#21  
Old 04-28-2022, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by napster View Post
Already answered this in another thread. Starts with post #9 as a question from another member.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=855151
Just wanted to throw out some why's and solutions for the things you brought up in that thread.

The FiTech does need a constant lead from the battery. The board isn't solid state. There's also a shut down and write to memory sequence on the FiTech. If you cut off power to the unit before the hand held zero's out it's datasets, nothing will save.

Really, I'd like to see a solid state board, or the option of an internal replaceable battery on these. Most people don't run battery cut-offs so I don't think they really thought about it.

In regards to your starting issue, that screams an IAC that was out of whack. If you have to hold the throttle open, the IAC counts were so high at cold idle that it couldn't supply the air necessary to keep the engine running. There's a couple causes here that could be relevant. Either the IAC wasn't set as part of the initial setup, or the butterflies on the throttle body may have not been set properly at the factory.

Sounds like you may have gotten one that sailed a little too fast through QC. Glad to hear you're happy with your Sniper!

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Old 04-28-2022, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Okay, I wasn't part of that thread and I've been away a couple months.

I had never heard of the Fi Tech not retaining it's learn table when the battery is disconnected, that's interesting.
Technically speaking the instructions do state it needs a constant power supply. In practice however most people find that as long as they allow the system to shut down (takes about 20 seconds) that they will retain the learn.

It's a pretty common complaint though among people that want to, or need to use a batter cutoff. Street car guys that like to run a MAIN BAT switch in the car will have a tendency to shut the car down either with that switch, or right after key off. In that situation, you'll never save the learn to the FiTech.

It kind of reminds me of the 2005 Corvette that had a shut down sequence that had to be followed. People kept draining their batteries overnight. It wasn't an actual problem with the car, but it was outside of a normal behavior for most owners, so it was removed. This is kind of the same. It's not really a problem with the FiTech, but if you're using a master battery cutoff, it's outside of expected behavior and causes an issue.

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Old 04-28-2022, 01:40 PM
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I think a shut down and write to memory sequence would drive me nuts.
Not that I have battery cut offs, but I do find myself unhooking the battery almost as a routine when ever I have to work on it. Especially when I weld on something or do anything electrical.

As far as cold starts, I found that both cars here needed tinkering in that department. Took me a while to get both cars dialed in so they would idle on their own with a bone cold start. The loaded tables in the Holley didn't work as delivered for either car.
They still don't idle at the commanded 1100 or 1200 rpm that is in the table when the temps are 60-80 degrees but they do idle. Once above 80 degrees it's fine. So summer months are not noticeable. Probably needs a bit more tweaking but I never expected them to bolt on and magically run perfect. Especially considering the vastly different applications we are using them on.

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Old 04-28-2022, 01:45 PM
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FWIW I didn't have that issue on either my Firebird or my Wife's Chevelle. Even when disconnecting the battery for work on the car.

For 98% of users, it'll be a passive experience because they aren't unhooking the battery immediately after they drive. Turn the key off and walk away. It's definitely annoying as hell for a user like Napster though.

And yes, even thought the starting guides for both the FiTech and Sniper state you shouldn't need to mess with cold start fueling, you almost always have to.

On my car I had to add about 20% fuel at cold start.

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Old 04-28-2022, 01:56 PM
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FWIW I didn't have that issue on either my Firebird or my Wife's Chevelle. Even when disconnecting the battery for work on the car.

For 98% of users, it'll be a passive experience because they aren't unhooking the battery immediately after they drive. Turn the key off and walk away. It's definitely annoying as hell for a user like Napster though.

And yes, even thought the starting guides for both the FiTech and Sniper state you shouldn't need to mess with cold start fueling, you almost always have to.

On my car I had to add about 20% fuel at cold start.
If simply disconnecting the battery hasn't been an issue than I doubt I would have noticed it. Trying to remember a procedure though is where I'd run into a road block, because I'd always forget and just pull the terminal off Then be like.....well chit!! I forgot to save..aaa

I don't even remember at this point all the tweaking I've done in the cold start tables on both cars but I've logged and tweaked for what seemed like weeks on each car. You know how that goes, you get one shot at it for the day and that's it. Then let it sit for a day or two and try again. LOL

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Old 04-28-2022, 02:29 PM
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Something else I found recently on dad's car, seems silly, but it wasn't getting full throttle.

