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Old 02-27-2021, 11:58 AM
ponchorob ponchorob is offline
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Default Once again crower 60919 cam degree

The more i read the more im confused.....

So want and going to degree my crower 60919 so crower card say lope separation is 112 they also say when using intake centerline Methode install 108
So want to do right,,,at First finding true topdeadcenter....then install first dot to dot to See where i am....so if it checks out lets say 112 icl.....ill have to advance 4 degrees .on the cam or on the crank.?.?..?..so my confusion now we have cam and crank degrees 1:2.... so to advance 4 degrees to get from 112 to 108 icl....how do i get there....simple to take the 4 degree advance key on the crank shaft sprocket...or 8 degree key advance ( cause crank degrees is half cam degrees....

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Old 02-27-2021, 12:22 PM
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The 112 ICL or 108 ICL are in crankshaft degrees. So you need to advance 4 degrees @ the crankshaft

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Old 02-27-2021, 04:26 PM
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Crower states 4 degrees of advance has been ground into this Camshaft.


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Old 02-27-2021, 04:55 PM
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So if theres a 4 degree advance build in why should i advance an other 4 degrees

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Old 02-27-2021, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponchorob View Post
So if theres a 4 degree advance build in why should i advance an other 4 degrees
You shouldn't have to advance it four degrees, it should be at 108. But you won't know until you degree it and see where it's at.

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Old 02-27-2021, 07:34 PM
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Another tid bit of interest, some have found when checked their 60919 cam has not been ground with a 112 LSA on their cams received. This not to imply some are not at the stated 112 LSA advertised.


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Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

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5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
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Old 03-05-2021, 03:27 AM
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And in case we confused you more. Crower has included the 4° when they tell you to set the intake centerline at 108°.

In a perfect world you would set things dot to dot and would find centerline at 108°. Since that rarely happens you will have to adjust to get to that point.

I checked my very old Crower 60919 card and they changed things over the years. My card says 113 LSA and intake centerline should be 109°.

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Old 03-05-2021, 08:18 AM
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If you have a multi key timing set its done on the crank gear. If you dont, ive always done it with a off set cam key. Once you know what dot to dot is then just try it with what ever you have whether it be a cam key or crank key. The change will tell you where your at and then just keep going from there . If you over or under shot the degree wheel will tell you which way to go from there.

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Old 03-07-2021, 11:11 AM
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So seems they changed the crower60919 cam or redesigned the cam a little..so my cam card says install when using intake centerline method on 108 degree.....so if install dot to dot.. and it shows 108 it would be perfect..if not ill adjust with my crank key 9 way cloyes .set up......

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Old 03-07-2021, 11:21 AM
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........what makes me wonder that some other 60919 users witj different cam card must advance 4 degree to get to 1aprox 109 degree...which cliff ruggle suggest to run best...so if my cam works out 108 dot dot without further advance th cam must be completely different

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Old 03-07-2021, 11:23 AM
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Like lust speed said they must have changed the cam a little

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Old 03-07-2021, 11:35 AM
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Cam card for a 60919 cam I bought years ago.
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Old 03-07-2021, 02:53 PM
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Clif Ruggles engine linked here when testing the "new" KRE heads, at that time regarding the Crower 60919 cam it was stated 113 LSA and installed at 109 ICL.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0501...-dyno-results/

Comment from another thread....

"I street and track tested the Crower 60919 cam at 107ICL, 109, 111 and 113. It does NOT like 107ICL although it idled a little better and felt a tad snappier on the street at lower RPM's. At the track it slowed down, even in short times so it's not making as much power in the loaded RPM range despite regurgitated information folks put up on the NET about "advancing cams for more low end torque"."
Cliff Ruggles

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...&highlight=113

And today if you use the Crower Cam Finder it states 112 LSA and 108 ICL

https://www.crower.com/cam-card-finder/


.

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Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

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5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
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Old 03-07-2021, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
Comment from another thread....
That 6X head went just over 230 CFM. Very possible an engine using a 260 CFM port or greater may prefer another intake centerline.

