[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Stuart

The auto shutoff is for reducing emissions as well as for economy. This article helps explain, in city driving with lots of stoplights it can improve your mileage: https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...save-fuel.html

As for the skirts on the Leaf, the owner must be a hypermiler; they like making modifications to their cars to get as much mileage as they can. It really isn't all that different than people who try to improve the performance of their cars...they have different end goals but both groups do things that may or may not help that much. The enjoyment is in trying things out to see what works.

Those savings will be eaten up when your starter goes out from all the extra use, especially in stop & go traffic I deal with.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Ok, yesterday at my part time retirement gig, I went to one of the area hospitals to pick up donated blood from a Mayo Clinic blood drive and transport it to one of the Mayo labs for processing.

While exiting that hospital, I saw this:



A Nissan Leaf. But not a "normal" Nissan Leaf. Notice the rear fender skirts added for aerodynamic improvement of it's range.

When I first saw it, my mind flashed back to when I lived in Germany nearly 50 years ago, and the Citroen:



I thought the Citroen was ugly then and the regular Nissan Leaf is almost as ugly. But putting those fender skirts on only made it look worse.

And I seriously doubt that they really extend the range enough (or at all) to justify the time and expense to have them fabricated. And they didn't even paint them to match, so they stick out like a sore thumb.

Looks are the least of their problems.
Wait until they need repairs, and specialist to repair them aren’t common.
I went and looked at the new electric mustang as a friend worked at the Ford dealer.
They still don’t have the equipment or the technicians to repair if you need warranty work.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

These start/stop systems have been out long enough that I am seeing ALLOT of battery replacement now in my shop. Especially GM cars with the Ecotech 4-cyl. They use two batteries, a smaller one in the trunk for the power electronics and the larger one under the hood on top of the main computer. (brilliant) They are generally sold in a pair now and that can be required to maintain a warranty as they both fail more or less together every 3-4 years max at around $400-450.00 retail for the battery pair from a reliable brand. So with a regular battery costing $150.00 retail maximum, you have to save another $300.00 in gas before you break even every 3-4 years.

I have had "Stop/Start" on the last 3 EcoBoost lease vehicles I have driven.
In 9 years, I have never had a Battery Replacement required because I never
drive the vehicles beyond the 3 year lease.

The Battery finally did crap out on my wife's 2013 Ecoboost Escape but after
that many years, I am not complaining.

As far as the aero goes on the vehicles with rear "skirts" I never saw any improvements in the wind tunnel at street car city speeds.

Tom V.

[salem1912]

Charge stations.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

Those savings will be eaten up when your starter goes out from all the extra use, especially in stop & go traffic I deal with.

The starters are designed to handle the additional use, they aren't the starters of old.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Stuart

The starters are designed to handle the additional use, they aren't the starters of old.

According to whom ?
Many of these electrical components are manufactured in China.
Chrysler minivans aren’t even making it to 100k.

[einstein]

Originally Posted by PontiJunk

It feels like car makers will go to any length to improved an efficiency number on paper. I can't imagine the extra expense and engineering to have gas powered cars shut off at a stop light to save a gallon per year (guessing and maybe guessing poorly). If I get stuck waiting for a long train to go by, I will turn it off myself.

My take was the primary reason was to meet ever-increasing Federal CAFE standards. By raising the average, they could sell more SUVs without paying penalties.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/techno...week-explains/

I frequently drive rentals, and some have an off button for this "feature", some have some tricks to perform to disable it, and some you're just stuck with.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by einstein

My take was the primary reason was to meet ever-increasing Federal CAFE standards. By raising the average, they could sell more SUVs without paying penalties.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/techno...week-explains/

I frequently drive rentals, and some have an off button for this "feature", some have some tricks to perform to disable it, and some you're just stuck with.

I think it’s dumb idea with only short term gains.
Someone mentioned strain on the battery, and you’re putting a lot more wear on the starter and on the flywheel.
Many starters along with many components are made in China, does anyone really think Chinese auto parts are better built ? I don’t.
Just imagine if the starter finally gives out when you’re stuck in traffic with a 100 cars behind you, especially if you’re in the hood of St Louis.

[hobbygto65]

If you got 170 grand you can buy a new Lucid Air, epa rated 520 miles on a charge.

[Mr Anonymous]

Which manufacturer is it... they have a good stop/start strategy of remembering which cylinder is close to TDC and when its time to go - squirt gas in there and fire that plug. No starter required.

[bird72]

Originally Posted by Mr Anonymous

Which manufacturer is it... they have a good stop/start strategy of remembering which cylinder is close to TDC and when its time to go - squirt gas in there and fire that plug. No starter required.

Inspired me to read up on it and stop / start technology. Have it in my 2019 F150 and it weirded me out at first. Don't even think about it now. I am always impressed that it instantly refires. Disable button on dash if one wants.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

I think it’s dumb idea with only short term gains.
Someone mentioned strain on the battery, and you’re putting a lot more wear on the starter and on the flywheel.
Many starters along with many components are made in China, does anyone really think Chinese auto parts are better built ? I don’t.
Just imagine if the starter finally gives out when you’re stuck in traffic with a 100 cars behind you, especially if you’re in the hood of St Louis.

