[michaeld]

Tennesseestorm,

Actually, I liked those built-in antennas; you trade a little reception for a lot of hassles. And given the fact that everyone is going to iPods and satellite radios anyways, it's just as well to have the antenna out of the way.

I personally am not TOO concerned over "increased values" due to the options or lack thereof. If these cars were on everyone's "Hot List" for classic/vintage cars, I'd have a different mindset. But as it is, these Grand Villes seem to be largely ignored, and so I'd only want the options that would make my world better/easier.

I'm glad that the power door locks on these cars were so good, as I believe I recall John saying that the Grand Ville had them. My old Mercedes has power door locks that have held up pretty well, but they are vacuum operated rather than electric, and IMHO, electric would tend to be both more durable and easier to repair (no vacuum lines, diaphragms, actuators, or that sort of thing). I particularly like your description of "if the power locks fail, they can still operate manually." That is simply an example of good quality redundant engineering.

I'm pretty sure that John said that the car has power windows as well, and he told me that everything worked A-okay. I guess that's a testament to how they built these cars, isn't it?

Question: has anyone installed fuel injection on one of these 455s? How did it go? How much did it improve mileage? What unit did you use? I don't know anything about such a carberator->f.i. install, as I've never done it or even read about it. But it doesn't seem like it would entail too awful much hassle to install.

Mike

[Pontiacdaver]

Hi Mike,

Along with everyone else, welcome to the PY forums. You are getting a great car for $450. I purchased a 74 Grand Ville 4dr hdtp from the original owner for $450 last September myself (although I had $575 in transport cost too). Like your Grand Ville, it hadn't been driven much over the last 6-7 years.
I put new tires on it, gave it a complete tune up, flushed the radiator, changed all the belts, and hoses (I also had to replace the water pump, it was leaking from the weep hole), BUT it's biggest problem was the rubber lines from the fuel tank to the frame- mounted lines were dry-rotted and cracked, allowing air to be sucked in with the fuel, causing it to run rough and stall out. Since Sept., I have put on over 2500 miles, I've used up a lot of gas, but have not had any trouble with it, and it has started everyday in the 15 to -5 degree temps we've been having. All it needs to be really nice is a repaint of it's original paint. It drives, and rides as nice as any car I own, so much so that we are considering driving it to NY to visit my wife's family in April (about 750mi each way).
If I'm not crazy enough, I am picking a one-owner 76 Bonneville 4dr hdtp this weekend in Ohio. It is in nice original condition, is cheap, and no matter what, I'm not letting somebody buy it to demo-derby.
As for parts, I work for an automotive parts wholesale shipper, and haven't had any problems getting parts for it. Good luck, and enjoy, Daver

One last thing, when you get the GV, go to this site, and register it: http://www.collectorpro.com/grandvil...y/registry.htm.

BTW Eric, that Black 73 you listed for someone else sure looks like a nice car, wish I could afford that one too.

[Tennesseestorm]

Excellent to hear you are saving from the doom of a derby!

Originally Posted by Pontiacdaver

If I'm not crazy enough, I am picking a one-owner 76 Bonneville 4dr hdtp this weekend in Ohio. It is in nice original condition, is cheap, and no matter what, I'm not letting somebody buy it to demo-derby.

[Tennesseestorm]

Me too. My Grand Ville has only AM radio, but the stations tune in fine. I normally carry an FM radio with me when I drive the car. Yeah, the PDLs and PWs should be fine. They are electric on the Grand Ville as you mentioned. My 69' Caprice has vacuum powered locks, but amazingly they still work fine as well. I also have a 85' Mercedes S-Class, again, with vacuum powered locks, but they still work fine too, as does my windows. Lucky I suppose.

Originally Posted by michaeld

Tennesseestorm,

Actually, I liked those built-in antennas; you trade a little reception for a lot of hassles. And given the fact that everyone is going to iPods and satellite radios anyways, it's just as well to have the antenna out of the way.

I'm glad that the power door locks on these cars were so good, as I believe I recall John saying that the Grand Ville had them. My old Mercedes has power door locks that have held up pretty well, but they are vacuum operated rather than electric, and IMHO, electric would tend to be both more durable and easier to repair (no vacuum lines, diaphragms, actuators, or that sort of thing). I particularly like your description of "if the power locks fail, they can still operate manually." That is simply an example of good quality redundant engineering.

