[Cliff R]

According to the laws we currently live by, you are NOT allowed to protect your personal property from theft. Aside maybe if you live in Texas and someone is steeling your car, as the horse steeling laws are supposedly still on the books? I wasn't a Law Enforcent officer in Texas, but have 26 years of experience with the Fed's.

Everywhere else that I know of you have no right/rights whatsover to protect your personal property by using deadly force against the thief/theives. This includes home invasions, yet it becomes much easier to justify killing an intruder inside your home, as it leaves you with little avenue(s) of escape, and much more ammunition for convincing a judge/jury at a later date that by the assailant being INSIDE YOUR HOME, that you indeed at some point actually fear for your life?

I can tell you without reservation, if you see someone stealing your car, tires, tools, lawn mower, or anything else in your yard or outside your home, and you arm yourself, and leave the safety of your home to prevent the theft, then end up shooting/killing the theif, you will be charged with felony assault/murder, etc. This doesn't mean that you will be convicted. In addition, in most municipalities, you will also be charged with firing a weapon inside the city limits, and in some states/cities you may actually be charged with felony possession of a weapon.

The ONLY time you will ever be justified in using deadly force in any situation, in any location, is that you were indeed afraid for your life, or protecting the life/lives of others. In these situations, the person that you use/attempt to stop by using deadly force, MUST be using deadly force against you OR someone else, or by their actions you deem that their use of deadly force was immenent.

Right, wrong, or otherwise, that's the way it is. In simple terms, if you see someone outside your home stealing the tires off your truck, and you arm yourself, leave your home, and confront the theif, then end up using deadly force to stop the theft, you are absolutely and completely wrong in ALL cases.

However, the fine line that separates a theft from a situation where you are justified in using deadly force, can be as simple as: at some point during the encounter with the theif, you were place in, THOUGHT, BELIEVED or PERCEIVED that they were going to use deadly force against you (or someone else). This doesn't necessarily mean that they had to be armed with a gun or knife, although that makes your claim obvious that you were, or could have been at some point, indeed afraid that deadly force were going to be used against you. By the subjects ACTIONS, or WORDS, etc, you indeed believe that they were going to use deadly force against you during the encounter.

The last statement makes it relatively easy to convince ANYONE after the fact that you were justified in using deadly force inside your home. Simply because your home is consider a safe place, leaves little avenues for retreat, and more than likely there are other family members in your home to protect. It does however, leave "gray" areas if/when you were to use deadly force outside your home in attempt(s) to protect your personal property.

You will no doubt be questioned (extensively) as to why you chose to leave the safety of your home to confront the attacker, and to stay and fight, when you had multiple avenues of escape (going back in your house), running away, etc.

Bottom line is folks, it's simply not right to exit your home with a gun, or any other object capable of killing a theif, simply to protect your personal property. With that said, if you chose to do the "wrong" (personally I think it's the right thing) thing, and keep some POS from steeling your new tires/wheels, fully understand that if/when you use deadly force to stop the theft, that you make damn sure that anyone investigating the incident at any later date, knows FULL well that at some point in the encounter with the perpetraitor, that you were indeed afraid for your life, or really, truely believed that the thief was going to use DEADLY FORCE against you during the enounter.

With all of this in mind, make sure that anyone investigating any situation where you chose to use deadly force to stop at assailant, or theif, knows full well that at some point during the encounter you were afraid for you life, or the life/lives of others. This can be as simple as words and/or actions used by the assailant/theif, it does not mean that they necessarily have to be armed, but it sure HELPS if they armed themselves at some point prior to or during the encounter with a screwdriver, cresent wrench, hammer, yard rake, tire iron, brick, ball bat, kitchen knife, or whatever they would/could have had access to before you confronted them!........FWIW.....Cliff

[speedshopmike]

clay, you been ignoring my emails about the intake.
what's the story?
least you could do is give an answer.
-mike

[screamingchief]

Down here folks it's a whole other ballgame!!!

If it's during the night and your a thief (or even a vandal) your fair game.

A person can use deadly force to protect their property,can also use it to stop the perpetrator from fleeing too.

A person can also protect anothers property with deadly force here too!

A person has gotta be nuts to mess around with that sort of activity in this state,but they still do,they just make sure they "know your routine" by watching the "mark" closely for a while before making thier move.

