[70Steve]

I think I'd prefer a better quality colour photocopy of the actual PMD paperwork than a generic sheet like the Marti report above. I like the fact that I can see "my paperwork". Many years ago I received a very nice colour photocopy as well as the standard black and white photocopy in the same packet. It was for a RA Firebird though.

I also miss the factory photo for the particular model too, that was a nice extra, over time I ended up with four different ones and sent in another VIN just to get a different picture.

I want to send in the numbers for some engines I have too, just to see exactly what they came in new.
I'd like to see the PHS on certain cars just out of curiosity too, eg first 70 GTO Baltimore built, the cars before and after mine, just to mention a few.

I'd like to know the record for most requested VIN! I seem to recall a few ebay type sales where JM must just leave the sheet out for a few days, or atleast run a few photocopies off and wait. Anyone care to guess at the car and number of requests?

I think I could see myself digging through the PHS filing cabinets as a full time job...I could be the "special request searcher outerer".

[68gtoMN]

UPDATE: I just had a great conversation with Jim Mattison regarding one of my cars that led to a discussion about PHS. I really enjoyed the chat and Jim was very forthcoming about how PHS has evolved, the challenges faced by this business and how his passion for the hobby and personal sacrifice have kept it alive. Jim also provided additional information about how a given car's records are kept/researched and it shed light onto the subject (continued questions) of why can't certain searches be made easier - from an overall research perspective. Here's what I learned using one of my cars as an example:

I have a 68 GTO with a VIN indicating it to be the 110th V8 car produced in Pontiac for the 68 model year (august 9, 1967 build). I decided to inquire about how many cars preceding it might have been GTOs, if produced on the first day, other statistics...you know, just in case Jim had some insight. While potentially feasible to review all cars preceding this one to make such a determination (due to low production number), he would have to look up each VIN individually and, to find them, would need to look at invoice date.

If I understand it correctly, VINs are not locatged on the Microfiche in sequential order and each car would need to be identified by performing, essentially, a standard PHS review to determine this information. It is possible that the preceding 10 cars could have been GTOs or that none of the prior 50 were GTOs - you can't know until you look at each record individually. This is both time-consuming and expensive.

The machines Jim uses to review the microfiche are expensive and not manufactured any longer, as Eric states. Office space, copying, mailing, employee expense, etc all add up. Again, details of this are for Jim alone to divulge. HOWEVER, I steadfastly state that the cost for any PHS lookup, as charged by Jim, is a bargain in this world of collector cars. Jim continues because he believes in the cause. He does not need this business, but he loves the hobby and has fought GM to keep it alive for all of us. Perhaps I will investigate further the effort to create such a database for the business.

Anyone questioning the value of knowing the provenance of their car should have no reservations about utilizing PHS. I've seen Jim at GTOAA events for years and have spoken to him on several occasions.

Please do not hesitate to get your PHS paperwork. Support our hobby. Support those who make it possible.

[aukc]

you bet, worked with Jim a few years ago, when PHS created reproduction of window sticker for my car (probably only '95 Bonneville he's ever been asked to do) - I asked him to sign it, and he did

[Lloyd-TX]

Originally Posted by 68gtoMN

UPDATE: I just had a great conversation with Jim Mattison regarding one of my cars that led to a discussion about PHS. I really enjoyed the chat and Jim was very forthcoming about how PHS has evolved, the challenges faced by this business and how his passion for the hobby and personal sacrifice have kept it alive. Jim also provided additional information about how a given car's records are kept/researched and it shed light onto the subject (continued questions) of why can't certain searches be made easier - from an overall research perspective. Here's what I learned using one of my cars as an example:

I have a 68 GTO with a VIN indicating it to be the 110th V8 car produced in Pontiac for the 68 model year (august 9, 1967 build). I decided to inquire about how many cars preceding it might have been GTOs, if produced on the first day, other statistics...you know, just in case Jim had some insight. While potentially feasible to review all cars preceding this one to make such a determination (due to low production number), he would have to look up each VIN individually and, to find them, would need to look at invoice date.

