[64tempest]

OK, Lets say you have well over 30% of the car as well as vin and trim tag "chunks" to be put on another car. Im not one sided on this, but , as I agree with all views so far. Im still just want to know if this is legal, or justifiable. Ive been in this hobby for a long time and hate to admit that I sent many totaled cars to the grave in years past, and Id like to bring one back now. I could sell off the parts and do well, but this car(parts) deserves a second chance. If the original owner would have sold it when I first tried to buy it, I would not be here now asking these questions. Sadly many years past as well as the owner and all that is left now is alot of parts and a cowell "chunk" and phs record of a long lost car. I said before , this car sat and was in horrible shape, when pulled on the trailer, the rear bumper (and some frame) and gas tank stayed on the ground, hes it not been for the door strikers, this car would have fell in two. Another classic case of Ill get to it some time and off to the crusher it goes. This one may be saved someday, but I wont do it illegal and will check all routes possible before I give up. This is the car that got me in this whole hobby to start with, but I had to wait till the owner let go, actualy died and then a several year struggle with family

[cscottfergus]

If you have a rusted out car and replace one part is it still the same car? Yes. How bout two parts? Yes . How about 2,000 parts. Where do you draw the line.
I think it definitely would be fraud if you or someone else manufactured new tags for a car that you did not have or own and then try to pass it off as real.
Original tags are a piece of a car just like anytything else. So on a rusty car there should be nothing stopping you from replacing every other part on the car. As long as they were still there you could replace everything else while leaving them attached to the car. I know that is not practical but could be done.

---------------------------
1967 Firebird 400 conv, 1989 Formula 350

[PMDRACER]

My opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Let's take 2 scenarios:

1. A GTO that is rusted almost to no end. Floors and braces, trunk, 1/4's, rear window channel, cowl, etc. You get the idea. To fix this car you need to buy every patch panel offered and even fabricate some. You fix this car by cutting out all the bad sheetmental and braces and patch/weld new in. An extreme case for sure, but we've all heard of it happening.

2. Same GTO, same condition. Same year LeMans body in perfect condition. The body is swapped, along with the tags. And it's done legally.

BTW - In California, you can do this legally, but the tag swap must be done with the presence of a state referee, or an referee-appointed person (meaning DMV personnel or police officer) as witness.

Now with these two scenarios, which is original? We have one body with hardly any original sheetmetal. One has all original from the factory sheetmetal. Trading the VIN does not create a new car. If anything it takes a LeMans out of existance. If we are to say that all the parts to a GTO can be replaced except the VIN, then as long as I have a cowl with a VIN and it's original rivets, I have a GTO no matter what I replace?

What if the cowl to a GTO is rusty? Do I no longer have a GTO when I replace it, since I have to remove the VIN for the repairs?

What I think this come down to is attitude and people being sentimental. A rusted out GTO shell is sacred. A pristine LeMans shell is "Just a LeMans".


Obviously this debate will become more and more prevalent as the years go by.

TIGER EFI - Electronic Fuel Injection for the Traditional Pontiac Engine. bill@tigerefi.com

[68ragtop]

I think if its a driver car, & is never anything more for the rest of its life, it wouldn't bother me a whole lot. But, who is to say where that car will be in 20 years? If I found out my 68 GTO was previously swapped by a previous owner, after pouring 15-20K into the restoration, I would be wild about it.

If you really think about it, what is the purpose of swapping the tags? 9 times out of 10, its probobly about the money. Otherwise a person can make a foolproof clone, & it would be just as nice of a car, just wouldn't have the value. It is a shame to see rusty, but real GTO get recycled, but isn't that what makes all of the real ones rare as time goes on?

I for one would be very upset If I paid top money for a 69 judge convertible, & somehow later found out it was a lemans. I know metal is metal, If the car is cowl cut or sectioned together, that is a reasonable debate, but I think the line is drawn when the tag is physically swaped.

