THE LOBBY A gathering place. Introductions, sports, showin' off your ride, birthday-anniversary-milestone, achievements, family oriented humor.

          
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 04-13-2022, 06:11 PM
bird72's Avatar
bird72 bird72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NW Montana
Posts: 2,318
Default

It falls out of the "musclecar" topic of this thread, but I learn a bit more about the Mustang Ecoboost model. You can option the high performance 2,7 with better turbo setup over base. You can get basically the GT suspension as an option. The 2.7 gives appx. 150lb weight savings over GT and a near 50/50 weight distribution at 52/48. 13.5 sec. 1/4 mile. Rated 27mpg hwy which probably means 25 real world hwy. Overall, a compromise kind of vehicle, but get one with the manual tranny and it sounds like fun that I could enjoy.

__________________
72 Bird
  #42  
Old 04-13-2022, 06:40 PM
BDH79TA's Avatar
BDH79TA BDH79TA is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 63
Default

I always find these debates humorous. Whether it's brand loyalty, body style, advertising, available options or price point, Dodge is obviously doing something right. For those that like to compare the Challenger to the Camaro or Mustang....you do understand these are completely different platforms designed for different purposes? Complaining that the Dodge doesn't handle as well as the Camaro makes about as much sense as complaining that a 1 ton truck doesn't handle as well as a Camaro. While that's an extreme comparison it's no less valid. The pony cars have almost inherently out handled the larger muscle cars from day one. I've owned plenty of versions of both and can certainly respect each for their designed attributes. It never crossed my mind to expect my 78 Malibu Landau to handle as well as my 78 WS6 T/A.

Except for perhaps some limited versions, I don't think Dodge has ever made the claim the Challenger will handle with the pony cars. The only car GM had recently that would be a fair comparison for handling is the 2004+ GTO. But for 2022????

GM has always been conservative and short on vision. For those not familiar just go check out what it took to get the 64 GTO "approved". The 2004 GTO was more along the lines of a LeMans. While the drivetrain and suspension were decent for the time, the body was a disgrace. They'll surprise you now and then, but Chevy has typically been a bland car. I think of them along the same lines as buying store brand cheap crap. Especially if we're talking about 60s-80s. Stripped down hollow shells. All current GM brands are pretty much rebadged cookie cutter crap with a bunch of electronics thrown in that you "can't live without". The only thing I can take my hat off to that GM has done in the last 20 odd years is the LSX motor. I'll give them credit for that one. It's a versatile and solid platform of an engine.

  #43  
Old 04-13-2022, 07:43 PM
jerry455 jerry455 is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: sterling hts mi
Posts: 296
Default

You probably never looked at the G8's, the CTSV's, the Chevrolet SS or some of the newer Cadillacs CT4, CT5 or CT6. There are some cool and surprisingly capable versions of these cars, like the V Sport versions with a twin turbo 3.0 V6. Yes, GM is conservative, and their advertising of performance cars is terrible, but the cars are pretty decent. The CT5 Blackwing is incredible.

  #44  
Old 04-13-2022, 08:06 PM
keith k's Avatar
keith k keith k is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 3,559
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bird72 View Post
It falls out of the "musclecar" topic of this thread, but I learn a bit more about the Mustang Ecoboost model. You can option the high performance 2,7 with better turbo setup over base. You can get basically the GT suspension as an option. The 2.7 gives appx. 150lb weight savings over GT and a near 50/50 weight distribution at 52/48. 13.5 sec. 1/4 mile. Rated 27mpg hwy which probably means 25 real world hwy. Overall, a compromise kind of vehicle, but get one with the manual tranny and it sounds like fun that I could enjoy.
The Mustang Ecoboost engine you're referring to is a 2.3L inline 4 ... available in base and a higher performance version derived from the Focus RS.

The 2.7L Ecoboost is in the F150 - that's a V6. Not available in the Mustang.