I'm pretty sure that John said that the car has power windows as well, and he told me that everything worked A-okay. I guess that's a testament to how they built these cars, isn't it?

Question: has anyone installed fuel injection on one of these 455s? How did it go? How much did it improve mileage? What unit did you use? I don't know anything about such a carberator->f.i. install, as I've never done it or even read about it. But it doesn't seem like it would entail too awful much hassle to install.

Mike

[455Grandville]

One thing I did to keep the power windows working well, remove the interior door panels, clean the tracks and oil them. Made a huge difference. If you have to replace the clear plastic in the doors you can get that at a landscaping shop.
Next time anyone here is at Wally World (Wal Mart) The 7ups is in the 5.50 DVD bin.

[Pontiacdaver]

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

Next time anyone here is at Wally World (Wal Mart) The 7ups is in the 5.50 DVD bin.

That isn't a bad movie, except for them using the engine soundtrack from the Bullitt chase scene for the Ventura. Does everyone know that they used a Ford GT-40 racecar for the Mustang's engine sounds in Bullitt?

Daver

[Pontiacdaver]

Originally Posted by Tennesseestorm

Excellent to hear you are saving from the doom of a derby!

Thanks Tony. It really isn't in bad shape, it's just the price would have attracted the derby crowd. I'll post some pics once I get it home. Daver

P.S. I don't have anything against derbys.....as long as they don't destroy Pontiacs!

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Pontiacdaver

That isn't a bad movie, except for them using the engine soundtrack from the Bullitt chase scene for the Ventura. Does everyone know that they used a Ford GT-40 racecar for the Mustang's engine sounds in Bullitt?

Daver

I just happened to see the movie on TV this last weekend and noticed the sound track as well. The bad guy in the Grand Ville was the same person who drove the Charger in Bullitt. They did edit the sound so there wasn't any of the GT-40 gear changes (when I first saw Bullitt, I was wondering why McQueen was double clutching that Mustang. )

[Pontiacdaver]

Yeah, I noticed it was the same guy too, just a few years older, longer hair and those 70s sideburns....lol.
I saw another movie from the same era, they used the Bullitt soundtrack for it too, just can't remember what it was.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by Pontiacdaver

That isn't a bad movie, except for them using the engine soundtrack from the Bullitt chase scene for the Ventura. Does everyone know that they used a Ford GT-40 racecar for the Mustang's engine sounds in Bullitt?

Daver

I think the same guy drove both the Charger & Grandville. Ive also noticed similarites between the 7ups & French connection -

[michaeld]

Pontiacdaver,

Sounds to me like you've saved both that Grand Ville and this Bonneville from certain death. I hope they both run well for you to show their appreciation. I'm glad to hear that you've got the Grand Ville to the point of trusting it.
I think I already came across that registration link, and planned to use it. I'll click on it and see if I can ID your car.

I genuinely believe that "my" Pontiac is in outstanding condition, save for possible hidden issues such as a partially blocked radiator or fuel lines. I believe the car is in excellent condition because John believes it; and he is both absolutely trustworthy and mechanically astute. Frankly, if I didn't think the car was in extremely good shape, I wouldn't be interested in it. I admire people who love to fully restore old cars, but that's not my ballgame. I just want to buy something that runs great and keep it running great. Now all I need to do is get my hands on it!

Tennesseestorm,
Good to hear I'm not the only Mercedes guy who also appreciates American cars; most folk tend to like one or the other. I think it will be interesting to compare the Pontiac to my Mercedes 450SEL 6.9. Like I said, they have similar performance specs.

On the topic of vacuum vs. electric, I choose electric. It is an interesting discussion whether one is better than the other, but I simply find it easier to locate voltage drops than vacuum leaks. Or, to put it another way, I would rather tingle than suck.

I'm pretty sure that John mentioned that the Grand Ville has AM/FM. I don't remember whether it had 8-track or cassette or anything. I believe it is has the OEM unit, but I could be wrong there.

Don't know anything about 7ups. I take it has a Grand Ville in it? I'll have to watch it.