I hope not to offend anyone, thats just how I feel, 68ragtop

1968 GTO Convertible (currently my resto project)
1978 Gold Edition Trans am
1979 10th aniversary T/A
1980 Pace Car Trans am

[cscottfergus]

On a rusty GTO. Is it still GTO if you leave the ViN on the cowl and cut the cowl out and weld a LeMans to it? Not practical soltuion I know.

Don't know if the question can ever be settled to everyones definition of authentic vs fake. Guess it pays to be observant and informed and everyone will have to make there own minds up about what is a acceptable to them on rebodying.


It is clearly a fraud to take a LeMans and stick some badges and accessories on it and tell someone that it is a real GTO. That is the most common type of fake I think.

Swapping bodies won't be a fraud if its legal and you tell the truth. Of course people don't always tell the truth. Buyer Beware!

Obviously a rare car with a swapped body or extensive surgery would be worth much less than a untouched pristine original. It would be worth as much as a nice LeMans at least , right?

---------------------------
1967 Firebird 400 conv, 1989 Formula 350

[gto*johnny]

At a recent GTOAA Nats Jim Mattison from PHS touched on this briefly. As my memory is not foolproof, I will ask anyone who was also there and remembers his comments to correct me if I am remembering wrong- Jim Kreim, if you read this, I think you were there also.
Anyway, he said that posession of the STAR rivits (like they're just laying in your tool box) that go onto the VIN Tag is a Federal Felony. He was very specific about this. He also noted that they (PHS) report suspicions of tag-swaps to the FBI. There was some story about the FBI being called for a suspected tag-switch on a a '71 or '72 GTO, I believe, but I do not remember the specifics. So I suspect that tag-switching is not legal, although the comment made previously about California allowing it might not surprise me.

I do agree that I would regret seeing a GTO get crushed, instead of being "saved", if it can be saved legally. I wonder if a "new" Collector's Edition 2003 T/A got crossed-up on a slick patch of road and went backwards into a bridge embankment, and there was another new T/A that needed a front clip/subframe, what would happen?!? Would the insurance company "total" both cars out, or would they take the front clip and sub-frame off the one, and "fix" the other?

I was a little disappointed at Scott Tiemann's comments on the subject a while back, but not surprised. On the positive side, at least he admits it happens.

If I were a buyer, I think I would be a little worried now-days that a car that might come from one of the HIGH-DOLLAR shops might have a one car's frame, a different car's body shell, a re-stamped block, and the tags off another car. Kind of reminds me of the story told about the Smithsonian Museum in Washington DC. They have the original axe that George Washington used to chop down that famous cherry tree. But, over all these years, they've had to replace the axe-head once, and the handle twice!!
John "The Judge" Johnson

[Stuart]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gto*johnny:
Anyway, he said that posession of the STAR rivits (like they're just laying in your tool box) that go onto the VIN Tag is a Federal Felony. He was very specific about this.

Hmm...I know there's more than one vendor out there that sells repro trim tags, along with the correct rivets, and as far as I know they are legitimate businesses who take measures to make sure they aren't making counterfeit tags. Maybe they just tell the feds they are for 'novelty purposes.'

There are times when a person would want to temporarily remove the trim tag while painting the car, or replace a tag that's been damaged, and either situation doesn't seem like it should be an illegal act.

[Hammered]

Trim Tags are different from VIN Tags and use different rivets. Trim Tags usually have a larger diameter round, open centered rivet. The Trim Tag vendors are quick to note that they do not reproduce VIN tags.

John

[64tempest]

I have a 64 conv that went thru a frame off a few years ago as well. in the restoration process the frame was replaced with a rust free western unit as the original was rotten pretty bad in a few places, but I still have that as well. This car placed very well in shows when first done, but starting so show the fact that I drive my cars. I plan on another restoration on this car again in the next few years so my son can enjoy it as much as I have, or is it worth the effort because it does not have the original frame under it?

I have other cars as well with replacement parts that are not as major as the frame and that does not bother me as much.


My opinion,for what it is worth is that original cars are just that and restored cars are just that as well, do what you have to to bring one back as long as you document the process and represent as such. If I was to buy a frame off restored car from a private seller I would reguest pictures or video of the restoration, buyer be smart! Hell if you have a vin tag and title from a 55-57 chevy. you can build a convertible complete from repro parts, early mustangs as well, you need very little to build one of these cars.