If I understand it correctly, VINs are not locatged on the Microfiche in sequential order and each car would need to be identified by performing, essentially, a standard PHS review to determine this information. It is possible that the preceding 10 cars could have been GTOs or that none of the prior 50 were GTOs - you can't know until you look at each record individually. This is both time-consuming and expensive.

The machines Jim uses to review the microfiche are expensive and not manufactured any longer, as Eric states. Office space, copying, mailing, employee expense, etc all add up. Again, details of this are for Jim alone to divulge. HOWEVER, I steadfastly state that the cost for any PHS lookup, as charged by Jim, is a bargain in this world of collector cars. Jim continues because he believes in the cause. He does not need this business, but he loves the hobby and has fought GM to keep it alive for all of us. Perhaps I will investigate further the effort to create such a database for the business.

Anyone questioning the value of knowing the provenance of their car should have no reservations about utilizing PHS. I've seen Jim at GTOAA events for years and have spoken to him on several occasions.

Please do not hesitate to get your PHS paperwork. Support our hobby. Support those who make it possible.

VERY well put! My thoughts exactly.

Thanks for all you do for the Pontiac hobby, Jim. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

[pmdclassics]

Would be nice if the microfiche were converted to digital. I am sure it would be very labor intense and costly as well but just a thought.

[Stuart]

I've thought about how it would be nice if the information was computerized like a Marti report to provide more statistical information (how many cars came with a specific engine or color, etc.) but it would be a huge job to do so. I suppose each fiche could be scanned using optical character recognition software, but there are millions of them and each one would have to be checked for accuracy. Plus, many have hand written notes and special instructions that would have to manually entered. It would take forever and who knows how much it would cost.

[Formulabruce]

Originally Posted by pmdclassics

Would be nice if the microfiche were converted to digital. I am sure it would be very labor intense and costly as well but just a thought.

I helped a Company do some of this for some old GE "Fiche" .
The original reader blew up the "fiche" so much the resolution was not good, BUT was readable in a reader ( usually had a hood on it)
TO scan digitally, and then "blow up" keeping the aspect ratio , you would need a great scanner and a great graphics program, and time to get the scan lighting right and the contrast.
Most folks hear the word "Digital", and expect quality. NO matter how this is done, to make it big enough to read, it isnt going to be that great.
In fact Im not sure that OCR will be able to pick up the letters and numbers enough to actually search it, similar to searching a PDF.
The thought is good though.
FYI There can be 10-20 pages on a 4X6 fiche (maybe alot more depending on the optical fiche maker used)
.... each page needs to get enlarged by 400-600 %
this is why the PHS stuff, alot of it looks like a 10th generation copy.

[Held for Ransom]

Originally Posted by 68gtoMN

Here's my one, and only complaint...

GET CLEAN COPIES of these documents and stop sending the same, old, terrible photocopies along with the packets. It's really not that hard. In fact, I have properly recreated several exact reproductions of these documents for the 1968 model year and these could be produced at fractions of pennies each at a printer.

We used to get a factory photo with the packets also...

I just ordered a packet and am REALLY disappointed.

Anyone have a copy of the AMA for a '73 Firebird?

[elefantrider]

Agree on the great value of PHS for GTOs.

However, the higher rate might dissuade from running PHS on lower valued cars. Whereas I would order it automatically for all my new car acquisitions before at the lower rate.

The new rate is 1/25-1/30th the value of what I've paid for some of my cars.

[Jack Peters]

I knew what my caw was since I had the original window sticker and GMAC contract plus I personally ordered the car. I knew its history after I sold it and then bought it back again.
I still found out things I did not know. Mainly, where it went from Freemont. I have paperwork PHS doesn't. May call Jim with it. Letter to company who preped the car since it was not preped by a Pontiac dealer. More later.

[dataway]

I got my first PHS about 20 years ago ....still have it, and plan to get another, not sure why, maybe just in case something new has shown up

Anyway, price is fine to me, well worth it. I can't complain about condition, it is what it is, who knew anyone would care about this stuff 40 years later. I get a kick out of getting a printout of the original film ....the quality of which is fixed, and cannot be improved on at this point.


