[rohrt]

just curious but where does the problem lie with the cam not degreeing right. It either has to be with timing chain sets or where the cam key is ground.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by rohrt

just curious but where does the problem lie with the cam not degreeing right. It either has to be with timing chain sets or where the cam key is ground.

Correct. It's either the keyways on the camshaft or crank that could be off a hair, and/or the keyways on the sprockets for either the camshaft or the crank that could be off slightly.

It could be more than one of them. Then you get into what is called stacked tolerances. Some of them end up being way off the mark.

Even OEM stuff was not perfect.

[tc]

This article may help, and be sure the degree wheel is not moving when rotating the engine. I'd start over with a dot to dot or zero offset setting.

https://www.camcraftcams.com/degreeing-a-cam/

[400 Lemans]

Not the Stump Phttps://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...light=faithfululler, but good install info on the Old Faithful.

[6T5 Cat]

I had the exact same problem about a year ago. I degreed the cam about four or five times and came up with different numbers each time. I have been degreeing cams for over 55 years and was about to go nuts. I finally found the problem; it was the Comp Cams crank socket. The Pontiac crank slot on the socket is too wide and allowed for up to a four degrees of movement at the degree wheel. The allen head set screw can’t be tightened enough to hold it secure on the crank, therefore there is movement at the crank socket when the engine is turned counterclockwise. I wasted another $50 bucks and bought a new crank socket, but it has the same problem. Now I have two useless tools that are basically paperweights. I wound up making a degree wheel setup using an old crank hub from a 1965 Pontiac engine. Worked like a charm.

[tc]

I made a spacer with a lip that fits into the degree wheel with an ID ( hole ) the size of the crank bolt. The degree wheel is tight against the end of the crank snout. Since you have the head off you will not need to rotate counterclockwise. Make a mark on the degree wheel and crank to verify the degree wheel is not moving.

6T5, please post a photo, I'd like to see you crank hub/degree wheel setup.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by 6T5 Cat

I had the exact same problem about a year ago. I degreed the cam about four or five times and came up with different numbers each time. I have been degreeing cams for over 55 years and was about to go nuts. I finally found the problem; it was the Comp Cams crank socket. The Pontiac crank slot on the socket is too wide and allowed for up to a four degrees of movement at the degree wheel. The allen head set screw can’t be tightened enough to hold it secure on the crank, therefore there is movement at the crank socket when the engine is turned counterclockwise. I wasted another $50 bucks and bought a new crank socket, but it has the same problem. Now I have two useless tools that are basically paperweights. I wound up making a degree wheel setup using an old crank hub from a 1965 Pontiac engine. Worked like a charm.

You can make used of one of them. I took one and sliced 3/4" off the keyed end. Then I ground 6 flats and made a big nut you can slide on your crank behind your degree wheel. Then you can tighten the crank bolt so your degree wheel does not move and reach behind the degree wheel with a big Crescent wrench and move the crank any direction you want too.

[rohrt]

The crank socket from CC has two keyways. One is wider then the other. Even with the small one there is a about a 1 deg slop in it. I stated in post 38 "Then I was wondering where my differences is coming in at. I found 1 deg of slop in the CC crankshaft socket. The pointer can be a half deg or more if not looking at it strait but the biggest margin of error is with determining the top of the intake lobe. The dial indicator appears to have about 3 deg of being right at top and thus my margin of error that I'm seeing." I'm too concerned with that. I can still do some lift @.050 measurements I think.



Stayed up pretty late reading up on Timing sets.

I could be wrong because there is no consensus but this looks to be the best timing set. Prove me wrong.
On a side note I read the CompCams timing sets come from Cloyes. Can anyone confirm this?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3612x9z

[tc]

I have never used a crank socket so I don't know how they work. The pointer needs to be very close to the degree wheel and yes, look straight on. You find intake lobe center the same way you find piston TDC, by rotating clockwise ( since you have an indicator and don't need to use the piston stop ). Start before max lift and end after max lift. Choose a indicator value, between .020-.050 and use that measurement on both sides of the lobe, writing down the degree wheel measurements... The lobe will have a dwell just like a piston does at the top, so don't read off the top of the lobe.

[Jay S]

I often put a coupe bolts in the crank flywheel flange, and turn the engine from the back to make sure the degree wheel stays in place on the front. Sometimes I help someone time a cam, when they get the comp set out I always turn the engine from the back. That or I am very careful to turn the engine the same direction, and use a dial indicator to find TDC like what was mentioned. The comp set doesn’t work very well with a piston stop if it has any slop.

You can get a Mr gasket 2* +\- key if the timing needs to move 4*. It is a 2*, but moves the timing 4. I have modified it for 3* before. They use to be a lot cheaper. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...yABEgLlH_D_BwE


On a timing chain engine the actual running ICL number will be retarded from where you set it. Especially true on a double roller set. If you are targeting 109, you’ll want to shoot for 107. The link belt chain is probably a little less. I always add 2 on the advance though unless it is a gear or belt drive.


It isn’t unusual for 3 way keys sets I have had moved the timing twice the advertise change. Just like what you set did.