Just because the linkage all transfers over from a holley carb to a holley sniper doesn't mean it works the same. LOL

Swore I had verified that a couple years ago when I did the Sniper install, but........I was finishing up the 4L80E install and checking TPS the other day and realized his Sniper was only showing 76% when I matted the throttle. No idea how long it had been that way as I don't drive the car often, and dad said he never noticed it. I should have left it that way as it gives me a chance to keep up

Anyway I had to modify the cable for more travel and then the bracket geometry to finally get 100% out of it. I'm not even sure how long he's been racing the car like that.

Anyway, we are keeping this thread alive with chit chat.

Lets hear from Gman..........get that thing up and running yet??

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Old 04-28-2022, 03:37 PM
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I will say one thing about FI Tech. I waited a full minute before I cutoff the battery and the System still didn't retain what it learned. I just stacked it up to a bad unit and moved on. Couldn't be happier with the Sniper. The car runs as I expected it to.

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Old 04-28-2022, 04:44 PM
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I will say one thing about FI Tech. I waited a full minute before I cutoff the battery and the System still didn't retain what it learned. I just stacked it up to a bad unit and moved on. Couldn't be happier with the Sniper. The car runs as I expected it to.
That's possible. Could have had bad memory in the board. I've heard of it happening before.

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Old 05-02-2022, 06:03 AM
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Well I finally got it running. It will start and idle for a minute and die out. I will look at it later.

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Old 05-02-2022, 10:39 AM
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Does it die all at one, or does it sputter and die?

Things to check:

Voltage at the Unit
Fuel pressure at the unit
IAC is set correctly
Vacuum leaks

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Old 05-02-2022, 10:47 AM
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Can you keep it running with the accelerator pedal? If so, try to keep it running long enough to get warmed up, as long as nothing shows to be in the danger zone. It's easier to find the right balance between the throttle plate position and the IAC counts while warm. And the learning probably doesn't kick in til 160° or so. (Not sure exactly as I don't have one of these units)

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Old 05-02-2022, 11:24 AM
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Yep, stock programming on these things is 160 engine temp before it starts learning.

You may just have to feather the throttle for a few minutes until it gets up to temp. Those base loaded fuel tables take some time to dial in, and when the base table is out of whack the cold start fueling tables don't work all that well.

Have to get it warm and drive it a while to get the base fuel table close before fooling with any of the cold start fuel tables, and you might find that once the base fuel table is dialed in the cold start tables might not need much messing with.

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Old 05-02-2022, 11:40 AM
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I don't know what Holley does with the Sniper (if anything) but FiTech units are tested and initially setup on 350 chevy engines. At least when I purchased my units they were claiming everyone sold was tested on an engine before shipping. If the Sniper units are tested before shipping, the throttle blades may be closed too much to function well with the IAC on a 462cid engine.

If you can keep the engine running while putting your foot into the throttle a bit like a carb without a choke, the IAC is the problem, 90% of the time. Just need to get it up to operating temp and adjust it per the instructions. That will typically take care of the issue.

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Old 05-02-2022, 11:53 AM
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I honestly don't know if they are ever tested on an engine or not. I didn't even know Fi Tech did that.

They do come with several base tunes to choose from and they have quite a few changes in the fuel tables between them.

I tried a couple different ones on both my 454 BBC and dads 571 Pontiac and really didn't notice much difference in how they started and ran. They both still needed quite a bit of base fuel table tuning.

Start ups got better once the IAC was dialed in though, just as you said.

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Old 05-02-2022, 12:00 PM
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One thing I noticed on the base tunes, Holley programs all of them (from what I remember) for a 13.5 target idle AFR.

What's interesting is that the 02 sensor readings of the Sniper don't match the 02 sensor readings I already monitored in both cars.

Both snipers read about .5 to .7 AFR points higher than both Innovative wide bands I have in both cars.

So basically the target idle AFR Holley programmed in was way too rich for both cars. That caused some mild idle issues and loading up at really low rpm as my wide bands were both showing the AFR was actually 12.5 to 12.8 and they didn't like idling in gear like that.

