[71GP76TA]

Originally Posted by sawyer

Awesome information. Loved the Adam-12 episode. Why no Judge emblem on the fenders of the Adam-12 Judge? GTO emblem instead. Resto shows Judge stickers.

The TLB car is the same way... same car


Regarding the R.F. car, I cut and pasted this from the Ultimate GTO site. Its all that I was able to find..

"- Rockford Files (year?) - [Sean has not rated this episode yet for its GTO content] A 1970 GTO hardtop makes an appearance on one episode. It is red with a sort of white Starsky & Hutch stripe on the side. -"

[starlightblack]

I don't post here much. Just got turned on to this thread. It is awesome that this car still exists. How is it that Hi-Performance Pontiac could not track this guy down when doing their article? Anyway, here is my Two-Lane tribute car circa 2000. It is a real 455HO car. It's in Maine now. I live in Newfoundland, Canada. I look forward to more pics of the TLB Judge in "as found" condition. Can you post them soon Bruce? Thanks again.

[Novaracer]

I posted a link to this thread on the twolane blacktop site.Thought people would be interested.They say it's a fake.
http://twolaneblacktop.yuku.com/topic/328

[Steve Hoog]

RIGHT!

[starlightblack]

Yeah, then they talk about squid..... I'll put my money on Bruce and Steve.

[John V.]

Novaracer, I'm not sure what documentation a particular '55 Chevy has that connects it to TLB. First off, there were 3 '55s used in the filming of TLB. How many still exist? Of those, is it known which was used for race scenes, which was used for interior scenes, etc.? Which of the 3 should be considered the "real" TLB car? And what became of it after TLB? Aside from American Graffiti, how else did Universal use it and when did they dispose of it? Actually much of the '55 Chevy story can be gleaned from the history of the cars used in AG, about which a lot more is known it seems (as compared to what became of the 2 TLB GTOs).

Of the two GTOs that were used in the filming of TLB, I'm not sure we are certain whether the one documented in this thread was used for exterior or interior shots.

I think there is strong evidence that this car was used by Universal in the TLB film. It isn't real clear if it was given to them by PMD in exchange for "promotional considerations". The Invoice shows that the car was Invoiced, and the Sales Type appears to have been "Cash", a rarity. The Documents suggest that it was Charged to the Los Angeles Zone (in Montebello) and shipped to a Zone facility there, although it was ultimately Invoiced to a Retail Dealer at a price apparently established by the LA Zone per a Zone Memo instruction. I am not able to interpret the Invoice entirely, but I can say there are some unusual things on it, like why is the notation for the Advertising Association Collection not posted in the body of the Invoice as done normally? There is no question this was not a run of the mill Zone Stock build.

Since the 2nd GTO has not been identified, there is no way to be sure whether it was also a Judge or a plain GTO painted and striped to look like a twin to the other.

There has been comment in this thread that the TLB car had the Judge emblem on the Glove Box door. But no Judge decals on the exterior. I believe somebody commented that the exterior scenes show a car with Ram Air decals, but not the RAIV decals that presumably the documented GTO should have had. Do we know for sure that this car was seen in ANY of the exterior scenes?

If the 2nd GTO was used for all of the exterior shots, how do you know the decals were removed from this car?

It is also pretty certain that this GTO remained at Universal for several years, appearing in various Universal TV shows (or did the 2nd GTO appear in the TV shows?).

The guys at the TLB site panned and/or ridiculed the documented GTO as having no provenance.

Well, the GTO is known to have been produced at Fremont as a RAIV Judge as documented by Dealer Invoice record. It is known to have been owned by Universal. At the VERY least, it most likely was used in the filming of TLB. And likely appeared in a number of TV shows as documented here.

By the time it was sold by Universal, it no doubt was in a bit different condition than how it appeared in TLB.

