[Formulabruce]

Vin tags are removed by the hundreds every day on salvage vehicles, some get retitled with a new VIN issued from the state. There are many here where I live who make a living doing that paperwork for the hot rod guys in the midwest. They usually are trying to get a old t-bucket frame or something registered, some have numbers, some dont. Most guys are smart and choose a number that could have been an original number and get it done. This is the same as the state issuing a stupid vin, and its quicker and it gets you a antique or hot rod plate if you want.
Theres alot of passion in these pages of posts. Should a junkyard get your "judge" vin and cowl tag if you junk the car?, HELL NO. But is it about money?, or destroying all the "poosible rebody vins and cowl tags to make yours worth more'? Is it about worth at all?
I think it was page 4, lol, a guy posted he had all his slips and never added up his cost, because hes out HAVING FUN!! (getting something out of his investment)
Here in New England we have a real good idea on rust, most guys I meet from southern sates want to do a paint job and interior and a engine rebuild and call it a resto, thats nice, but not all projects are that rust free. most really rusty cars (black rust) can only be dipped (acid)to get the rust out.
Personally, I would rebody, leave current tags on the shell>> car (dont even change the firewall) take a pic of the rare donor car before hand, put it in a frame with the cowl tag and vin and show it with car if you show your car. send the rest to the JY as scrap and get driving that pontiac, Lifes too short
ps, people pay good money for clones or rebodys, and most buying them, if there gonna use it would rather a rustfree car than one thats been a patchwork quilt.

[Bob Rutledge]

After reading all of this, and I mean every post, I have come up with an idea that can be implemented now that will ensure cars being made today, we will never have to worry about this anymore. Make cars out of the same material as the VIN. You keep hearing about all these rusty cars, yet the VIN's are in great shape. Makes you think, doesn't it?

[semopontiacman]

OK I am not saying either way on this topic. but here is a link for you guys to look at. http://www.hemmings.com/index.cfm/fu.../type/hardware

[Pod]

WOW! $40 for TWO rivets! Makes you think, doesn't it?

[PonchoV8]

I heard of them selling for 100 a pop in Detroit back in the 80s.

[md1twal3]

As one of the posters on this forum asked earlier - how many people have trashed a perfectly good GTO in order to "restore" a rusty LeMans?

I rest my case.[/QUOTE]

Hi, Pod...me again

...from our previous string of discussion on this topic...I believe I had a rebuttle for that posters comment that "un rests your case".

My exact quote: "NOTE: For anyone who isn't familiar with Caddy's...a Calais is a low line car...a DeVille is more desirable and more highly optioned, and more valuable. So, the question was asked...would someone take a GTO apart to save a Lemans......maybe....if the Lemans means something to them, like this Caddy means to me. Market value does not drive all restoration projects....DESIRE still drives some..."

Bottom line: IT GETS DONE FOR MORE REASONS THAN MONEY AND DECEPTION, and my example proves that.

now you can rest your case...

[Pod]

Well, hello again. I'm most amused that you don't want to let this matter rest

The fact is, this is a Pontiac forum and we are not talking about Cadillacs well, I'm not anyway! I know very little about Cadillacs and care even less. I'm certainly NOT going to get embroiled into an argument about them. On the other hand, I DO care about GTOs!

IF you have restored a Calais by trashing a DeVille which was more valuable (?) then jolly good luck to you. YOUR example shows exactly that! However, you DID NOT trash a perfectly good GTO to restore a rusty LeMans. THAT was the point I was making. Nothing else

May I assume you will NOW let my case rest? Please?

[RevGTO]

I don't have any grief with it as long as the car is represented for what it is - a "resurrected", cloned, or reconstructed car. In Kansas it's called an "assembled" car. It might have a LeMans body or frame, but legally, and at a car show or cruise, it's a GTO. As long as it's not represented to a potential buyer as an original GTO, and the price represents its muddled heritage, there's no rip-off - so who cares?

[g68mike]

I heard of a car that is supoosed to be a retagged judge this year. At GTO nationals this year I guess he got a silver and complained about it and then was given a gold. I hear the car was rebodied once, then had a firewall hung on it to change it back to non air. Even had the body data tag changed to match the changed interior color. One car, multiple retags. I guess this is more common then we think??