I would like to hear more on the Ca tag switch and Im going to start bugging my local DMV nd see what I come up with here and Ill post it soon as I get some answers

[Stuart]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hammered:
Trim Tags are different from VIN Tags and use different rivets. Trim Tags usually have a larger diameter round, open centered rivet. The Trim Tag vendors are quick to note that they do not reproduce VIN tags.

John<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops, I was thinking too old when I posted...my car is a '61 so it doesn't have the modern style VIN tag on the dashboard. You're right, of course.

[64tempest]

One more thing I forgot to add or ask ? I have a 64 Tempest wagon that is very original and I have all paper work and PHS papers for also. However the cowell tag is missing and neither owner before me remembers it being there. It location is visable and does not appeared to be tampered with ans the chalk markings are there under its location.

Question being is how do I obtain a replacment in this situation??

[gearbanger]

I think if the car has been retagged and the person knows it and lays it all out on the table if or when he sells it, and doesn't try to hide anything then it is worth whatever he can get out of it. I think having that VIN out cruising the streets is better than having it laying in a pile of rust somewhere. There were so many GTO's made and if we could have them all on the road I think that would be cool. Obviously these kinds of cars shouldn't be worth as much as a rust free origional but hey, if you don't need a rust free origional then you can have a sharp GTO that has been resurrected from the dead. I think that a rust free origional Tempest should be worth more than a restamped GTO but I bet it isn't.

[cscottfergus]

IF you are interested in knowing more about a company that makes reproduction cowl tags and rivets please go to my post entitled

Attention! Repro Cowl Trim Tags (source)

by cscottfergus

on the BODY SHOP TECH section of this forum

---------------------------
1967 Firebird 400 conv T400 3.08, 1989 Formula 350 700r4 3.27

[This message was edited by cscottfergus on August 25, 2003 at 06:53 PM.]

[cscottfergus]

I haven't checked this out yet but here it is.
Scott

email transcript follows.........
-------
They are available from Jim Clemens in Florida. he does a very nice job!!321-639-8431

>----- ------- Original Message ------- -----
>From: "C. Scott Ferguson"
><cscottfergus@earthlink.net>
>To: <joe@ trimtags.com>
>Sent: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:00:25
>
>Joe ,
>I saw your website. Looks nice. Do you or have you
>ever thought about making
>reproduction protecto-plates for GM 1960's cars.
>You know the warranty plate
>that came with the owners manual. Maybe you could
>team up with a good
>reproduction owners manual printer to offer this
>service.
>
>Scott

Joe Papier
Trim Tags, Inc.
900 Port Clinton Ct. W.
Buffalo Grove, IL 60089-6637
Ph/Fax: 847-478-TAGS
TRIMTAGS.COM

---------------------------
1967 Firebird 400 conv T400 3.08, 1989 Formula 350 700r4 3.27

[superdutydave]

The way I always heard is that it is a felony to remove,have, or install vin tags. That said, I have auto repair/body/resto shop. Among other things I have done resto work on Triumphs and MGs and you can buy a Brand New body-complete straight from England -(wouldn`t we love a Brand New Goat/T/A body?) body and start fresh. And ofcourse I have transfered tags to new body. No evil here, but I think I have sold rot boxes to evil tag swappers over the years.

