Pontiac - Boost Turbo, supercharged, Nitrous, EFI & other Power Adders discussed here.

          
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Old 06-30-2022, 06:00 PM
JLMounce JLMounce is online now
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Default ProCharged Street Pontiac Engine

I'll try to keep this as short and to the point as possible. I'm looking for ideas, guidance and information on building a street engine around a centrifugal style supercharger, likely a ProCharger P1SC or D1SC.

The car is a 1969 Firebird. The goal is between 600-650 to the tires. This is a street car. While it may see a handful of 1/4 mile passes a year, 98% of the time it gets driven and beat on, on the street.

Reliable, comfortable, powerful is the idea here. I'd like to build my current 455 in a way that I can take advantage of about 7-8psi of boost and be a turn key, maintenance friendly, engine. It's already reliable and the car's comfort is basically where I want it, minus quieting down the exhaust a bit. I'm just missing the powerful part of the equation.

My current engine is:
+0.030 455
N Crank, factory rods with arp hardware, speed pro pistons
KRE as cast D ports, torker ii manifold toped with throttle body injection
232/238 112+4 hydraulic roller

With a nod towards keeping a sane budget, I'd like to use as much of what I have as possible to meet the goal. I know there will be recommendations for an aftermarket block. That really isn't in the budget and if it means tempering my expectations, I understand that.

I'm also doing this in stages, with the supercharger being the final pace. First stage of the build will be a 4l80E, followed by an engine refresh that will include the necessary rotating and block upgrades to handle the power. Third stage will be the supercharger and throttle body inject upgrade.

I'm targeting either a P1SC or D1SC to make the power and I'd like to keep boost to around 7-8psi. The D1 may be more realistic to make the power at the lower boost level. It would also provide some headroom later on if I desired it.

The engine will be run on pump E85 (typically closer to E70) and combined with the throttle body injection will double as the system intercooler.

Is this realistic based on my goals, does anybody see any glaring holes with the build? If possible I'd like to skip spending money on my heads or a change in cam, but realize that may be necessary. I realize the cam is probably not the best choice, so if that needs to go, I've budgeted in if needed.

Based on my research I'm going to be targeting 10:1 compression with that 7-8psi of boost added. This from my research should still be within a safety zone for use with E85. Please do check my math though

So what do you think? How would you build this engine? What should I be looking at for the block and the rotating assembly? I don't want to spin this thing to the moon, 5500-5700 where I currently shift the car is more than adequate here.

I appreciate the help and guidance!

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1969 Pontiac Firebird
  #2  
Old 07-01-2022, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLMounce View Post
I'll try to keep this as short and to the point as possible. I'm looking for ideas, guidance and information on building a street engine around a centrifugal style supercharger, likely a ProCharger P1SC or D1SC.

The car is a 1969 Firebird. The goal is between 600-650 to the tires. This is a street car. While it may see a handful of 1/4 mile passes a year, 98% of the time it gets driven and beat on, on the street.

Reliable, comfortable, powerful is the idea here. I'd like to build my current 455 in a way that I can take advantage of about 7-8psi of boost and be a turn key, maintenance friendly, engine. It's already reliable and the car's comfort is basically where I want it, minus quieting down the exhaust a bit. I'm just missing the powerful part of the equation.

My current engine is:
+0.030 455
N Crank, factory rods with arp hardware, speed pro pistons
KRE as cast D ports, torker ii manifold toped with throttle body injection
232/238 112+4 hydraulic roller

With a nod towards keeping a sane budget, I'd like to use as much of what I have as possible to meet the goal. I know there will be recommendations for an aftermarket block. That really isn't in the budget and if it means tempering my expectations, I understand that.

I'm also doing this in stages, with the supercharger being the final pace. First stage of the build will be a 4l80E, followed by an engine refresh that will include the necessary rotating and block upgrades to handle the power. Third stage will be the supercharger and throttle body inject upgrade.

I'm targeting either a P1SC or D1SC to make the power and I'd like to keep boost to around 7-8psi. The D1 may be more realistic to make the power at the lower boost level. It would also provide some headroom later on if I desired it.

The engine will be run on pump E85 (typically closer to E70) and combined with the throttle body injection will double as the system intercooler.

Is this realistic based on my goals, does anybody see any glaring holes with the build? If possible I'd like to skip spending money on my heads or a change in cam, but realize that may be necessary. I realize the cam is probably not the best choice, so if that needs to go, I've budgeted in if needed.

Based on my research I'm going to be targeting 10:1 compression with that 7-8psi of boost added. This from my research should still be within a safety zone for use with E85. Please do check my math though

So what do you think? How would you build this engine? What should I be looking at for the block and the rotating assembly? I don't want to spin this thing to the moon, 5500-5700 where I currently shift the car is more than adequate here.

I appreciate the help and guidance!
From my experience 10 to1 is a little high. 9 to 1 or less for street driving especially when using a iron head .

For the lower end at the least get forged pistons and rods with really good rod bolts .

I think you will be alright with the cam .

Should be a nice street car...

Good luck with it ...

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Old 07-01-2022, 06:55 AM
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I'd want head studs and main studs, if you don't already have them. And although I think 10:1 with aluminum heads is ok in general, I think I'd go with 9:1 on a stock block. If I could talk myself into a stock block FI build.(which I really can't)

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Old 07-01-2022, 08:33 AM
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Get a real good ring pack too, and gap them generously .

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Old 07-01-2022, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie66 View Post
From my experience 10 to1 is a little high. 9 to 1 or less for street driving especially when using a iron head .

For the lower end at the least get forged pistons and rods with really good rod bolts .

I think you will be alright with the cam .

Should be a nice street car...