I find myself curious about a couple of things though. First, how did this information become the property of one person, how was it obtained. If it's still owned by GM, is it leased? Borrowed? etc.

Next would be ....what can be done to preserve this information? The film is not going to last forever, the machine that reads it will not last forever. I mean this is not just about preserving information because it's someone's business.... it's also about preserving information that is important to a lot of people, and at some point before it is lost should enter the public domain.

JohnnyB

[getmygoat]

I would suspect there are organizations with experience converting microfiche to digital format, think of all the library resources that were in microfiche - most have now been digitized.

For example, a quick google found this company:
http://www.microfacs.com/digital/mic...FQ4zhwodWCgJzA

Seems like that's the way to go... Most conversions could likely OCR and preserve the digital image - then you can search the OCR'ed version but no data is lost with the images still remaining.

Just call it phs.google.com

[Racer81x]

[QUOTE=elefantrider;4609467]Agree on the great value of PHS for GTOs.


What sucks though is when you send in for the PHS on a gto and they can't find a copy of it

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by elefantrider

Agree on the great value of PHS for GTOs.


What sucks though is when you send in for the PHS on a gto and they can't find a copy of it

Then it's a Judge!

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by dataway

I find myself curious about a couple of things though. First, how did this information become the property of one person, how was it obtained. If it's still owned by GM, is it leased? Borrowed? etc.

JohnnyB

From a previous post: I wrote up a little "Pre-history" of PHS which might answer (or allude to the answer to) your question. This was first captured in an email to author/illustrator Eric White (gtoric on this site).

I haven't reviewed this Jim Mattison or PHS; this is just my understanding based on talking to Fred Simmonds while we were driving together.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eric -

Have you or anyone ever written an article about the "pre-history" of PHS?

During our trip I asked Fred about the technique he used to find the '62 and '63 Super Duty cars; before answering my question he framed the discussion by giving me the background of how he came to find the records and learn to use them, and how Mattison came to found Pontiac Historic Services.

I was driving and couldn't write anything down but this is how I remember what he said:

Back in the middle 1980's he was "into" HO model trains but as he got older he was frustrated because he couldn't see what he was doing (apparently he has always had poor eyesight). He ended up selling all of his train stuff but found himself without a hobby. His wife suggested that he should get a car so after a brief search he found the '67 Lemans that he still has.

His initial introduction to the Pontiac records was through trying to find out information about his own car. He mentioned to one of the secretaries that he would like to know how his car was built and she said "oh, I can find that out". Sure enough, within a couple days she produced the invoice and option content (sort of a prehistoric "PHS" packet!). He asked her how she did that and she replied that the information still existed on property and that it was guarded by a financial person.

Fred later found out this financial guy was going to retire, so he began to visit with him and learn where the information was located and how it was stored. During this time (still mid 80's?) there was a lot of employee turmoil in the form of retirements and outright separations so there was a lot of stuff getting thrown out. Fred told all his friends he was interested in "right of first refusal" so anything they had that might be interesting was passed by him before being pitched. He said he would literally make a trip home every night with all kinds of photos, literature, memorabilia, hardware, trophies, paint samples, etc.

By this time they were receiving maybe a request or two a day from Pontiac enthusiasts (usually fellow employees) that had heard about this service. Between Fred or his friend they were able to fulfill these requests. Additionally, Fred would come in early and poke around, then maybe return at lunch time and finally spend some time in the records before heading home for the evening, just nosing around.

Eventually the requests got to be too much for one person to handle on a part time basis, maybe 20 or so a day. He and Jim Mattison had been friends before that and Jim had become quite familiar with the records and how they were organized (more on that in a minute). It was at that point that Jim approached Pontiac Motor Division and suggested that he could form a company (Automotive Services) and maintain the records and fulfill these requests for information. At that point the information would still belong to Pontiac (I'm guessing) but he would provide the service as a contractor (I'm sure). All of this was taking place while the records were down in the vault, in the basement of the Administration building.

