[eaglesan13]

I found that car for Keith so I've seen it in person and still have a bunch of pictures (which I just looked at). I was surprised at the time to see a Norwood car with an evap sysptem. The pictures show the evap canister is still in place and the rubber evap hose can be seen coming from under the master cylinder area and running alongside the forward lamp harness on the inside of the drivers fender well. Also, the metal evap line that runs along the bottom of the radiator support is still in place. I didn't snap any pictures of the underside at the time because the car was in some weeds in "snake country". My opinion is that this car was in original condition and I don't think the evap was added. FYI, I used to have a California smog license and it was not required to add California emissions systems to 49 state cars. We could certify the vehicle "as equiped" from the manufacturer so there would have been no reason to add the evap system.

Keith, let me know if you want me to post the pictures.

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

Keith I bet that Norwood with calif emmisions was a car someone brought with them in a move to california and in order to get it through inspection out there they had to add the california emmission set up from the 1970 model year..??I am concerned that if that is what happened, the clips will be a mismatch of clips. Here is why.. The calif. models have one additional line on the drivers side(the EVAP line) and that required different sized clips than the single brake line on teh Norwood cars.I guess the PPassenger side should be correct as both models have the gas/return lines on that side..But yes I would be interetsed in hearing what that car has.. all you need to do is remove the mounting bolt and check out the protected area under the head. I have seen two shades of green and blue on teh smae cars so don't think that green is green, I have seen a dark mud army green and a light almost sea green color..

[RAIVJUMB]

My 71 is an early auto car that although partially disassembled is an original car. There are several odd things with the car. I got the car from Poncho Mike who is on here all the time, one of the odd things is that the car has a M/T emissions decal and it is definately the original decal and the orig. rad support. There are some other wierd things with the car, mike has mentioned the car before and he could probably chime in more on what he knows about it. Mark

[cdoggy81]

Come on down to FL! I've got 3 un-restored 70's you can look at. Take the kids to Disney when done, it's only 35 min away

[70RAlll]

Keith -my comments on how the EVAP ended up on a Norwood car was just my "off the head" thoughts. Nothing else would make sense.I hear the poster that said they could be certified as they came, but why else would a Norwood car have that system. And it wouldn't take much, not at all to take one to the dealer and have it added, just the Hard EVAP lines, the seperator and the cannister with the rubber hoses.Or could the car had been shipped to somewhere in Canada that had similar emmis. regulations?? ANyway, as we all apparently have seen, yes there was a procedure to be followed assembling these cars, but that was not always followed. This is why I always get a kick when I see a guy trying to find that alternator(or other part) that is dated within 6 weeks or so of his build date of the car. Please, with all the miss matched stuff I have seen... GM was lucky to get the correct model year parts on these cars much less be so efficient that all the parts were made and assembled with in 6-8 weeks..Yes I have seen many like that where everything lines up nicely, but it is entirely possible, and probable,that cars had parts with in a 2 week to 6-7 months build date on them...Well I got off topic a bit with my ranting ...sorry guys.....

And the poster in FL, I will PM you shortly.. Orlando is an easy trip for me..

[Dens71TA]

I don't see why Norwood couldn't produce a California emissions Firebirds. It seems that '70-71 cars ordered on the west coast were always favored to the Van Nuys, CA factory but if production capacity was maxed out maybe some orders got transfered to Norwood, OH. Judging by sequence numbers and build dates, the production capacity of Van Nuys was about one-third to half that of Norwood.

When Van Nuys started up F-body production again in 1978 it seems like there is no rhyme or reason where the cars came from. My dad's '78 T/A, my old '81 T/A, and my '84 T/A were all ordered from dealers in Wisconsin and produced at the Van Nuys,CA plant.

[eaglesan13]

I once had a 67 GTO which was a California HO car, (WV block with air injection) that was built in the Pontiac plant and delivered to a dealer in Annapolis Maryland.

[eaglesan13]

I think they had different gas tanks also.

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

And it wouldn't take much, not at all to take one to the dealer and have it added, just the Hard EVAP lines, the seperator and the cannister with the rubber hoses.