A significant thing to note is it's not up to the cops or a judge to determine right or wrong for this,almost all use of force cases go in front of a grand jury here in Texas,and you would have to really be out of line to be indicted,and sent on to trial.

I'll include the relevant penal code for this in Texas:click thumbnail.

Bret.

[mzbk2l]

Note: Almost every state besides Michigan allows you to own a Taser.

Go to youtube and watch some of the videos of people getting knocked down with those.... might even be more fun than shooting the losers!

[musclecarlovinchick]

Originally Posted by RARON455

Well here it is, last year I had my boat stolen, and sunday morning I find this. My daughter comes over to visit and asks me if I need any help working on my truck, I say I am not working on my truck, She asks why are the wheels off. This sucks, it took me a year to pay my wheels off and I bet it only took 30 minutes to take them. You cant have nothing nowadays. I wish I could have caught them in the act.
As you can tell I have no middle ground when someone steals from a man who has to work for everything he has.

Sorry to hear that. Sadly, they will probably end up on Ebay at some point. There was a big news story about Ebay being a playground for creeps to sell stolen goods.

[goquick]

musclecarlovinchick is right about watching ebay for your wheels and tires. Here it is not uncommon for wheels, small construction equipment, radio's to get stolen, sold for pennies vs. what it's worth to a pawn shop, then get put on one of the online sites such as ebay or craigslist. A co worker I used to have was high bidder on his wheels and tires that was stolen from him. He shall we say didn't exactly pay for them the second time he bolted them on his truck. Oh, there was a knockdown drag out, but he took a couple of new century fight buddies with him.

[musclecarlovinchick]

Originally Posted by goquick

musclecarlovinchick is right about watching ebay for your wheels and tires. Here it is not uncommon for wheels, small construction equipment, radio's to get stolen, sold for pennies vs. what it's worth to a pawn shop, then get put on one of the online sites such as ebay or craigslist. A co worker I used to have was high bidder on his wheels and tires that was stolen from him. He shall we say didn't exactly pay for them the second time he bolted them on his truck. Oh, there was a knockdown drag out, but he took a couple of new century fight buddies with him.

This may sound harsh but I believe that if there was a little more of that, a few more criminals would think twice before they stepped foot on someone elses property.
Isn't it Montana that allows people to protect their property with force? I thought I had read that somewhere.

[quick67bird]

Nevada you can use lethal force protecting person or property. The law does not specify you have to be home to protect property.

Robert

[quick67bird]

WA you have to be on your property and feel threatened.

Robert

[Cliff R]

You are never right, either legally or morally to protect your personal property by using deadly force. It's the totality of the circumstances, and the elements present during your encounter with the theif that make each and every situation a completely different case.

It may be true in some states that no criminal charges could/would be filed against you, as I do remember a few years ago a car repo guy getting gunned down in Texas and no charges were brought against the car/property owner.

It is simply unreasonable to walk outside your home and gun down a couple of teenagers steeling hubcaps off your car. If no criminal charges are brought against you, you can sure bet the civil case will leave you with nothing more than the shirt on your back (if you're lucky), when it's over.

Bottom line folks, the amount of force used against anyone, anywhere, anyplace, anytime, for any reason, must ALWAYS be reasonable for the circumstances. No laws on any books will protect anyone, anyplace in this country, that I know of, from using unreasonable, or excessive force against another human being.

With all that said, when it comes to theives in particular, you had ought to be able to shoot them on sight, when they enter your property and try to remove in a few minutes what took you many months, or years to aquire with a lot of hard work.

Even though I worked within very tight guidelines, and was bound by the Use Of Force Policy in place for the Department of Homeland Security for most of my adult life, I really think that the system has many flaws. The flaws in our system are EXACTLY why outsiders were able to use American airliners as cruise missles with a great degree of success.