Eventually, when the Administration building was "closed" (maybe not the right wording, but when the functions were rearranged or offices reallocated) that's when Jim and the records were relocated to Shows & Shoots (which is where I found him). I think you are familiar with the story about Pontiac taking the records back, and in their infinite wisdom they actually threw them out. Jim literally retrieved them from the dumpster which (I suspect) forms the foundation of the dispute over ownership which still exists today or was only recently resolved.

So - about the Super Dutys: The very first request had to do with one of the '62 Super Duty Grand Prix (Allan Gartzman's '62 Grand Prix; one of 16). Fred got a request to check into that car and, having been provided the VIN, he was able to confirm that it was in fact a Super Duty car. There was some variation in how the records were stored based on model year; the '62s were one way (maybe by VIN by Plant) and the '63s were different (like in VIN order by plant but grouped by body style). At any rate what he did was search for that car and then extend his search a little bit in both directions, looking for the engine option code. Eventually, he had a list of VINs going and so he expanded his search to include Catalinas and Bonnevilles (ie, non Grand Prix models) until he had a comprehensive list of 1962 cars. He looked through every 1962 invoice record; He said he continued on into '63 but did not actually look at them all - he went through 160,000 or so invoices but when he got out into the May or June timeframe it had been so long since he had seen any car that even remotely resembled a performance car that he gave up. Bottom line is that Fred literally went through hundreds of thousands of invoices, one by one (on the microfiche) in order to find those cars.

I thought it was fascinating and that others might also be interested. It might be a good idea to get this down on paper (accurately) before it's too late.

[Racer81x]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Then it's a Judge!

Sweet then we have the earlyst judge ever made a 1965

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Racer81x

Sweet then we have the earlyst judge ever made a 1965

LOL! Well played, sir -

K

[Amigo-2k]

A company that I use to work with, in the past, use to review color slides of photos of folks retinas. The pharma companies that paid for these clinical trials would send the slides to the following place:

http://www.burne.com/Scanning.html

To have them scanned and put into a database.

We use to send a couple of bankers boxes a week to them and then a week later they would send it back.

I doubt they have a microf machine, but if they found one they could probably retrofit it with a digital camera.

So PHS could send out 1 reel at a time to them

Someone should put together a business case for this and find an angle investor (Jay Leno).

[aukc]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Eventually, when the Administration building was "closed" (maybe not the right wording, but when the functions were rearranged or offices reallocated) that's when Jim and the records were relocated to Shows & Shoots (which is where I found him). I think you are familiar with the story about Pontiac taking the records back, and in their infinite wisdom they actually threw them out. Jim literally retrieved them from the dumpster which (I suspect) forms the foundation of the dispute over ownership which still exists today or was only recently resolved.

Keith, I'll try to follow your example and write more stuff down when I first hear it, instead of assuming I'll remember it forever, a couple years ago I had a brief phone chat with Reg Harris (PMD Public Relations in early 1990's then went on to SLP) and Reg also mentioned Jim going thru the dumpsters when the admin building was closed, I think Reg said that Jim also retrieved PMD's old Motor Trend COTY awards and other similar stuff from those dumpsters. Sad that Pontiac could have so little respect for it's heritage, but glad Jim was there to save it.

[aukc]

want to mention one of the other related services offered by PHS, which is the reproduction window sticker. Personnally, I have not used the info package service but I do have a PHS reproduction window sticker for my car, and it was well worth it.



When I display my car at shows, I attach the window sticker to the inside of the side window, just like it would have been when for sale new on the dealership lot, using Tack-It repositionable glue. It's a great conversation starter, people will have a look at the window sticker and then start asking questions, sometimes about the millage, options, base price or prices of options, etc.

And in my case, PHS does not officially even support my car - http://www.phs-online.com/window%20sticker%20order.htm

When I first approached PHS about doing a repo window sticker Jim was not able to, but when PHS started offering repo window stickers for the 1990's firebirds, since it uses the same window sticker "stock" I was able to talk him into doing it. I had to find an original example of a window sticker for a similar car (ie. same year and options) and provide my RPO build data (I have the original build sheet and also for my car this info is available online at GM dealer) and working with this PHS was able to reproduce the window sticker for my car. I consider it to be a unique and original collectible work of art, and so I asked Jim to sign it.