The guys at TLB criticize that it was restored so that it doesn't even LOOK how it appeared in TLB. But it apparently HAS been restored to the factory condition as it was most likely presented to Universal originally. I wouldn't expect a bunch of Chevy guys to understand the proof for that.

I guess part of the discussion here could be whether the TLB connection actually impacts the value of this RAIV Judge and if so, by how much?

And would customizing it to make it look like the GTO that you actually saw the exterior of in TLB increase or decrease the value? Especially if you couldn't determine if the exterior shots in the film showed this car or the 2nd GTO.

I don't know anything about '55 Chevys. But I know I'd have very little interest in a hot rodded primer gray example. The only reason such a '55 has much value at all is because it is THE one that was used in TLB. And surely there has got to be much nicer '55s that never appeared in any movie that would be far more valuable.

The TLB GTOs would be a similar story, IMO. If not for the fact that this one was RAIV and Judge equipped (which most certainly IS documented), neither TLB GTO would really be all that interesting or especially valuable.

I think this is where some of the comments at the TLB site are all wrong. That '55 Chevy would probably be pretty worthless except for its connection to TLB (and AG). The RAIV Judge documented here is pretty valuable on its own and the TLB connection only adds a relatively small premium to its value.

Personally, I believe anybody is off base challenging the connection of this GTO to TLB. I believe it is pretty indisputable. You could question why it was not restored to appear like the one seen in TLB, but if you did, I think I have made the case that if you did, THAT could be questioned unless you could prove that this car was the one seen in the exterior scenes. So I don't think it was a mistake to restore it with Judge decals at all.

[Novaracer]

i agree with you.As far as the 55s go there was a car for interior shots and one for exterior shots.The car used for the interior shot was later reused in american graffiti and later sold to a private person and has remained in somewhat(but changed alot) movie condition.The interior car was sold and ended up in canada painted like a graffiti clone.Walt the owner of the TLB site bought it and restored it to look as it did in the movie.The car has been verified by the original builder as the interior car.There was a third car that was not used in tlb that was later used in graffiti in the roll over scene but I don't think there was anything special about it.

[Steve Hoog]

John V

Not sure that you noticed this but probably so; the car was credited back to the dealer (note yellow highlight line) and was delivered to the Zone Office where Universal took possession.

Bruce says he found no mounting brackets welded to the frame or sign there off. (if my memory is correct)

While I obviously leave room for a second GTO/Judge; I have still never once seen a backlot shot or actual film footage that suggests a second car. I only make special note of this because many claim TWO but yet there is only evidence of one; much unlike the 55's which is indisputable.

I don’t think you can get any closer to proving a car was in a movie and tied to the history without actually having a camera on the vehicle 24/7 non stop through the years. IMO

And who wants to sit through 39 years of video? haha

[Steve Hoog]

After several years my memory is fading on this subject a tad; but here or CP or Yenko, someone claimed to have a backlot of two GTO's. I "think" I asked for a copy posted and never got a response.

[OKCHIEF]

It sure looks like the same car on a Kojak episode. It has the same Keystone wheels, black interior and Judge spoiler. There are no stripes on it in this episode. If you want to check it out go to Hulu. It is season 2 episode 10 and it is called "A Souvenir From Atlantic City", and it was first shown 11-10-1974. The car is shown right at the beginning, and then a few more times throughout the show. The bad guys drive it.

[John V.]

Novaracer, the story about the 3rd '55 is a bit reversed. TLB definitely had 3 '55s. Find the link I posted earlier in this thread for an article written DURING THE FILMING that mentions the cars there.

According to the history as documented by Walt Bailey:

For AG, 2 of the '55s from TLB were used. A 3rd '55 was obtained from a salvage yard to use for the AG scene showing it rolled over and then exploded. It was NOT a TLB '55. This hulk was returned to the salvage yard after filming.