Good luck with it ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott65 View Post
I'd want head studs and main studs, if you don't already have them. And although I think 10:1 with aluminum heads is ok in general, I think I'd go with 9:1 on a stock block. If I could talk myself into a stock block FI build.(which I really can't)
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Originally Posted by charlie66 View Post
Get a real good ring pack too, and gap them generously .
I do already have head studs, since I didn't originally build this engine I don't know if it has main studs. I'll add it to the list.

Charlie do you have a ring pack suggestion?

What about hard blocking and a conversion to 4 bolt main caps. I'm assuming if the block isn't pre-drilled for 4 bolt mains, I should do a splayed cap?

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  #6  
Old 07-01-2022, 10:54 AM
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Advanced profile (AP) steel top ring with a Napier second ring is what i use by Total Seal.

I never hard blocked mine but i bet it would be a good thing to do.

With a good set of main studs 2 bolts should be good with 650hp . But if you're going higher id go 4 bolt. Splayed is better then straight, either one would be fine though . I have straight ...

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Old 07-01-2022, 12:14 PM
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Great, info thanks. Is my research correct that at a boosted level I should be looking at .005 gap per bore inch? I'm assuming based on when I had the engine last opened that it'll clean up at .040. 4.191 x .005 = .021 gap?

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  #8  
Old 07-01-2022, 12:32 PM
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For 5-15 psi its bore x .0055.... 15-30 lbs it would go up to .007

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Old 07-01-2022, 01:04 PM
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If you don't mind me saying, Being you're using D ports id be shooting for 8.5 to 8.7 to 1 .

It will be much more street worthy .. If you're worried that it wont make power and be less responsive don't. It will be fine that way and more durable . I ran 8.3 to 1 with my 4 cyl and it actually was more tuneable that way ..

Just something to think about ...

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Old 07-01-2022, 03:08 PM
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Even with the aftermarket KRE D port?

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  #11  
Old 07-01-2022, 03:20 PM
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Running E85 it won't matter what compression you are, you're totally safe. Probably will dump 2 degree every 3psi to keep the head gasket alive depending on what's in there.

650whp through an auto on a Mustang Dyno losing 20% is 812hp at the crank, not safe IMO for a 2 bolt. Hell I have a 4 bolt and I would just get a IA2 for that range of safe power.

I'd look into the Torqstorm SC, get into a max 520whp (650hp) area and call it a day on a 2 bolt. 4 bolt is where I'd feel ok making 700+ at the crank on a street car that I wanted to live a long life.

Sounds fun, enjoy

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Old 07-01-2022, 03:34 PM
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I missed the "to the tires" part. You're a brave soul on a stock block...

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Old 07-01-2022, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLMounce View Post
Even with the aftermarket KRE D port?
I thought you were using a iron head , The aluminum head is fine as well. Ive had my motor from 8.3 to 1 to 10.4 to 1 and as high as 44 psi with all combos. Either one will work . The one thing i noticed was the power gain per pound of boost . The responsiveness wasn't much to notice or to really make any difference . But there are 2 aspects of it that are overlooked maybe with some. 1 is that the lower power with the lower compression can be made up by turning it up some . The second is the window of tuning is a bit wider. More forgiving in my opinion . Right now im stuck with 9.3 to 1 and i wish i stayed with 8.3 ... JMO

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Old 07-01-2022, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GOAT8U2 View Post
Running E85 it won't matter what compression you are, you're totally safe. Probably will dump 2 degree every 3psi to keep the head gasket alive depending on what's in there.

650whp through an auto on a Mustang Dyno losing 20% is 812hp at the crank, not safe IMO for a 2 bolt. Hell I have a 4 bolt and I would just get a IA2 for that range of safe power.
I'd look into the Torqstorm SC, get into a max 520whp (650hp) area and call it a day on a 2 bolt. 4 bolt is where I'd feel ok making 700+ at the crank on a street car that I wanted to live a long life.

Sounds fun, enjoy
This has crossed my mind.

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  #15  
Old 07-03-2022, 02:48 PM
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Since Luhn Performance made 862 hp at 5300 rpm with a 462 2 BOLT MAIN BLOCK, 13 psi
of boost pressure, all you have to do is turn up the boost a bit more and forget about the high RPM stuff. The block was fine. Basic 850 cfm OLD Holley Blow Thru Carb.

Tom V.

As Charlie66 posted, keep the rpm down and turn up the boost a bit and you will have plenty of power.
The engine was at 8.75 CR on race gas, not E-85. It was dynoed at Steve Morris shop, not some shade tree deal.
It was supercharged with a basic "T-Trim" Vortech Supercharger. Vortec said that was the highest HP they had ever
generated with their "T-trim" supercharger.

Tom V.

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Old 07-04-2022, 12:11 AM
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I just saw on Butler’s site that they are offering Procharger setups soon.

https://butlerperformance.com/c-1459...rger-kits.html

Look pretty nice from what I see…

  #17  
Old 07-04-2022, 10:42 AM
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I saw that the other day as well. Definitely another option.

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Old 07-15-2022, 11:26 AM
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Did you see TorqStorm has a supercharger kit and Butler sells it. They will make more than 700hp in fact one has supported over 900hp. Much better budgeted product with a lifetime warranty!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Old 07-15-2022, 12:34 PM
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The head units are around the same pricing. The SuperChargers online bracket and head unit is in the same pricing ballpark as the torqstorm.

I have seen that Butler made 718 on engine with the torqstorm. What I've seen real-world in the firebirds I know of is that they make about 520 to the tire and the blower is out of steam with a flat power curve by about 4500-5000rpm depending on the head and cam combination.

I'm kind of at a standstill on this. 2x4 4L80e rebuildable cores are apparently non-existent right now.

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Old 07-15-2022, 04:02 PM
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My question would be: What are you going to do with this supercharged engine combination?

Tom V.

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