[Formulabruce]

think the 70 had a different air cleaner as well as it relates to the breather tube from carb. starting in 67 the chevys had a mandated "closed vent" system ( no breathers on the valve covers to open air) in Calif. There must be some engine changes as well to pontiacs for Calif. I bet the list is a bit longer than we think to just make a calif car in Norwood. Just my 2 cents

[70RAlll]

Besdies the EVAP system, the california cars have a different gas tank, a small bit different body(clips placed in different places) and they did not have the red primer underneath as well as a different tire jack and differently calibrated Quadrajets. I am not sure, but bet thet in 1978 all the cars were fitted with similar emmissions systems therefore calif. vs norwood probably wouldn't make much difference. I have seen Calif. Cars delievered to Oklahoma with out the different carb, gas tank and evap system but the body differences and the bottom side primer was the same. So Van Nuys provided cars for some,if not all, western states and did so without the calif. emmissions equiptment. I just can not understand why Norwood would even have the equiptment to make calif. emissions cars unless some of the canadian export cars had to have similar systems..

[eaglesan13]

70RAIII,

The 67 GTO I mentioned it was built in the Pontiac plant but built with California emissions. It was then delivered to Annapolis. It had black license plates which indicate it was first titled in California. I always figured that the car was ordered in California by someone who was going to the Naval Academy and that the car was shipped to a dealer in Annapolis for delivery. That might explain why it had California emissions and why it was built in Pontiac rather than Fremont. Maybe the Norwood built Firebird was ordered in California but delivered somewhere closer to the Norwood plant. Just a guess.

Chris

[70RAlll]

could very well be... Keith needs to get a PHS on that car.. that woudl settle it for good.. he would know the mystery.. Then again,nevermind........

[keith k]

Originally Posted by eaglesan13

I found that car for Keith so I've seen it in person and still have a bunch of pictures (which I just looked at). I was surprised at the time to see a Norwood car with an evap sysptem. The pictures show the evap canister is still in place and the rubber evap hose can be seen coming from under the master cylinder area and running alongside the forward lamp harness on the inside of the drivers fender well. Also, the metal evap line that runs along the bottom of the radiator support is still in place. I didn't snap any pictures of the underside at the time because the car was in some weeds in "snake country". My opinion is that this car was in original condition and I don't think the evap was added. FYI, I used to have a California smog license and it was not required to add California emissions systems to 49 state cars. We could certify the vehicle "as equiped" from the manufacturer so there would have been no reason to add the evap system.

Keith, let me know if you want me to post the pictures.

Chris, no need, but thanks. All it would show is that it looks exactly like a factory job, right down to the unique clips on the driver side that hold both the rear brake hard line and the evap line.

If the general membership of the forum would really like to know if Norwood shipped cars to CA in 1970, we can take up a collection and I'll send in for the PHS

[keith k]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

Keith, yes you are correct on there not being any rhyme or reason sometimes. Point. I flew to Calgary last month to inspect a totally correct original 18,000 mile(lowest original mile known) 1970 RamAir IV car. The rear sway bar was the tiney little 5/8 one and the front sway bar was the 7/8"(didn't measure this one but it was obviously smaller with the wrong brackets) one with the smaller brackets with out the correct TA only front sway bar bracket allen head bolts. Both are base cars sizes not the larger ones that TA's recieved.This car was built right after the strike and apparently they just used the parts they had at the Norwood Plant. It even had the GTO's letter coded RamAir IV engine,not the TA's code.The hood stripe was mis alligned, the Trans Am call out on the drivers fender wasn't level , the endura nosa was a different shade white and so on ..But the interior was spot on almost still smelled new as did teh trunk.The spare still had orange grease pen markings on it.. Just amazing the shoddy workmanship seen back then compared to how we all try to restore these cars. But yes, often we see glaring inconsistencies in correct original cars.But I have seen enough originals(and disassembled enough) that there are many items that are consistent and enough that it is obvious what was supposed to be and what was just shoddy craftmanship..I am taking my time and making sure it is correct as can be.. We have all seen books with stupid mistakes and that isn't going to be mine..

Bill, that is cool that you got to see an original low mileage RA IV car. Just to comment on a couple of your points:
1) The front and especially rear stabilizer bars on the '70 T/As were more often than not (from my experience) the smaller Formula parts, so that car was not unusual. This has been discussed on here in the past if you do a search. My previous '70 T/A had both Formula bars (1-1/8 front, 5/8 rear), the one I have now has the 5/8 bar in the rear and the "correct" 1-1/4 bar in the front. The rear bars in particular are so often the smaller one that I'm sure there was something other than just an assembly line misbuild at play (supplier shortage, engineering issue, etc.). You don't see this happen much on '71s -- they all seem to have the correct bigger bars.
2) I've always been under the impression that ALL the '70 RA IV T/As had the same letter code engines as the RA IV GTOs (just as the RA IIIs did)....???