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by Pod

Well, hello again. I'm most amused that you don't want to let this matter rest

The fact is, this is a Pontiac forum and we are not talking about Cadillacs well, I'm not anyway! I know very little about Cadillacs and care even less. I'm certainly NOT going to get embroiled into an argument about them. On the other hand, I DO care about GTOs!

IF you have restored a Calais by trashing a DeVille which was more valuable (?) then jolly good luck to you. YOUR example shows exactly that! However, you DID NOT trash a perfectly good GTO to restore a rusty LeMans. THAT was the point I was making. Nothing else

May I assume you will NOW let my case rest? Please?

Sure...I will let it rest, after a short response...

I do apologize that my TRUE example ("IF you have restored a Calais...") of clipping A CAR is of the interest of the overall car hobby. I care for many more cars than GTOs, and carry the same value of restorational practices for each, equally.

Any my point to yours is simple...Regardless of make model or manufacturer, IT'S ONLY METAL.

Anyway...I will let it rest (as long as you do), to which I must point out that you are actually the one that brought up "that" post, in this forum topic. Who is it that isn't lettting it rest? Oh...wait...I know... Pod!

[Pod]

[Ron Landis]

Just got home from Springfield Cars and Parts. Saw the same guy I always see on a golf cart with a sigh "titles for sale". Go figure. Can this be anything but fraud? Otherwise, I agree with RAJohn. If rebuilding a legit car, a body shell is just another part. Cutting everything but the VIN and creating a patchwork quilt of sheetmetal is not only ridiculous, but can in no way make a car worth more in my opinion than using a rust free shell. As stated, when a car is dipped, the tags MUST come off. At that point, the remaining shell is but another piece of sheet metal. Case in piont...you can now buy a complete Camaro convertible shell aftermarket. Who believes that these will be titles as 2005s rather than restored '69s? And, again...who belives in the tooth fairy? I agree, creating something that wasn't....fraud! recreating is restoring, no matter to what extent of work is involved.

[md1twal3]

As one of the posters on this forum asked earlier - how many people have trashed a perfectly good GTO in order to "restore" a rusty LeMans?

I rest my case.[/QUOTE]

Darn it, Pod...I thought I was done, until I saw this post:

http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthread.php?t=452373

It looks like it has happened and it isn't even in a Cadillac world

Now...I rest my case...

[Geeto Tiger]

Also Chip Foose took Armstrong's GTO and put Sprint 6 emblems on it...

[Pod]

Oh no, md1, not again!

[md1twal3]

Originally Posted by Pod

Oh no, md1, not again!

Sorry, man...I know you care about GTOs, and I found a real example of where a GTO was cut up to save a rusty Lemans! I knew right away that you would want to know

[Pod]

NOW you're talking!!!

[don'tJUDGEme]

Hello all....I stumbled across your forum while looking for info on this exact subject. I have read this entire thread and I think you guys are talking about me.
Here is my story...I'll try to keep it short.

About a year ago I picked up a 69 RA III Judge in need of a complete restore but complete. I did my research and sent the #s to the PHS. They sent back the info I wanted. Warwick Blue RA III Judge, 4-speed, built in Freemont, all #s match (with the exception of the rear end.)

Fast forward one year....Having no time and needing some money, I decide to sell the car without doing anything to it. I get a buyer who exchanges cash for the car after only viewing pictures and the PHS docs. Oh yes, forgot to mention, I have current title for the car also. After the car is delivered to him, he discovers that the rivets on the VIN are incorrect. Further investigation shows that the frame #s (that I did not know to check) do not match the VIN tag.
He calls me and after explaining his findings, I refund his money, plus his shipping costs, and have the car returned to me.

Now, here is what I have....
A PHS documented 1969 GTO RA III Judge Vin tag, trim tag, Engine and 4-speed. The doors, hood, fenders, trunk lid, all interior and interior options are also from the judge (original Warwick Blue still on panels). The frame, rearend and body are from a 69 GTO built about 3 months later. It appears as though this car has spent most of it's life this way. I'm guessing that the car was involved in an accident early in it's life and either an owner or a body shop repaired it this way.

What do I do now?

[Jack Ferris]

Sell it to me......

[don'tJUDGEme]

What's it worth?