All 3 TLB '55s were built by a guy named Richard Ruth. The 2 main cars were the "camera" car and one intended for exterior shots. The 3rd car was considered a "stunt" car with right & left braking. In the scene where James Taylor has to swerve to avoid a wrecked car and truck sitting in the road, the stunt car was supposed to be rolled over in the field, but they didn't roll it so this 3rd "stunt" car survived TLB.

All 3 were put into Universal's prop car fleet after TLB filming ended. It can be assumed that at least 1 of the GTOs ended up in the same fleet, most likely both.

One of the TLB '55s was snatched up by a Universal employee, significantly modified and driven by the guy's teenage son. This was the "camera" car used for the TLB interior shots. It is the car that you describe as owned by Walt now, "restored" to resemble the TLB appearance, but remember, this car was the "camera" car, so I believe you only see its exterior from inside the car, if at all, in TLB. This car was NOT used in AG, the Universal employee had already bought it from Universal before AG began.

For AG, the original TLB "stunt" car had the right & left brake system removed and it became the "camera" car for AG. It was also used in the rollover scene toward the end of AG where it was actually rolled but the salvage yard '55 stood in for the scenes of the car upside down and then exploded/on fire after "Bob" and "Laurie" escape shaken but otherwise unhurt.

The original TLB exterior '55 was used for AG in the same way.

The 2 surviving '55s were given to the AG Transportation Supervisor (a guy named Henry Travers) when AG filming ended. The AG "camera" car chassis (with roll cage) was sold to a racer after Travers removed the drivetrain & front clip, ultimately this chassis was crushed.

Travers sold the TLB/AG exterior '55 about a year after AG filming, it changed hands again, and for a time, one guy owned it and the yellow '32 Ford Coupe. The '32 was kept by Universal and was used in the '79 More American Grafitti sequel and sold sometime after MAG was filmed. I do not know if it appeared in any other films or TV shows between AG & MAG.

The exterior '55 still exists. It was altered from its TLB incarnation for use in AG. It was later altered still further during a "restoration". Although I believe this car is exhibited as the AG car, in the current incarnation it is quite a bit different than the car that appeared in TLB or AG.

And the TLB guys want to pick nits about the appearance of the TLB Judge being unfaithful to the movie? Walt's '55 camera car doesn't sport the camera rig that it did during TLB filming and the motor was swapped out, who knows what else. How faithful is it? I think the TLB Judge may still have its complete original drivetrain.

Of course, the TLB cars were just props. The GTO character (Warren Oates) was important to the story. But if you weren't a GTO fanatic, the Judge wasn't meaningful. In fact, you hardly needed to see the exterior of the Judge at all, the movie would have been virtually unchanged. Except that it captured the essence of an all show wannabe in contrast to the all business '55. The '55 Chevy was just symbolic of any no. of non-descript all go and no show street machines. In fact, Walt tells us that the '55s were delivered with "powder blue" exterior, the studio then repainted them primer gray to fit the image they wanted.

I suppose if you like primer gray big block '55 Chevys, Walt's car is "special" and you are unlikely to give much respect to a factory correct OO RAIV '70 Judge whether it can be proven to have appeared in TLB or not.

Steved400, I noticed the CRR Memo line, but I'm not sure how to interpret this. There is nothing that I see that suggests the car was delivered to anywhere except the Royal dealership in North Hollywood AFTER being shipped to the Zone Storage facility (24-991)in Montebello. Other than a Wanger's claim (which would be suspect in my estimation), is there other evidence to suggest that the car was NOT delivered to and thru Royal? Are you certain that the CRR indicates a Credit back to Royal? I don't doubt this, I just can't make the connection from the Invoice myself. But if it was a Credit, I would expect to see a "-" sign. It looks to me that it is a "special price" rather than a "credit".

Also, please check the TLB link I posted earlier for evidence that there were 2 GTOs "on location" in addition to the 3 '55s. I have pointed to this article before and remind you, it was written DURING the actual filming, not a hazy memory from old recollections.

