[Larry Navarro]

WOW....the new HPP mag. reports a stock eliminator 400 firebird running 10.95!!
that's great considering a Q-jet, D-port heads and a hydraulic cam!
those who are not familiar should know that the rules set forth by NHRA, require that the heads have absoulutely NO port work, and considering the year model of the car running; must use the factory cast iron intake as well. the LIFT on the cam must meet factory specs. but the duration is open.
now take a moment and think about that!!
NO "E"LUMINUM
dang!...thirty years of outdated iron can sure run fast....but i guess you have to KNOW what your doing to bring it all together!!!!
HAVE FUN!!

[Larry Navarro]

WOW....the new HPP mag. reports a stock eliminator 400 firebird running 10.95!!
that's great considering a Q-jet, D-port heads and a hydraulic cam!
those who are not familiar should know that the rules set forth by NHRA, require that the heads have absoulutely NO port work, and considering the year model of the car running; must use the factory cast iron intake as well. the LIFT on the cam must meet factory specs. but the duration is open.
now take a moment and think about that!!
NO "E"LUMINUM
dang!...thirty years of outdated iron can sure run fast....but i guess you have to KNOW what your doing to bring it all together!!!!
HAVE FUN!!

[KS circutguy]

Here we go again..

[Jack Ferris]

Oh My do we have to go through this again. The same words are burning on my screen..........................................

[Goatman]

Lets see, 1967+34 years of breaking parts and countless money flushed down the toilet=10.95 ET. I bet they spent over $100,000 just to figure out that combination over all these years.

No offense to anyone, but I'd rather spend the $1800 for E-heads and $550 for a Holley carb and go fast NOW. Not after 34 years of trying. I just don't have that long to wait.

Cast iron heads are great and they have their purpose, but when you really think about it, its kind of insulting that it took this long to figure those heads out. I bet the Chevy guys were running that number ten years ago!

[71 T/A]

Goatman,
I can see your point. However, those guys have to run a Q-jet and hydraulic cam.

On the other hand, anyone can run iron heads, Holley and solid/roller and surpass that 10.95. I don't really care if someone achieves high 10s stock. It's 10s whether it's done stock or not.

[Larry Navarro]

...yeah, he we go again!... a few weeks ago people were complaining about being bored on this BB.
well here we have a 'bird running on STOCK outdated iron. i don't care how much time or how many parts were broke. the fact is that it WAS done and proves the point.
i'm sure that engine was massaged to the n'th degree but who doesn't do that with a motor that there racing and want it to last.
we should applaud the efforts of the folks that campaign this car, these guys are the ones that will attract more interest and growth to the pontiac hobby, especially when they're running times like this on STOCK iron.

[Goatman]

Let's make this clear right up front guys. I run RAIV's! I like them very much. My best time to date is 10.62 @ 128. That's in a 3500lb car, on my sixth pass EVER with that combo.

My point was that my motor cost me $5500 and my car is street legal. I'm going faster than that car, for far less money and I believe that it would be even more cost effective for me to have gone with the E-head, because I want to go faster and E-heads have more airflow potential overall, which, sooner or later, you'll need. Velocity is very important, but you still need to move a specific amount of air to achieve a certain horsepower level.

That's all I wanted to say.

[Scott Misus]

"Sneaky Pete"

[Larry Navarro]

goatman...D-PORTS....NOT RAIV's.....
"no-flow"...D-ports!!
"no-flow" cast iron intake!!!
"Q-junk" carburation!!
remember, these guys are running within rules set by NHRA to run STOCK eliminator!
sure you car runs faster but NOT within the rules of NHRA.
now, what are you using?

[This message has been edited by Larry Navarro (edited 09-23-2001).]

[455T/A]

Larry you can bet the heads are cheated to get better flow. There isn't a single stock d port 400 head that will do that kind of job without some kind of help.. NHRA doesn't check the heads against two or three bone stock heads, they just look for casting lines and casting marks that might be in the heads. If those areas look ok then it passes. Those marks are easy to keep if you know about silicone. Silicone, some port work and acid works wonders for so called stock heads. I don't care about what the rules state, it is something everyone does! That stock car wouldn't be able to drive 50 miles without having some kind of problems. The rear might burn out of it.

[Goatman]

Larry, I think you're going down with the ship.

At first, I didn't want to say that I thought those heads were probably doctored, the same as the Q-junk, intake and the rest, but everyone knows, just like NASCAR, the one who fools the techs best wins. That's all that type of racing is.