__________________
keith k
70 Trans Am RA III / T400 / Lucerne Blue / Bright Blue
70 Trans Am RA III / M20 / Lucerne Blue / Sandalwood
70 Formula RA III / M21 / Lucerne Blue / Bright Blue
  #45  
Old 04-13-2022, 08:19 PM
BDH79TA's Avatar
BDH79TA BDH79TA is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Springfield MO
Posts: 63
Default

I had actually forgotten about the G8. I'll agree it was a competent vehicle. Especially the GXP. The Chevy SS only confirms how bland of a car that Chevy is capable of putting out. It looked like every other car on the lot. And once more, where are those cars for 2022? Poor management and marketing decisions killed them both. The Dodge offerings prove there's a strong market for the mid sized "muscle cars". Price point on those Cadillacs you mentioned? I'm sure it's a heck of a lot more than you'll pay for the Dodge. I also don't associate the Cadillac with a muscle car. Sport coupe or sedan maybe. That opens up into an entirely different sector that to me would include BMW, Mercedes, etc. Don't get me wrong. I've never owned a Dodge. Primarily Pontiacs and a couple of Chevys. But if I were to buy a new car in 2022 it wouldn't be from GM.

  #46  
Old 04-13-2022, 08:26 PM
bird72's Avatar
bird72 bird72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NW Montana
Posts: 2,318
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by keith k View Post
The Mustang Ecoboost engine you're referring to is a 2.3L inline 4 ... available in base and a higher performance version derived from the Focus RS.

The 2.7L Ecoboost is in the F150 - that's a V6. Not available in the Mustang.
Yes, my bad, I meant 2.3 Mustang version. I have 2.7 imprinted in my brain from having the F150..... duh..........

__________________
72 Bird
  #47  
Old 04-13-2022, 08:43 PM
71GP76TA's Avatar
71GP76TA 71GP76TA is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: rural California
Posts: 1,816
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Champ View Post
I dispute your contention of needing to have access to track day rental or autocross events vs straight line action. I can get to an autocross event or track day just as easily as a drag strip.

If you're talking about on the street, I still disagree. Stoplight to stoplight doesn't happen in normal city traffic. Driving on 2 lane roads and actually enjoying taking corners 10 - 20 MPH faster than most is easily accomplished. I do it frequently.

Saying that the Challenger handles "exceptionally well" nearly made me laugh until you qualified it with "given it's weight and dated chassis".

My '49 Cadillac Limo handles exceptionally well too, given it's weight and dated chassis - but I don't try and compare it to a Camaro.
My '21 Wide Body Challenger handles better than my '14 Camaro SS did. The Challenger weighs about 300lbs more than the Camaro. The Wide Body has a 305mm tire as opposed to the standard narrow body 245mm tire. The wide body also has a handling package which includes 6 piston Brembo brakes. The car is well balanced and handles like a 4200lb go kart.

You could not pay me enough to own an electronic nightmare.... I mean Cadillac.. Late model Cadillacs are grossly overpriced and have a cheap plasticky feel..... 4 door old man car...Not impressed......

__________________
Current Pontiacs -

1973 Formula SD455 - #'s auto orig paint
1972 Trans Am - 4 speed orig paint
1974 Formula 400 - Ram Air automatic
1966 2+2 convertible - 421 4bbl automatic
1967 Grand Prix - 4 speed orig paint
1967 GTO - 4 speed orig paint 35k orig miles

Last edited by 71GP76TA; 04-13-2022 at 09:11 PM.
  #48  
Old 04-13-2022, 09:22 PM
71GP76TA's Avatar
71GP76TA 71GP76TA is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: rural California
Posts: 1,816
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bird72 View Post
It falls out of the "musclecar" topic of this thread, but I learn a bit more about the Mustang Ecoboost model. You can option the high performance 2,7 with better turbo setup over base. You can get basically the GT suspension as an option. The 2.7 gives appx. 150lb weight savings over GT and a near 50/50 weight distribution at 52/48. 13.5 sec. 1/4 mile. Rated 27mpg hwy which probably means 25 real world hwy. Overall, a compromise kind of vehicle, but get one with the manual tranny and it sounds like fun that I could enjoy.
I have a '16 on my lot. Not impressed. Feels and sounds like a 4 cylinder... Like it had its balls chopped off or something