Unfortunately Crower does not post their @ .200 duration but I suspect the Crower 60919 intake is max 140 @ .200 or a bit less. For comparison an Ultradyne H5 lobe is 143 @ .200.


Last edited by pastry_chef; 03-07-2021 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 03-07-2021, 05:38 PM
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Might be of interest, a post I made in 2018 that relates.....

I had a discussion with Shane a cam designer at Crower and I asked at what tappet lift do they rate their hydraulic flat tappet cams at..... in essence he said it did not matter and suggested not much happens regarding air flow until above 1000 rpm or so anyway and then gave an explanation. And he further commented that it will vary with their different cams, they are not all the same. He actually asked, are you trying to use it for input into the "Wallace" program

He asked what cam was I interested in, so for an example I mentioned the 60919. He looked up his master design profile numbers for it. He said that specific cam is designed at .005" tappet lift for 301 degrees duration. He further reported it has 139 degrees at 0.200" tappet lift. He said the most important are the .050" and .200" numbers. He further commented it could be as much as 306 degrees and 142 at .200 lift, and to be honest I did not fully understand his reason or I misunderstood on those numbers. So take that with a grain of salt ! But in his detailed discussion he did confirm my comment that the amount of duration actually delivered at the valve under running conditions will vary. The hydraulic lifter gives under running conditions for a host of reasons... rpm, oil temperature, weight of oil, etc.

He confirmed the lobe lift is 0.3130", but when I asked about the lobe separation he stated it was 112 and not 113 as sometimes touted.

Don't shoot the messenger here... it was a lengthy conversation and this is in short and I hope I got it correct. I wish I had a transcript !

Edit: On another phone call a Crower rep said the cams are rated at .006" tappet lift.


.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 03-07-2021 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 03-07-2021, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
I mentioned the 60919. He looked up his master design profile numbers for it. He said that specific cam is designed at .005" tappet lift for 301 degrees duration. He further reported it has 139 degrees at 0.200" tappet lift. He said the most important are the .050" and .200" numbers. He further commented it could be as much as 306 degrees and 142 at .200 lift,
Thanks Steve, he was possibly referring to production differences / grinding wheel size etc. 139 @ .200 sounds like their blueprint spec.

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Old 03-07-2021, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
Might be of interest, a post I made in 2018 that relates.....

He confirmed the lobe lift is 0.3130", but when I asked about the lobe separation he stated it was 112 and not 113 as sometimes touted.

Don't shoot the messenger here... it was a lengthy conversation and this is in short and I hope I got it correct. I wish I had a transcript !

Edit: On another phone call a Crower rep said the cams are rated at .006" tappet lift.


.
Steve,
I don't know what year catalog this is. The date for the pdf is Jan 2014. Note all the cams say 112.

Stan
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Old 03-07-2021, 06:23 PM
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Related to pastry_chef comment in his post #16. Years ago I ordered a Ultradyne solid roller cam from Bullet Racing Cams. The cam I received had 2 more degrees duration than the cam card indicated. The original Ultradyne masters are based on a small block Chevy core size with a different base circle. Apparently someone neglected to tell the grinder guy about it and they did not make adjustments to accommodate the difference with the grinding wheel. Somewhat annoying if the card says one thing and the cam is another considering since you might think they should check all custom cams before shipping.

Edit: And relates to the comments made under Roller Cam Suffix Codes on page 3 here https://www.compcams.com/lobe-catalog


.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE

Last edited by Steve C.; 03-07-2021 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 03-07-2021, 06:27 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Stan my 2001 Crower catalog states 112 LSA on the 60919. We can only presume at one time years ago some were made with 113. As indicated in post #12.

.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
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Old 03-07-2021, 09:53 PM
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We purchased our cam about 15 years ago and it is still in the 2+2. Would be interesting to see if Crower physically changed the cam events. Can someone post a cam card for a current 60919? Do they still show the grind number as 304H?
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