In fairness, most of the start/stop systems do not use a traditional starter. Some, like GM, use essentially a giant starter/generator. We would refer to it as a giant alternator. When called on to start, it becomes a starter and turns the engine through a very large and extra strong serpentine belt. Another common system is to have a motor winding built into the flywheel area, IE Toyota, and this energizes and spins the crankshaft to start. These parts of the system have been pretty robust but very expensive if service is actually needed. The big advantage is no grinding of starter teeth during the thousands and thousands of starts at every stoplight. Tough on batteries though. The small power electronics battery in a Prius is a three year item if your real lucky. The big batteries have been very long lived.

[455dan]

TFL truck just tested the Rivian R1T on the IKE Gauntlet mountain towing test.
Had to re-charge for sure.
Without a "whole" lot of KWH battery storage, towing with trucks on anything but level ground will be a nerve wracking drive.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

In fairness, most of the start/stop systems do not use a traditional starter. Some, like GM, use essentially a giant starter/generator. We would refer to it as a giant alternator. When called on to start, it becomes a starter and turns the engine through a very large and extra strong serpentine belt. Another common system is to have a motor winding built into the flywheel area, IE Toyota, and this energizes and spins the crankshaft to start. These parts of the system have been pretty robust but very expensive if service is actually needed. The big advantage is no grinding of starter teeth during the thousands and thousands of starts at every stoplight.

Came here to say this.

K

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

In fairness, most of the start/stop systems do not use a traditional starter. Some, like GM, use essentially a giant starter/generator. We would refer to it as a giant alternator. When called on to start, it becomes a starter and turns the engine through a very large and extra strong serpentine belt. Another common system is to have a motor winding built into the flywheel area, IE Toyota, and this energizes and spins the crankshaft to start. These parts of the system have been pretty robust but very expensive if service is actually needed. The big advantage is no grinding of starter teeth during the thousands and thousands of starts at every stoplight. Tough on batteries though. The small power electronics battery in a Prius is a three year item if your real lucky. The big batteries have been very long lived.

I’m not familiar with the Toyota’s as I don’t own one but our company has Chrysler minivan and it’s not smooth when it restarts; in anything it seems slow to restart and sounded like a starter.
I’d agree the Toyota might be robust but I wouldnt bet on the Chrysler; seems the repair cost will eat the fuel saving easily and then some when the time comes.
I just don’t like a vehicle that shuts down in traffic only to restart 2 seconds later.

Originally Posted by hobbygto65

If you got 170 grand you can buy a new Lucid Air, epa rated 520 miles on a charge.

Originally Posted by 455dan

TFL truck just tested the Rivian R1T on the IKE Gauntlet mountain towing test.
Had to re-charge for sure.
Without a "whole" lot of KWH battery storage, towing with trucks on anything but level ground will be a nerve wracking drive.

LCID & RIVN are down now good time to buy into them but as far as towing I wouldn’t want a RIVN to go venture out in remote spots especially where a plug in isn’t around.
Ford is building a new plant for electric trucks but they might be putting themselves in a dangerous financial hole.

[oldblueponcho]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Doesn't have to be the Yukon or Alaska.

EV's in MN (except for city dwellers that use them for short commutes) are pretty worthless in most of the state.

Yeah. I was just going with what I know to be the extreme. Where I live now, Which is the north end of Vancouver Island, they are also pretty much useless except for around town.

[Stuart]

EVs are pretty common in Minneapolis. I don't know how far people are driving in them, but I was out and about today and saw all kinds of them on the freeway in subzero temps.

[Tom Vaught]

EVs have been out for quite a few years now.
GM was one of the first to sell one.

My next door neighbor has a solar grid system on his roof that charges his vehicle when it is parked at his house.
Makes the Ranch house look really high tech.

The guy who installed the solar grid owns a Ford Electric vehicle.

Tom V.

[mgarblik]

"I’m not familiar with the Toyota’s as I don’t own one but our company has Chrysler minivan and it’s not smooth when it restarts; in anything it seems slow to restart and sounded like a starter.
I’d agree the Toyota might be robust but I wouldnt bet on the Chrysler; seems the repair cost will eat the fuel saving easily and then some when the time comes.
I just don’t like a vehicle that shuts down in traffic only to restart 2 seconds later."

I looked up some info on the Chrysler mini-van system 2020 and newer. You are mostly correct in your assessment of what it has going on under the hood. It uses a larger, more powerful, gear reduction starter and conventional ring gear on the flexplate. What is different it it has a clutch within the starter drive. When the engine stops, the starter drive engages but does not crank. When you release the brake pedal and the engine gets the start command, the piston near TDC get a squirt of fuel and a spark, and should start without needing the starter and the drive will retract. But what if none of the pistons have enough compression to light the fuel, which is possible? Then the starter will crank and help turn the engine to the next cylinder in the firing order and start the engine and so forth. I can see this being noisier and possibly a little jerky sometimes. Leave it to Chrysler. Fortunately, there is a button to disable the entire start/stop system at any time. But each time you drive the vehicle you have to disable it. It is a normally "on" switch. I am not advocating these systems as being good or bad. They are out there and if we want to own new vehicles or work on them as in my case, we have to understand and put up with them. If gas prices go through the roof, there may be a meaningful savings. I have no idea.

[jww]

Yep, gotta get rid of the global warming we’re having outside today!