I consider the article to be proof positive that a 2nd GTO was present. How it was obtained for use in the shoot or what became of it after is unknown.

[Steve Hoog]

John V

This invoicing was just a way that they tweaked the system back then; the car had to be invoiced to a dealer, the only exception that I am aware of is the PMD Retail Store in Pontiac. That can't serve a practical function for a CA needed vehicle.

Also the documentation clearly shows Bill To dealer 991 which is your Royal in CA; Billed To 991 with an immediate full credit, but Ship To “Zone”. This gets the car built but doesn't effect the dealer otherwise; I wouldn't be surprised if the dealer never even knew what happened.

There car was delivered to the Zone office where it was either picked up or driven to the studio.

Are we starting to sound anything like Royal and Knafel getting special deals from Pontiac Engineering?

[Steve Hoog]

Regarding the article; well it's just another verbal.

Again we have for a fact one GTO; and a possible second.

I have seen backlot photos with 2 55's and 1 GTO; maybe 3 55's together but can't remember for sure, still only stories of 2 GTO's regardless of who and when.

[Steve Hoog]

John V

I apologize and correct myself; what I thought was Ship To Zone was in fact a header, there is nothing typed into the Ship To Zone or Dealer boxes that I was looking at.



And to correct myself two post back dealer 991 is the Zone; 290 is Royal.

24 290 Royal Pontiac, 4245 Lankershim Blvd, North Hollywood, CA

There is however a Charge To PMD and Ship to PMD 329 Van Norman Rd which is the Zone office; this is on the build sheet.

Invoice shows Ship To: (zone) 24 (dealer) 991.

24 991 Pontiac Motor Division (S.Calif. Zone)

Sorry for being rusty; but I knew it was all there, just had to knock the cob webs off my brain.

[Steve Hoog]

Originally Posted by robz

Can anyone decipher/clarify to me what's the last line item and 2nd to last with code 9D on PHS ???

robz, sorry..

CRR#24-06I 9D $4139.95 9D

This is all one full line and seems to not follow the two separate sections as all other invoices known to man. I also say this may be a very early Mattison piece or late GM piece due to the blacked out area.

CRR obviously credit

#24 the Zone

06I and 9D good luck!

[John V.]

Is this the pic? Obviously low quality, but I think 2 '55s and a GTO on the transporter, and a 3rd '55, presumably the interior car with camera rig and set up to be towed. It isn't a "back lot" pic, this was taken on location during TLB filming apparently.

If there is a 2nd GTO in the pic, no way I can pick it out. I was thinking that it is likely that a filmmaker could detect if there was a camera rig GTO from scenes in the movie.

I think there must have been. As to the article being "just another verbal", I disagree with you a bit. If there was a discernible 2nd GTO somewhere in that parking lot pic, that would ONLY be circumstantial evidence.

What is so useful about the written account was that it was written while the movie was being filmed. And the account wasn't specifically about the cars. It was just some commentary about the "troupe" that hit the road to make the film.

If somebody had asked James T. or Monte H. or anybody else that was in the entourage a question 25 years after the filming specifically whether there were 2 GTOs, you would get a reply that was based on faded memories. I certainly wouldn't take it as gospel. Maybe that is a factoid that just didn't stick with them, certainly not the most memorable thing any of them would likely have stored away.

But the contemporaneous written account is far more likely to be accurate. And clearly the writer got it correct concerning the 3 '55s, why would we suspect he got it wrong about "two matching GTOs"?

I also disagree that CRR is "obviously credit".

The 9D lines are all to be taken as one. 04-01 is the Date. I believe CRR#24-06I identifies the car and/or a Zone produced Memo that was tied to this Invoice. $4139.95 is just as likely to represent a price as a credit.

I agree with you about the blacked out sections, this was done back when PMD provided the docs free before Mattison created PHS.

9D line items are common to Special "Memo" instructions.