[Tennesseestorm]

Yeah, I actually have old American cars, the German car (Mercedes) and a Japanese truck (Toyota). I like some out of all of makes. My MB is old and getting worn out though. It has 270K and in need of a complete tune-up.

If your car has power windows, power locks and FM radio options, it is likely a higher optioned car. Not too many had FM radios and I have noticed a trend that the FM models seem to be higher optioned. My car has power windows, power locks, AM radio, tilt wheel, A/C, "custom" interior option (which I think added cut-pile carpeting, front seatback handle, etc), lower door courtesy lights, map lights, vinyl top, bumper gaurds, bumper strips, side protective moldings and I have added the "deluxe" finned wheelcovers, but I think I am going to switch them back.

The 7-Ups movie... yeah, there is a big "chase" scene in it, where a "then" brand new 73' Grand Ville gets beaten to bits during the chase. I have this movie. As 455Grandville mentioned, its at Wal-Mart. I think mine was something like $4.95 though.? Anyway, I took some photos of this chase during the movie and posted them here on the "Pontiacs in movies" thread in the lobby. Here is the exact post I posted there, so here is a "sneak peek" of the chase. You really need to get the movie. If you like the Grand Villes, this scene will make you cringe. This was a brand new, highly optioned Grand Ville. Note it has the fairly rare cornering lights as well:

"Well, this is the movie "Seven-Ups" I was talking about before... I am sure many here are aware of the movie. Here are the scenes as they unfold.... destroying a then "BRAND NEW" 1973 Grand Ville. Notice it has the rare cornering lights option, as well as that very nice dark (and rare) blue color. I cringe when I watch this scene, as I own a 73' Grand Ville as well, but its the "classic 70s" brown.

Please be patient... alot of photos on this post..... Sorry of the low quality... I had to take them of my TV screen. (These photos do not overload the site do they? If so, I can just change them to links....

(I am not even sure, it is even legal to post photos of scenes of movies on the internet? Should be, I bought the movie... lol). Some of you may know this movie well... If so... sorry for all of the photos... to those of you that have not- go to Wal-mart and purchase it for only $4.95.

I love it, because it has alot of old cars in it. Its obvious that Pontiac supplied the new cars in this 1973 film.

Anyway, here is that 73' Catalina 4dr hdtp I was talking about. It has the "upgraded" interior, as well as auto-climate control A/C. Unusual for the Catalina..... Also, notice that the Catalina has wider whitewalls on the tires, than the Grand Ville does.... also the Grand Ville has 4-season A/C, as opposed to the auto-climate control.



(this was when the car was going through the automatic carwash)


This interior looks very much like the base Bonneville interior. For all I know, they may have used a Bonneville for the interior shots, but I doubt it.

Now, here is the following scene that hurts me.... they demolish a then "BRAND NEW" 73' Grand Ville.... in my most favorite color on these cars. I will post in order that the car sees its fate.... note it is highly optioned and also has the cornering lights:
Here it is coming out of the garage at a high rate of speed.... OUCH!







Its already lost one fenderskirt.....
Also, notice it has the rear swaybar.... obviously has the "handling" option as well, but still looks like its leaning quite a bit.













This is the last frame that the Grand Ville is seen:
As you can see, she took a beating.... I cringe everytime I watch this scene. :crazy:

And the fate of the "new" Ventura:

Originally Posted by michaeld

Tennesseestorm,
Good to hear I'm not the only Mercedes guy who also appreciates American cars; most folk tend to like one or the other. I think it will be interesting to compare the Pontiac to my Mercedes 450SEL 6.9. Like I said, they have similar performance specs.

On the topic of vacuum vs. electric, I choose electric. It is an interesting discussion whether one is better than the other, but I simply find it easier to locate voltage drops than vacuum leaks. Or, to put it another way, I would rather tingle than suck.

I'm pretty sure that John mentioned that the Grand Ville has AM/FM. I don't remember whether it had 8-track or cassette or anything. I believe it is has the OEM unit, but I could be wrong there.

Don't know anything about 7ups. I take it has a Grand Ville in it? I'll have to watch it.

[455Grandville]

Originally Posted by michaeld

Pontiacdaver,



Tennesseestorm,
Good to hear I'm not the only Mercedes guy who also appreciates American cars; most folk tend to like one or the other. I think it will be interesting to compare the Pontiac to my Mercedes 450SEL 6.9. Like I said, they have similar performance specs.
Don't know anything about 7ups. I take it has a Grand Ville in it? I'll have to watch it.