__________________
Current Pontiacs -

1973 Formula SD455 - #'s auto orig paint
1972 Trans Am - 4 speed orig paint
1974 Formula 400 - Ram Air automatic
1966 2+2 convertible - 421 4bbl automatic
1967 Grand Prix - 4 speed orig paint
1967 GTO - 4 speed orig paint 35k orig miles
  #49  
Old 04-14-2022, 06:43 AM
The Champ's Avatar
The Champ The Champ is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Rochester, MN
Posts: 2,534
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 71GP76TA View Post
You could not pay me enough to own an electronic nightmare.... I mean Cadillac..
fact or fiction?



Long term reliability shows your Mopar products far below that of Cadilllac.

  #50  
Old 04-14-2022, 06:48 AM
The Champ's Avatar
The Champ The Champ is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Rochester, MN
Posts: 2,534
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
Much like the magazine road tests, the "drag racers", seem to lean toward the brute HP of the Mopars, while the "Cars and Coffee crowd", appreciate the more precise handling and the intricate precision of the Ford 4-cam engine.
I think of the "Cars and Coffee crowd" as those with the cars that aren't so fun to drive on the backroads.

The more precise handling vehicles are for people who actually enjoy driving the cars, not sitting at a C&C event.

  #51  
Old 04-14-2022, 07:37 AM
The Champ's Avatar
The Champ The Champ is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Rochester, MN
Posts: 2,534
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDH79TA View Post
For those that like to compare the Challenger to the Camaro or Mustang....you do understand these are completely different platforms designed for different purposes? Complaining that the Dodge doesn't handle as well as the Camaro makes about as much sense as complaining that a 1 ton truck doesn't handle as well as a Camaro.
If you go back to the original post, it was comparing the Challenger, Camaro, Corvette and Mustang sales.

The Challenger leads sales because it is a larger, more family friendly car. If it's more important to you to have people access the back seat, you buy the Challenger.

For those that enjoy a driving a big HP car that handles really well, the Challenger is your last choice.

  #52  
Old 04-14-2022, 07:51 AM
The Champ's Avatar
The Champ The Champ is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Rochester, MN
Posts: 2,534
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 71GP76TA View Post
My '21 Wide Body Challenger handles better than my '14 Camaro SS did. The Challenger weighs about 300lbs more than the Camaro. .
Really?

Quote:
2020 Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat Widebody Specs & Features
Dimensions
Curb weight 4,470 lbs.
Quote:
Curb Weight (lb. / kg): 3853 – ZL1 coupe manual 3883 – ZL1 coupe automatic
Looks to be about 600 pounds.

You do realize that the current Camaro is on a different platform than the 14, don't you? Compare the handling of a current ZL1 to your 21 widebody and get back to me.

  #53  
Old 04-14-2022, 07:58 AM
tigergto's Avatar
tigergto tigergto is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 437
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Champ View Post
fact or fiction?
.
From my personal experience,”fact”. But that doesn’t mean much, when we’re speaking of hundreds of thousands.

  #54  
Old 04-14-2022, 09:05 AM
HoovDaddy's Avatar
HoovDaddy HoovDaddy is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Michigan
Posts: 271
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
Your thoughts and observations?
How 'bout 1st quarter sales 2022? This was published 4/5/22 by StellPower online news site. https://www.stellpower.com/news-2022...2022-q1-sales/

"Sales numbers are in for the first three months of 2022 and as has been the case in each of the past few years, the Ford Mustang was the bestselling two-door performance car sold in the USA. The Mustang narrowly outsold the Dodge Challenger while both vehicle stomped the Chevrolet Camaro, which continues to post new historic low sales numbers."

"Ford sold a total of 13,986 examples of the Mustang through the first three months of 2022, with the strongest month coming in January, where the Motor Company sent 5,671 new pony cars out into the world. While that total figure allowed the Mustang to lead the segment to start 2022, this marks the first time that Ford has sold less than 14,000 Mustangs in Q1 during the 11-year span in which I’ve been keeping track of American performance car sales.