[blue71ta]

Originally Posted by Formulabruce

think the 70 had a different air cleaner as well as it relates to the breather tube from carb. starting in 67 the chevys had a mandated "closed vent" system ( no breathers on the valve covers to open air) in Calif. There must be some engine changes as well to pontiacs for Calif. I bet the list is a bit longer than we think to just make a calif car in Norwood. Just my 2 cents

I think all '70 T/A air cleaners had the vent hole in the air cleaner for the California style Q-jet, but the 49 state cars had a rubber plug in this hole when not used.

[70RAlll]

Keith- This was the 1st 1970 Trans AM that I have seen that had the smaller bars. The front bar was under an inch-didn't measure it but it had the smaller brackets with out the allen headed bolts.And the rear ,man it could have been under 5/8 it really looked strange under there.The bushings dwarfed the bar.. And yes it was neat seeing this guys cars.He had a 8,000 mile all original 1967 427/435hp Vette,blue with white.. Unbelievable how fresh the white interior was.. yes that was a neat trip...

[keith k]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

Keith- This was the 1st 1970 Trans AM that I have seen that had the smaller bars. The front bar was under an inch-didn't measure it but it had the smaller brackets with out the allen headed bolts.And the rear ,man it could have been under 5/8 it really looked strange under there.The bushings dwarfed the bar.. .

Bill, even the 1-1/8 Formula bars had the smaller brackets. But if it was less than an inch, it must have been a base Firebird bar. I think they were 7/8" in front. Yeah, the 5/8" rear bars do look very skinny.

We've had a couple discussions on '70 T/A stabilizer bar sizes in past threads. Seemed to be a crap shoot, but definitely plenty of instances of small bars on '70 models. Check out these two threads:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...light=sway+bar

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...light=sway+bar

[eaglesan13]

Bill,

Most people say the sway bars were natural metal color; however, mine appear to have been black (they are the big bars). Any opinion on this?

Chris

[70RAlll]

Chris- I have heard the natural color myself, but what I have observed is they were painted black,just like yours. Same thing with the steering suspension(tie rod ends,center link,pitman arm ) were also painted black except in the california models.It appears that the calif. models steering were black phosphate. All cars seem to have the idler arm black phosphate with a silver cad nut.All of the steering cotter pins were copper plated and everywhere the steering suspension has a nut and/or a cotter pin you will find assembly inspection paint marks. pea green in color and the drivers side inner tie rod also has a yellow dab.. this is the type of stuff my book will cover.I am sure there will be posters who will disagree with me, but this is what I have observed.The 18k mile RA IV had this as well..So I would use the black in a restoration. PM me if you need the paint codes for teh correct lacquer black and the pea green color..

[Dens71TA]

Originally Posted by 70RAlll

Chris- I have heard the natural color myself, but what I have observed is they were painted black,just like yours. Same thing with the steering suspension(tie rod ends,center link,pitman arm ) were also painted black except in the california models.

Is this also the case for 1971? My Norword 09B '71 T/A had the front suspension overgreased and after 30 years everything was covered in a layer of protective grease. When I cleaned everything up most the the paint marks were still intact and everything appeared to be bare metal originally. The drag link has a blueish gray finish from the heat treating, while everything else look more of an as cast finish. The steering box was bare metal with a yellow paint mark. There was a red paint mark on the pitman arm. I believe the spindles had green, yellow, and white paint marks. The upper control arms had white paint marks at the pivot shaft. I took pictures of everything so I could duplicate them but seemed to have lost them after the restoration .....

I still have the subframe off my recently departed 74,000 mile '71 T/A but its very rusty and I don't know think there is much left of the original finishes. There is some grease on the spindles and tie rods that may have protected something.

[70RAlll]

yes it is. my july 15th 1971 built HO had black components(a norwood car) except for the idler arm..But yes, I have heard from some that cast iron color is the way to go.It just isn't what I have found in disassembling junkers in my research for this book. Could I be wrong?? maybe, but for the ones I actually had my hands on, this is true.If you are using the article from the June(or July) issue of High Performance Pontic where they showed the restoration of that 1970 RamAir IV, I would be careful.That article,and car as a matter of fact ,has so many mistakes on the finishes page.. Many...Many...