The laws currently in place, and the general attitude of law enforcment, and the public at large, has turned us into "sheep". At the time of 9-11, there were very few "wolves" around. I pitty the poor fool who pulls out his razor knife on an airplane these days, and screams out that he's going to take the plane over. There would be at least 50 people, if not more, kicking the living crap out of him before he could get all the words out of his mouth!.......Cliff

[Uprmich]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

....... With that said, if you chose to do the "wrong" (personally I think it's the right thing) thing, ......Cliff

Cliff, just trying to get a feel where you stand as the previous post opening sentence gives me a different impression. Absolutely no offense meant just trying to get your point of view.
Ray

[Uprmich]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

You are never right, either legally or morally to protect your personal property by using deadly force. ......Cliff

This part

[455Grandville]

An alarm system & dogs (even anklebiters) will scare most off. Ive noticed in the city of St Louis (# 1 crime city) many people have Rottweilers in the fenced in yards for a reason.

[screamingchief]

All I can comment on is the practical day to day application of the laws here in Texas,and I gotta tell you,short of shooting a jehovah's witness or such who rings your doorbell some afternoon the odds of being indicted are slim to none,and those "door-to-door" types are all smart enough to show up during the days when the law is a bit more strict here,and never after dusk.

Matter of fact a good many "property" related crimes are actually commited in broad daylight for this very reason,a high percentage of home burglaries are committed during daylight hours for this reason,and because many folks are at work as well.

There have been more than a few cases where some hapless or drunk soul would knock on some guys door acting all crazy and such at night,and guess what happend,yep,you guessed it,dead nutjob...

That one falls under the proviso of "criminal mischief" in the Texas penal code.

Do note the repeated use of the words "reasonably believe" in the penal code too.

Hard to prove to a grand jury what a person "reasonably believes",if you tell them you "reasonably believed" something,it has to be so,who's to say otherwise???

I just gotta tell ya'll,I watch all these stories in the news here,99 times out of hundred the shooter is "no-billed" and walks,and often if the victims family tries to sue,it's a hard nut to overcome the fact a grand jury gave the shoot a stamp of approval.

Like I said,you gotta be nuts to even consider fooling around with anybodies stuff at night here!!!

The fact that a person would do such a thing makes a case for "reasonably believing" there is a danger to one's self when confronting such criminals,as a criminal so bold would almost surely have to be armed as well,or crazy,and both of those are considered extremely dangerous.

Make of this what you choose,feel free to reserch this some on ya'lls own,not making this stuff up,like night and day with most other states,like my home-state of Wisconsin,which is among the strictest states for this kind of thing.

Bret.

[Cliff R]

"You are never right, either legally or morally to protect your personal property by using deadly force. ......Cliff"

In and of itself you are not allowed to protect your personal property by using deadly force. There must be other elements present during the encounter that would make the use of deadly force "reasonable". In this country, using deadly force against another human being is typically considered a last resort. The "elements" needed to justify the use of deadly force MUST be present during the situation. Basically, the person or persons that you attempt to kill, must have the Ability, Opportunity, and you must be placed in or beleive that your life or the lives of others are in Jeapardy. This doesn't mean that someone is pointing a gun at you, because in that scenario it's pretty obvious that ALL three elements are in place. In most cases, one or two elements will be in place, as in most situations the person that you encounter will have the ability (weapon or potential to inflict serious bodily injury/deadly force), opportunity (you are within range of the weapon). Being in jeapardy doesn't mean you have to be looking down a gun barrel. By their actions you must simply BELEIVE that they intend on causing you serious bodily injury and/or use are going to use deadly force against you during the encounter. This isn't always that simple to articulate, but basically, if you confront someone and they have a handgun in their wasteband, and you tell them not to move, and they reach for the weapon, by their actions you believe they are going to use it, there is no need to wait till it's pointed at you to use deadly force to stop them.

I taught Use of Force as part of my job, and Search Law, among other things, for many, many years, before retiring and starting my new business. I'll list a quick example, and there are many thousands of court cases on record, many of which have led to Supreme Court cases/decisions and re-writing/adding many laws to the books.

You are awakened in the middle of the night, peer outside, and see your truck jacked up and a couple of fella's steeling your tires. You crack the window and gun them down with your 30-06. Supposedly justified in the State of Texas? (Hardly a reasonable response, regardless of the law(s) in place.)

The same scenario, but instead of cracking the window and gunning them down, you simply open the front door and scream at them to stop stealing your tires. They run away. (Probably the most reasonable response, situation resolved at the lowest possible level.)

What amount of force was "reasonable" for the circumstances, "verbal commands" or blowing their guts all over your driveway with the 30-06? Answer this question regardless where you live and what law(s) govern the circumstances.