In past first quarters, Ford has sold 17,274 Mustangs in 2021, 18,069 in 2020 and 16,917 in 2019, so the first three months of this year have not been good, but they certainly could have been worse.

For those wondering, these numbers do not include the Mustang Mach E SUV, which sold 2,363 units – down 10% from 2022.

Challenger Claims Second
The Dodge Challenger also had a pretty shaky quarter to start 2022 with just 11,124 units sold. That is the lowest Challenger sales total for Q1 since 2014, so in other words, this is the worst start to a year since the modern version of the car was introduced for the 2015 model year.

Camaro Continues to Slide
In the first quarter of 2022, Chevrolet sold just 6,710 Camaros. That is the worst Q1 for the Camaro in my 11 years of covering the segment and the fourth-worst overall. After selling just 21,893 Camaros in 2021 – the worst total in the history of the nameplate dating back to the 1960s – it comes as little surprise that sales of the bowtie-clad muscle car continue to slide downward. As bad as 2021 was for the Camaro, 2022 is looking even worse, starting the year off down more than 300 units from last year."

__________________
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=585876&stc=1&d=1646964  761[SIGPIC]
  #55  
Old 04-14-2022, 12:40 PM
71GP76TA's Avatar
71GP76TA 71GP76TA is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: rural California
Posts: 1,816
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Champ View Post
fact or fiction?



Long term reliability shows your Mopar products far below that of Cadilllac.
Last 2 Cadillacs I had were junk.. a '11 CTS coupe and a '13 CTS sedan. The '11 had 90,000 miles and the '13 had 110,000 miles. Both cars were plagued with broken trim.... switches and electronic gremlins. Neither were my personal cars as I bought them wholesale to resell on my car lot. I was amazed at how neither car held up to average use. I had to put a timing chain in the '13 as it kept popping a cam/crank code.

Years ago I had an '09 Challenger R/T as a personal car. I purchased the car wholesale with 25,000 miles. I put another 45,000 trouble free miles on it.

__________________
Current Pontiacs -

1973 Formula SD455 - #'s auto orig paint
1972 Trans Am - 4 speed orig paint
1974 Formula 400 - Ram Air automatic
1966 2+2 convertible - 421 4bbl automatic
1967 Grand Prix - 4 speed orig paint
1967 GTO - 4 speed orig paint 35k orig miles
  #56  
Old 04-14-2022, 01:08 PM
71GP76TA's Avatar
71GP76TA 71GP76TA is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: rural California
Posts: 1,816
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Champ View Post
Really?





Looks to be about 600 pounds.

You do realize that the current Camaro is on a different platform than the 14, don't you? Compare the handling of a current ZL1 to your 21 widebody and get back to me.
2021 Scat pack wide body (Is what we are talking about) weighs 4383.. about 100lbs more than the non-wide body. 2014 Camaro 2SS weighs 3935. 448lbs difference. The '09 R/T I owned years ago weighed right at 4,000 lbs on the scale at the track.

The '14 Camaro handling did improve after I lowered it by changing the springs... struts and installing new wheels/tires. So did the '09 Challenger R/T I used to own after I did the same thing.

I also had a '13 Camaro SS ZL-1 clone for a while that was an automatic. Had a few C-5 and C6 Corvettes as well. As of now... I currently have a '99 Porsche 911 Carrera. I burned out on all those pretty quick and put them on the lot... which is where the Porsche is right now.

My old '09 Challenger R/T drove and rode better than the '14 Camaro. It was more comfortable on long trips. The Camaro was a stick and the Challenger an automatic. I felt kind of claustrophobic in the Camaro. The Camaro was more fun when it came to hitting the backroads. My current Challenger.. the wide body.. is a stick and is great on the back roads and long trips. The Scat Pack wide body is considered to be more of a drivers car as opposed to the Hellcat.

If I was more concerned about handling and prestige than raw power and muscle car feel... I would be more inclined to buy an M5 BMW than a Cadillac..

My comment regarding handling is real world experience between 2 cars I actually owned. Have you owned both? If not.... Please go on enjoying your country club old man car.