I found once warmed up, I would adjust the base table in the idle area for best vacuum (map reading) and made that my target idle AFR. Which coincidently ends up being 14.2 AFR target. My extra innovative widebands show that to actually be right around 13.5-13.6 AFR and that's where the engines are the happiest with a nice strong idle in or out of gear, which is where I had the carbs dialed in before the EFI swap...imagine that, lol.

Once that part is dialed in the cold starts get much better.

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Old 05-02-2022, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
I honestly don't know if they are ever tested on an engine or not. I didn't even know Fi Tech did that.

They do come with several base tunes to choose from and they have quite a few changes in the fuel tables between them.

I tried a couple different ones on both my 454 BBC and dads 571 Pontiac and really didn't notice much difference in how they started and ran. They both still needed quite a bit of base fuel table tuning.

Start ups got better once the IAC was dialed in though, just as you said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
One thing I noticed on the base tunes, Holley programs all of them (from what I remember) for a 13.5 target idle AFR.

What's interesting is that the 02 sensor readings of the Sniper don't match the 02 sensor readings I already monitored in both cars.

Both snipers read about .5 to .7 AFR points higher than both Innovative wide bands I have in both cars.

So basically the target idle AFR Holley programmed in was way too rich for both cars. That caused some mild idle issues and loading up at really low rpm as my wide bands were both showing the AFR was actually 12.5 to 12.8 and they didn't like idling in gear like that.

I found once warmed up, I would adjust the base table in the idle area for best vacuum (map reading) and made that my target idle AFR. Which coincidently ends up being 14.2 AFR target. My extra innovative widebands show that to actually be right around 13.5-13.6 AFR and that's where the engines are the happiest with a nice strong idle in or out of gear, which is where I had the carbs dialed in before the EFI swap...imagine that, lol.

Once that part is dialed in the cold starts get much better.
Yes at least for a good while, every FiTech unit that was sent out was run on an engine before it was either shipped direct to the customer or to the various retailers. Both my GoEFI 4 and my Wife's GoStreet had a mild fuel smell to them, indicating they'd been run.

It sounds like the Sniper's initial calibration is different than how the FiTech handles initial setup. With the FiTech, you choose a cam profile from 1-4 (mild to wild), provide your engine's displacement and number of cylinders, then provide it your ignition information if it's a model that can control timing. The software creates the base map base on that information.

Like the Holley, the FiTech also likes to command 13.6 afr at idle on it's base tune.

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  #37  
Old 05-02-2022, 04:11 PM
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That sounds similar to Holley, you have to pick a hand full of parameters on initial setup.


That 13.6 idle AFR is just fine to start with, as long as the Fi Tech wideband is accurate.

I've found that what ever sensor Holley is using seems to be fudged on the high side (reading higher than it should)

Would be one hell of a coincidence to have 2 snipers on 2 different cars showing the same high AFR readings when both are compared to an Innovative wide band, on the same bank.

I've used those Innovative widebands on both cars for years with carbs, and have done all my WOT tuning with them, and believe them to be accurate. The engines liking the idle AFR in the 13.5 range is also accurate just based off tuning I've done on engines with camshafts and lots of overlap. When you lean things out further than that idle quality starts to suffer as reversion really starts to affect things, along with this really crappy ethanol blend fuel. So I don't believe they are actually idling at a 14.2 AFR like the Holley unit says, it's more likely the 13.5 AFR my other wideband says.

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Old 05-02-2022, 04:16 PM
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With my FAST tbi a good idle was attainable at 14.0-14.2. This was a verified number against an Innovate. But I have heard that generally, tbi units like to idle richer. 13.6 won't hurt anything except the fuel bill...

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Old 05-02-2022, 04:25 PM
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Makes sense since the TBI units are basically just like a carb, and everything here with a carb and a healthy camshaft likes mid 13's for idle AFR's. I just find that to be a happy spot for a strong idle.

I can certainly program them to idle leaner, or make the carbed cars idle leaner, but the vacuum signal drops a bit, and that in turn affects the power brakes when you're 5000 feet up and kind of on the edge of things.

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Old 05-02-2022, 04:27 PM
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The sensors are both unit's Achilles heel. They're all chinese made from the lowest bidder. Fortunately, there are quality sensors on the market for replacements. It just sucks that you sometimes actually have to go that route.

I know the FiTech uses a VW Jett oxygen sensor. The TPS, MAP and CTS are all GM. I would assume the Sniper is similarly setup.

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