Third and same scenario. You open the front door, yell at them to stop stealing your tires, and one of them stands up and tells you to go "fluck yourself". Do you gun him down, or close the door and go back into the safety of your house and call Law Enforcement?

Fourth scenario, same circumstances, after telling them to stop, they stand up and approach you, one of them reaches into his pants pocket and tells you to get back in your house. Do you go back into the safety of your home, or gun them down?

Fifth and same scenario, they stand up after you tell them to stop, walk towards you and one of them pulls back his coat to display a handgun. They tell you to go back into your house. Do you gun them down, or retreat and call the authorities?

Do you see where this is going? At some you must beleive that they were going to use deadly force against you, to make the use of deadly force against them a reasonable and justifiable response.....and....just because deadly force is acceptable, reasonable or authorized, it still doesn't mean that you shouldn't retreat or put yourself out of harms way, instead of choosing to stand and fight. You can bet your ars that someone will ask you specifically why you didn't retreat and go back into the safety of your home to call Law Enforcement, instead of gunning down the theives in your driveway.

That's the way the law looks at it. You also have to remember that there is criminal law, and equally as important, civil law. Just because something you do isn't isn't a felony or against the law, doesn't mean that you can't be tried in the civil courts? And rest assured, there is very likely going to be some tree-hugging liberal in the jury who thinks that all those criminals should be rehabilitated, and you should never hurt any of them simply to protect your own property.

Personally, if some POS is STUPID enough to confront me by walking towards me after I told him to stop stealing my tires, and I'm holding my 30-06.....ending that gene pool would give me no displeasure whatsover......Cliff

[Uprmich]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

Personally, if some POS is STUPID enough to confront me by walking towards me after I told him to stop stealing my tires, and I'm holding my 30-06.....ending that gene pool would give me no displeasure whatsover......Cliff

Gotcha.

[RARON455]

That is the good thing about living here, and I agree with all If I catch someone stealing anything of mine I will shoot them, and they will not live to sue me. This statement will carry alot here in texas (It was dark I startled them and they drew back at me with something in their hand I didnt know what it was I thought I was gong to be attacked so I shot) I hope I never have to shoot anyone I dont want to take anyones life But I also dont want anyone to take my property and If you have ever been stolen from yo know that they take more than just your property, the take some security too. I also agree that if I ever catch someone in my house I will shoot them DEAD and the only regret I will have is getting blood on my carpet, That is exactly how I feel about that, I dont care what state you live in You have the right to bear arms I read that somewhere in the constitution.... thanks for all the advice on the subject..

[RARON455]

Dont get me wrong I am not some half cocked lunatic running around with a gun far from it, I have it to do what is right to protect my family from ill intentioned people, I have done all the things a man can do motion security lights, neighbors have dogs, keep my doors locked. I consider all of those preventative steps, now if a thief wants to invade my little piece of this world I will make it Clear that it will not be tolerated. As for all the responses of you who have lost things to thieving ass bastards I am sorry for you I know EXACTLY how you feel. I have been checking the pawnshops and ebay also no luck if meth heads dod it I hope they OD. It took me a year to pay off the wheels I had on my truck and they probably got them in a half hour, I know that I will never see them again, If this would have happened in a wal-mart parking lot I would not be so upset but It happened In my Driveway And that is what really sucks.

[goquick]

I look at like this; If they are stealing even a little from you, they or some of their friends will be back to steal more. A shot in the dark that they feel the burn as a result of will eliminate more thief of your property. The cowards will always say "but it was just wheels". My answer is "so what, it was just inked up paper the BANKROBBER wanted too". Small thief leads to big thief. What level are you going to stop it at ? Of, course, always fire the second shot in the air, so you can always say "I fired a warning shot".

[Region Warrior]

Last year Indiana passed a law making it ok to use deadly force if you think either you or another individual's life is in jeapordy. This was to stop wrongful death suit's from scumbag's or thier families.
You wont be prosecuted if it's justified.

Before that, my cop buddies aways said make sure it's in the front, and they are dead, so they cant sue your ass off, or come back for vengence.
And put something in thier hand before making the call.
I have no desire to kill anyone, and would try to detain them until the cops arrive.
But if it came to it, would cap'm in a heart beat...maybe the 1st one in the knee cap just for fun