I have to correct an earlier error of my own. I stated that the placement of the Advertising Association fee for the Los Angeles Zone was not listed in the normal place. Apparently, on the '70 Invoices, the Ad Assoc. fee WAS always listed in this Box, same on any other Dealer Invoice where an Ad Assoc. fee was required.

Generally, this Invoice looks like countless others that were generated from Dealer purchases of cars that were in Zone Stock inventory.

Even the dates show a car that was originally shipped to the Zone Stock facility about March 20th, while the Dealer purchase was made on or about April 1 with the Invoice generated April 3.

I previously mentioned the Code "C" Sales Type for a Cash Sale which is very unusual. The Invoice form is the "Draft" form rather than the "Note" form that was used when GMAC provided the wholesale financing.

IMO, $4139.95 just represents the agreed price. Whether that amount was charged to the Zone, to PMD, or was paid by the producers of TLB, I don't believe you can discern from the Invoice.

If this was truly a Credit indicated on the Invoice, you would expect to see the Invoice Amount 00.00. Since it is blacked out, I can't be sure, but I really don't think that is the case.

You would have to have the original "MEMO" to see exactly what special instruction was to be applied.

In the end, the result may have been the car WAS free to the TLB producers. I guess all I am really trying to get across is that there is nothing on the Invoice that proves that and it is just as likely they actually PAID $4139.95 for the car.

[John V.]

Oops, don't know where the attachment went, try again.

[Steve Hoog]

John V

That is not the pic that I have seen; and unfortunately I didn't save and can't seem to find it again.

Don't worry about this two GTO part so much; I'm in the general thinking there should have been two as well, my biggest problem is that I have never seen a photo. Also if you compare options and details in various shots; I have found no discrepancies that would lead me to think there are two non identical cars. So then you would have to be left with the possibility that Pontiac gave the studio 2 identical RAIV cars? Or at least everything but the motor…

Just as a theory; say Pontiac did give them this IV Judge but would not a second, it would make sense then that the studio buys an inexpensive Lemans and doctors it up.

On the “memo” cars; all of my knowledge is that “memo” cars were special built as in something out of the ordinary, this Judge we are talking about is not a special built per say but special invoicing. Yes “memo” cars use 9D; but I suspect that is just a code to all miscellaneous typing on the invoice more so than a meaningful code; just a guess on my part.

CRR#24-06I

Indisputable that 24 is the Zone.

I still say CRR is credit; just my opinion of course and no fact to back it up.

06I thought, why would you say it is the car?

If you have seen other cars shipped to Zone; ok, but I have never seen this.

The only other car that I have seen something bizarre in way of invoicing was the Buy Back Blue Bobcat invoice; not the codes per say, but it leads to the fact an invoice can be recreated after the original build invoice was done.

Two things of major frustration for me and Bruce may be able to help on one.

1. I don’t have the email exchange with Wangers on this matter. While I know Wangers makes mistakes; he very well admitted that he had been wrong about the TLB all the years because of these documents, he supported Bruce’s story, he collaborated the theory on what the invoice meant, and in fact agreed that this was the car. Take that for what it’s worth.
2. I can’t find the original thread on Rich’s site; I may have important information over there if it even still exists. I lost the link and can’t search for shiznot over there.

Also a side concern; we may have posted some stuff on this car over at the Yenko site as well but I can’t find that either.

[Red69Goat]

I'll have to take a look at the TLB DVD set that I have. It has been awhile since I watched it, but I could have sworn one of the behind the scenes photos from the extra disc has 2 gtos on the set.

[John V.]

That would be great if you could find such a scene.

I wonder if the license plate could be tied to the various TV scenes that have been mentioned here, any chance you can make one out? I see Cal tag 610 APO (O could be a Q) on the TLB car.