[rohrt]

Here are my Choices. I have narrowed it down mostly based on on mgarblik comment here.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...2&postcount=45

[Shiny]

Originally Posted by Jay S

...
You can get a Mr gasket 2* +\- key if the timing needs to move 4*. It is a 2*, but moves the timing 4. I have modified it for 3* before. They use to be a lot cheaper. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/m...yABEgLlH_D_BwE...

Ouch... that feels either predatory or just wrong for something so simple. I am truly out of touch... and maybe I'll stay this way. $21 for a key makes $125 for a timing set feel like a gift.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by rohrt

The crank socket from CC has two keyways. One is wider then the other. Even with the small one there is a about a 1 deg slop in it. I stated in post 38 "Then I was wondering where my differences is coming in at. I found 1 deg of slop in the CC crankshaft socket. The pointer can be a half deg or more if not looking at it strait but the biggest margin of error is with determining the top of the intake lobe. The dial indicator appears to have about 3 deg of being right at top and thus my margin of error that I'm seeing." I'm too concerned with that. I can still do some lift @.050 measurements I think.



Stayed up pretty late reading up on Timing sets.

I could be wrong because there is no consensus but this looks to be the best timing set. Prove me wrong.
On a side note I read the CompCams timing sets come from Cloyes. Can anyone confirm this?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3612x9z

The other key way is for a Ford.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Adding .030" holes to spray the distributor gear and timing set is a good idea, IMHO. They stock Melling oil pump delivers over twice the oil the engine will ever need so why not use it to provide positive lubrication to those components.

I also believe, and I'm just throwing this out there that it would be a really good part to add to one of these engines if someone offered a cam chain tensioning device. All of these timing chains stretch out, especially the roller variety and once they start "flopping" around I believe that wear and stretch are greatly accellerated at that point. I say this because when I lost the Rollmaster chain in my first 455 is was fine shortly before the night it failed. In the previous months I had moved the cam 4 times to do some ICL testing and the chain didn't have all that much slop in it, maybe around 1/4 to 5/16". I made a mental note of it, but it wasn't enough slop to be alarming. Looking back on it I think it was on it's was out and had enough slop in it that it was flopping really bad on the coast side accellerating the wear process.

That's all water under the bridge at this point because I went back to a stock type 3/4" wide set with heat treated steel gears. This provided better sleep at night and I went on to worry about other things........

If someone could make us a long lasting tension device for those Morse chains it would be a great thing for the hobby.
I have some high quality cam follower bearings but they are steel. Something would have to have hard plastic or rubberized for no metal to metal contact.
Since my block was aligned bored I could not use my Morse chain.
But I have a IA2 block and I might have one of the only aftermarket block builds with a "lowly" Morse chain !

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Adding .030" holes to spray the distributor gear and timing set is a good idea, IMHO. They stock Melling oil pump delivers over twice the oil the engine will ever need so why not use it to provide positive lubrication to those components.

Is it possible or even recommended to do this on an assembled block?

A 1/16 bit snaps really easy at .0625 so I would need a 1/32 bit .03125

Then a magnet to catch the shavings.




On the TC front I purchased the Cloyes 9-3512X9 Billet True Roller Set. There are 4 choices with 9 keyway. The one I got is at the bottom of the list. Then comes heat treated crank gear, Next is the heat treated crank and cam gear and the best one has the heat treated crank/cam and the Z chain.

I wonder if I find my chain all stretched out in few years down the road can i simply toss the chain and put the Z chain on the gears?

[Tim Corcoran]

This is the timing set I use

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234831

[Joe's Garage]

[QUOTE=rohrt;6364484]Is it possible or even recommended to do this on an assembled block?

A 1/16 bit snaps really easy at .0625 so I would need a 1/32 bit .03125

Then a magnet to catch the shavings.



If you have threaded plugs, once the timing gear is out-of-the-way, remove them and gently drill them on your drill press or workbench. Clean, reinstall, done.

I'm not sure I would attempt to drill them while they were installed.....

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by Tim Corcoran

This is the timing set I use

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234831

I would love to see a battle between the IWIS chain and the Cloyes Z chain.


[QUOTE=Joe's Garage;6364646]

Originally Posted by rohrt

Is it possible or even recommended to do this on an assembled block?

A 1/16 bit snaps really easy at .0625 so I would need a 1/32 bit .03125

Then a magnet to catch the shavings.



If you have threaded plugs, once the timing gear is out-of-the-way, remove them and gently drill them on your drill press or workbench. Clean, reinstall, done.

I'm not sure I would attempt to drill them while they were installed.....

Unfortunately the block has press in plugs that are staked.

[Cliff R]

"I would love to see a battle between the IWIS chain and the Cloyes Z chain".

I've taken apart a good many 4 x 4 transfer cases in my time and have yet to see a double roller chain in one. I doubt if one would last in 4 wheel drive range on hard pavement much longer than it took me to type this.

As for drilling .030" holes in allen or soft plugs that is NOT an easy task. Here I much prefer to drill the oil gallery plug and tap for #6-32 and install a brass set screw that I've drilled with a .030" bit. Another option and pretty easy is to drill to a larger size then "peen" the hole almost closed and re-size it with a .030" drill bit in a pin vise..........

[Dragncar]

You can drill a steel plug "almost' all the way through with a 1/4" drill bit then punch the last little bit with a .030 drill. The factory 5/16" square heads are easier to drill than a 3/8" allen head plug.