiac has near the drawbacks as those two in several departments, including aftermarket support. While I have heard of many poncho owners pumping their oil pans dry, I think oiling is a way bigger problem with BBBs and BBOs.

Conversations like this almost end up being like politics. Where people only acknowledge the disagreements and never want to pay attention to the common ground or listen to any of the logic. I do remember him saying GTOs are just Chevelles. I wouldn't say I agree, but he is also kinda right for what its worth lol. Bottom line is we ALL have opinions on engines, models, and makes that would start fights if you say them to the wrong people. (74 to 76 F bodies are ugly. Im sorry, but you people need to seek help ) Dave has his, but he is famous so its easier to fixate on them. I personally would rather thank the guy for letting me have car shows to watch like Engine Masters vs only having Fast N Loud