Steved, I agree #24 refers to the Zone. Only Invoice I can point to with a similar notation shows "CC 7305 S-1" and "9D". No price associated with this particular Line Item but the Invoice also includes a Line Item notation "5 PCT. CAR 163.50 OPT 79.78", with the amounts listed as the SRP and the Amount while OPT is the Code. No idea what this means and it is not added to any of the Invoice Totals.

An initial Invoice for this car identifies it as a PMD Factory Company Car, shipped and charged to PMD at Pontiac, Mich in early June '70 (when produced). A 2nd Invoice was issued when PMD sold it to a PA dealer in Zone 06 in late Sept. '70. This 2nd Invoice also shows that it was shipped to "06 991", a Zone facility in the Pittsburgh Zone. No indication of how/why it went from Pontiac to Pittsburgh.

On the original Invoice there is a notation "30% 3787.67". No indication what this means and no apparent connection to the Invoice totals. No Destination Amount on the 1st Invoice but $63.56 for Destination on the 2nd Invoice and it is added to the total for SRP.

The Car Base Price Amount was reduced from $2583.30 on the 1st Invoice to $2125.50 on the 2nd Invoice. None of the SRPs are changed however. None of the Option pricing is changed at all.

I can't say what CRR or CC might mean. CRR could mean "Cash Received Report".

I suggested 24-06I could either identify the asset (the car itself) for accounting purposes or it could have identified a Memo No. issued by Zone 24 that discussed the disposition of this particular sale.

I don't recall what Wangers once claimed about the TLB car. No surprise if the facts later proved him wrong and he now abides by a "new" story based on uncovered evidence. Not trying to be critical of him, I don't know the guy at all. But that would be consistent with my perception concerning his take on other PMD historical stuff. Sometimes his stories just don't jive with the evidence and then his story will change.

I am absolutely convinced that Bruce's car is "the" TLB car. But I am equally convinced that another Orbit Orange car was also used in some way during filming. Whether it was a Lemans, Judge, regular GTO or something else and whether it was borrowed, owned by the Producer, purchased by Universal for the TLB production, given to them by PMD, already in the Universal fleet, or came to be there by some other explanation, I have no idea.

Unless a similar Invoice is turned up, it is unlikely we'll ever know.

On the question of cars shipped to Zones, I know of LOTS of them. Every car produced for Zone Stock inventory was shipped 1st to the Zone (Zone Dealer Code of 991, 992, 993, etc.). Usually, the only PHS record that will exist for these cars is the one that shows the car finally sold to a retail dealer. If you are unaware, the Invoice Identification No. on these cars will always show a 1st character "Z" and will be invoiced days, weeks, and sometimes months after they were built while cars built to an actual Dealer Order will be Invoiced immediately upon being built, will always show the "Ship To" Dealer Code to be the same as the "Sold To" Dealer Code and show a 1st character "P" for the ID No.

The couple cases where a 2nd Invoice record exists such as the one described above suggests that PMD may have ALWAYS issued an initial "Invoice" for Zone Stock builds for accounting purposes and so they could keep track of this Inventory. When the car was finally sold, a 2nd Invoice was issued and the Books were balanced.

The Dealer Invoice reflected actual Invoice Amounts. In part, this is why I do not think "CRR" means a Credit. Who would be receiving the Credit? If the Dealer was to receive the car at No Charge, that could have been reflected directly in the Invoice Amounts.

In fact, "Credit Options" were not uncommon. Don't have a '70 example, but for one I've seen, there is a "-" minus sign after the Amounts. Just seems to me that if this was intended as a Credit, it would have been listed in the Amount column, shown the "-" sign and impacted the Total which is blacked out on the copy but I don't think is 00.00.

Perhaps, if the Dealer had given Cash to the Zone in exchange for the car, it would make sense that the Dealer was Invoiced, it was recorded as a Cash sale (ID prefix ZZC, C for Cash), and the Zone dutifully reported to Accounting that they had received the Cash in the amount of $4139.95 from the Dealer, settling the account.

Just a theory. And my opinion without evidence.