[Rapdron]

I have a question about bringing back a GTO from the bone yard. I have a 67 Lemans,428,m-20, 3.23 10 bolt posi rust bucket which I bought as a potential future parts car.
At first I thought I might be able to salvage it, but the 1/4's,rear window, trunk & wheel houses are too far gone for 1) the cost, especially as a Lemans & 2) the sheetmetal available today. (CCass, where are the full 67 1/4's we were promised?)
Aside from the outer sheetmetal & the 69 428 motor, it's a very complete, untouched & correct car, with ps, pb, buckets, console & a/c. It has all tags on rear, carb, trans., radio, etc which is a plus.
I just purchased an amazingly rust-free 67 GTO 4spd ht shell with cowl & vin tags intact. Since I have the 67 Lemans, I can transfer everything into the 67 GTO. They're even the same body color, so my blue buckets, dash & console match.
I know it will never be a #'s matching GTO, but would it be safe to say it's a "restored" GTO, since the body & the frame are the original parts, and everything I will be transfering would be 67 correct, but from a Lemans?
I doubt I would ever want to sell the car since I've always liked the 67 body style, but I have to realize that may happen someday.
I would be honest about it's history to any potential new owners, but after it's gone who knows....
Any thoughts?

Another Red Light Nightmare

[gearbanger]

So, are the people that put tags off rotten GTO's onto good Tempest or Lemans evil because they don't tell people what the car is when they go to sell it? Do other GTO people not like it because they are misleading people or is it because they want there to be less GTOs so theirs will be worth more? If our goats don't have the origional equipment still intact but are "numbers matching" then how is that any better. Just because it is numbers matching doesn't mean that is the way it came out from the factory. It is an accurate representation of the way it came out from the factory. So just because it is not the origional body, doesn't mean that isn't an accurate representation of the way it came out from the factory. It is only a matter of honesty. If it is against the law and you can't be honest about it, that is one thing. But if it can be done in accordance with the law then I think it is fine.
Your all origional GTO is still worth the most, and the restamped GTO is still worth the least. And that is simply because of nostalgia.

[64tempest]

I looked in to the trim tag people available, they are willing to change body color and options, but will not change body style ( Tempest to GTO) etc..

The fact remains that people can build what ever they want and get it doccumented one way or another. Thanks to PHS we have an avenue over any other make to research our cars for us, and that is nothing short of awsome!

But the bottom line here is the legal aspect of vin swaps or cowell swaps and what is considered correct in this aspect. This has been been an ongoing issue here for some time and Im starting to think the answer is what ever is done or has been done in the past is acceptable these days, read the previous post from the nations restorers.

You need to get all documentation on your car or potential buy up front, and simply ask questions to the heritage of the cars. Any restored car and even some original cars are of questionable heritage unless you know the car from the factory, sadly that is the bottom line, even worse there are alot more fakes ,not reconstructed , just fakes than original cars out there these days. Buyer beware and spend a few bucks researching the car before you spend alot and find out what you just bought!

[robert strohrigl]

ok i agree with everything here but what about me

heres the deal, please help???

i bought a 69 conv , its all apart and the whole dash area (metal
part) is out
the cowl tag is there but the vin is gone

what can i do to get this on the road?

in indiana i can apply for a lost title, but how can i go about getting a
vin plate??
does the cowl and vin have to match??

again,
the car is already bought from ga, coming to indiana!!!
i'm getting a ebayers bill of sale, thru the ebay system, bought there!!
and i have all his info, i.e., address ph# etc
its in pieces all but the rolling shell, body is pretty decent shape
not mint but workable, Q-ers need work
has most the parts there, it looks like it was going to be restored at one
time?
the dash is out and i figure the vin was lost when they were taking it apart,
theres no title
however there is the cowl tag, so if stolen why would all the parts be there
and the cowl tag?

its not like the cope are coming looking for me as the car will be put away

and i don think ga will expediate me down there

all i want it good advise as to how i can get a new vin title and cowl tag,
or a cowl tag and vin, or even just a vin, so i can apply for a lost title

i really hate to part this, id make plenty of money but i'd rather keep a
pontiac on the road ........... HELP!!!

thx bob

ALL AMERICAN PONTIAC LOVER

[cscottfergus]

If it is not possible to find the old vin somewhere on the car and apply for a title or get a new vin. Then maybe it is possible to register it as a kit car or something? People who build cars from scratch register them, why not an old body that wasa modified registered? Just an idea. Maybe a personal trip down to the tag office would get your questions answered as to what is possible?

---------------------------
1967 Firebird 400 conv T400 3.08, 1989 Formula 350 700r4 3.27