__________________
Current Pontiacs -

1973 Formula SD455 - #'s auto orig paint
1972 Trans Am - 4 speed orig paint
1974 Formula 400 - Ram Air automatic
1966 2+2 convertible - 421 4bbl automatic
1967 Grand Prix - 4 speed orig paint
1967 GTO - 4 speed orig paint 35k orig miles
  #57  
Old 04-14-2022, 01:11 PM
tigergto's Avatar
tigergto tigergto is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 437
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 71GP76TA View Post
Last 2 Cadillacs I had were junk.. a '11 CTS coupe and a '13 CTS sedan. The '11 had 90,000 miles and the '13 had 110,000 miles. Both cars were plagued with broken trim.... switches and electronic gremlins. Neither were my personal cars as I bought them wholesale to resell on my car lot. I was amazed at how neither car held up to average use. I had to put a timing chain in the '13 as it kept popping a cam/crank code.

Years ago I had an '09 Challenger R/T as a personal car. I purchased the car wholesale with 25,000 miles. I put another 45,000 trouble free miles on it.
My CTS started having problems at about 45,000 miles. Hasn’t stopped since. Having a problem now that even the Cadillac techs can’t figure out. I left for Florida in December, parked it until I get back.

  #58  
Old 04-14-2022, 01:31 PM
RocktimusPryme's Avatar
RocktimusPryme RocktimusPryme is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Bedford, IN
Posts: 2,166
Default

I just think that Dodge has really been able to establish a culture of "We are the ones who actually care about fun and performance"

Plus a feel like their cars are more functional. The challenger I rented was far more roomy and easy to get in and out of than the 6th gen Camaro SS. Im sure that matters to some people.

I dont think anyone would accuse the Corvette of not caring about performance, but not everyone can afford one. Especially the c8. Even if you can are you willing to wait on one, or pay way above MSRP.

I think the Challenger historically has had more sub models too. I remember looking at all three of the pony cars in like 2013. The Mustang and Camaro both jumped you up to pretty much their max level of premium if you wanted a v8. The Camao went from like 23k v6 models to 40k just for the v8, because everyone was trim to the max. The Challenger was much more favorable to being able to get into an RT car without being the tippy top trim level.

__________________
1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs
1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455
Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports
https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports
  #59  
Old 04-14-2022, 01:39 PM
71GP76TA's Avatar
71GP76TA 71GP76TA is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: rural California
Posts: 1,816
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Champ View Post
fact or fiction?



Long term reliability shows your Mopar products far below that of Cadilllac.
I take JD Power with a grain of salt. By your account.. GM is superior to Dodge.. Right???

I have a 2018 GMC Sierra 1500 4x4 with 52,000 miles that I bought new. Only issue I had was a rattle in the dash which they fixed under warranty.

According to JD Power.. A Ram(Dodge) truck is superior to the GMC in quality.. Your postings are quite laughable..

__________________
Current Pontiacs -

1973 Formula SD455 - #'s auto orig paint
1972 Trans Am - 4 speed orig paint
1974 Formula 400 - Ram Air automatic
1966 2+2 convertible - 421 4bbl automatic
1967 Grand Prix - 4 speed orig paint
1967 GTO - 4 speed orig paint 35k orig miles
  #60  
Old 04-14-2022, 01:42 PM
71GP76TA's Avatar
71GP76TA 71GP76TA is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: rural California
Posts: 1,816
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigergto View Post
My CTS started having problems at about 45,000 miles. Hasn’t stopped since. Having a problem now that even the Cadillac techs can’t figure out. I left for Florida in December, parked it until I get back.
What is it doing?


I quit buying Cadillacs.. Too many problems that are hard to diagnose and repair.

__________________
Current Pontiacs -

1973 Formula SD455 - #'s auto orig paint
1972 Trans Am - 4 speed orig paint
1974 Formula 400 - Ram Air automatic
1966 2+2 convertible - 421 4bbl automatic
1967 Grand Prix - 4 speed orig paint
1967 GTO - 4 speed orig paint 35k orig miles
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:09 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017