I hate to break it to you, but between that crap and bracket racing, no one out there watches Pontiacs at all. If you EVER expect to get any attention, you better be running NMCA/NSCA and you had better be FAST. The only time I've ever head of a Pontiac making it anywhere was Rodney Butlers car qualifying in the NMCA show and a few Nostalgia type cars that could compete. NONE of which were using D-ports.

D-ports and RAIV's are usefull, but won't cut such a tall order. You cannot dispute such facts.

[71 T/A]

Most of us couldn't possibly run 10s with D-ports, hydraulic cam and Q-jet. Those guys have knowledge about those parts and how to make them run that we'll never have. So, for the average racer, it's going to take round ports, Holley and at least a solid cam and mucho stall to go that fast.

We just can't afford to experiment with all the parts combos and flow numbers, etc. to achieve that. It's still a great accomplishment. But at what cost and effort?

I'm sure Goatman is way ahead of those guys, not because he ran several tenths quicker, but he spend a lot less green and time.

[Larry Navarro]

goatman...i said the rules of NHRA stock class, AND i said those parts are massaged to the N'th degree. sure there are tricks, but lets face it...were talking cast-iron and a q-jet for cryin' out loud!
i'm sure those heads haven't seen a die-grinder either in leiu of the casting line or parting line as noted in the last post.
yeah...PONTIAC popularity is NOT growing due to the NMCA or NSCA. i for one could care less about those organizations...the one who spends the most money wins.
everyone expects cars in those organizations to run fast...those are exotic pieces, and by far NOT stock and NOT street cars.
a strong pontiac following does not need those sanctioning bodies to become popular.
where have you been the past several years!
there are more pontiac events held now, than ever before!
besides that, this discussion on the NMCA and NSCA are totally irrelevant to the topic.

[hiwaystar71]

larry,what year is bird?people that think 10s is easy in stock elim are nuts.more than likly car is mid-late 70s with low comp.these guys have to know their stuff to make these cars run those tims under the rules.nhra and ihra are on top of these guys big time checking these cars.shure,you can run 10s alot of different ways but stock elim is the hard way.

------------------

[Goatman]

Booth, the car is a 68', so much for that argument.

Larry, I understand that this guy has accomplished something spectacular, yeah that's great, but what does any of that have to do with anybody on this board? Nothing.

NSCA/NMCA is THE FASTEST GROWING part of drag racing, there are magazines (yes, plural) that JUST cover those two groups. You don't care about them and that's fine, but guess what, that's contrary to public opinion. I don't see anyone making Hot Rod TV or any other "prime time" running Stock Eliminator or whatever. The trick to all of this is to get exposure and S/S type racing isn't the way. As for your comment about who spends the most money wins......welcome to drag racing...any drag racing PERIOD.

Again, I'm happy that a guy running D-ports went that fast and he didn't get caught doing anything illegal, but big deal. You're trying to use an ISOLATED ONE TIME instance to prove a point about D-ports that simply isn't true. They CAN be made to go fast, but why spend the time, money, and effort. Its much more fun to just go racing than to spend countless hours of your life at a flow bench just to prove to yourself that it can be done.

A little story I'll share with you. One of my friends has the fastest cast iron headed Buick Satge One in the country. His car hasn't recieved ANY attention from anybody, including TA Performance, who is the king of Buicks, why, because NOBODY CARES. Its not a big deal to anyone but him and the three other guys trying to catch him. What a waste of time. His car could be a full second or two faster with a set of aluminum heads and he's got just as much money in his iron heads as he would have had in the best set of aluminum heads there are. To me and everyone else, its just plain foolishness.

[This message has been edited by Goatman (edited 09-23-2001).]

[Larry Navarro]

goatman...guess what?...you, me and the rest are fools!
we spend money, effort and waste countless hours of time to do one thing...
TO GO FASTER THAN THE OTHER GUY!!
if wasting time and money is a way to have fun and satisfy a goal, then so be it.
"...then there are the stock eliminator guys who don't care about the NMCA or NSCA....."
WHATEVER...RIGHT?

[KO]

Up to $15000 to win a national event in Stock
makes it worthwhile.

[Goatman]

You can win more than that in the NMCA/NSCA. Plus you'll actually pick up sponsors if you're any good at racing. That way, we all aren't fools.

Larry, if you honestly feel that way, then why bother posting anything at all?

[Larry Navarro]

goatman...my opening post was directed in a positive manner....you chose to re-direct it into something negative.

goatman - "Lets see, 1967+34 years of breaking parts and countless money flushed down the toilet=10.95 ET. I bet they spent over $100,000 just to figure out that combination over all these years."

[This message has been edited by Larry Navarro (edited 09-24-2001).]