I think they had a 6.9 Mercedes in Ronin , chasing some Peugeots & Citroen.
That movie had one of the best car chases ever.

[michaeld]

455Grandville,
Yeah, I was scrolling down, looking at Tennesse's pics, and just about to write, "Yeah, there's a movie with a brown 6.9 in it called "Ronin" that has a pretty good chase scene in it. But then you had to go and steal all my thunder. At least they didn't destroy the 6.9 in that movie. It was really kind of a dumb movie; good car chase, though.

Mine is a '77 US market car. It's rated at 250 hp and 360 ft/lbs. Do those specs sound familiar to anyone? I'm really looking forward to driving the Grand Ville and seeing how the two cars compare to each other.

Thanks for posting the pics, Tennessee, just because they give me another look - or two - at the Grand Ville. It's quite a pretty car. I really like its lines.

I remember doing an experiment some time ago. I was over at my brother's house, and my sister in law asked me to help her take their 64 T-bird in for service. I followed her in their brand-spanking-new top-of-the-line Infinity. I did an experiment: I paid close attention to how many people "noticed" me or the car. We drove a good 10 miles on city streets, so plenty of opportunities to be noticed. Guess what? Nobody noticed. A brand new, $50,000 plus car, and nobody cared.

Well, the next time I was over, I got a chance to drive the T-bird. Did the same experiment. EVERYONE checked out that car. It's a REAL pretty car; it's placed well in a few car shows (even though it's a daily driver, and not one that gets towed from show to show). I think a LOT of people buy new cars thinking they will get noticed, and nobody gives a flat-damn about them or their dime-a-dozen cars (even expensive sporty and luxury models seem to be a dime a dozen).

Old cars have character, personality, and class that new cars simply don't match. They also offer durability: does anybody seriously think any of today's new cars will still be on the road 30-40 years from now?

In any event, I'm looking forward to comparing German and American engineering. The Germans certainly had an advantage: a new 450SEL 6.9 sold for the equivalent of about five fully equipped Cadillacs. It's actually the most comfortable car I've ever driven - old OR new. I'll be surprised if the Grand Ville matches the comfort (the relationship between the seat and the wheel, the glide of the suspension, etc.). But I'll be disappointed if the Pontiac powertrain doesn't compare favorably.

I'm guessing the Pontiac was geared more toward lower end performance, while the Mercedes was geared toward higher (it advertises a top speed of near 150 mph, though I've never even TRIED to come close to that). While I don't expect the Grand Ville to go quite that fast, I DO expect it to have a pretty darned fair lower end.

I wasn't all that interested in the option package until Tennesseestorm brought it up. Now I'd like to know. I'll quiz John the next time I talk to him.
Mike

[455Grandville]

Supposedly the earlier 6.3s would make it to 135 - 140 mph range. The 6.9 is a bored out 6.3 (liners, really) I think it was about 250 hp, which wasnt bad for the 70s. You might want to subscribe to Hemmings Sports & Exotic Car magazine.

[michaeld]

455Grandville,

The 6.3s are magnificent - and have one of the most visually beautiful engines I've ever seen (though I admit I haven't seen a great many engines).

Here's a link and a brief quote from that link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_450SEL_6.9

Autobahn cruiser versus race track

Top speed was factory-rated at 140 mph (225 km/h), but some journalists testing the car saw speeds approaching 150 mph (241 km/h). Among those journalists was Brock Yates. Yates was approached by the factory to write promotional literature about the 6.9. He agreed, but under the condition that he could list the car's faults as well as its positives. Daimler-Benz agreed in turn, and Yates was given a US-spec 6.9 to drive from Manhattan to the Road Atlanta grand prix race track in Georgia.

I've actually got some of the lit advertising 150mph, but didn't want to go to the trouble of scanning it and posting it.

In any event, the 6.9s were very fast cars considering that most cars had gotten REAL slow by then, and featured a high top speed. As for how fast mine is, I'll never know; I strive to drive the speed limit. My real measure of performance is getting past other cars in traffic to get into the right or left lane when I need to. The other is going up hills and being able to "kick it."

I got my Mercedes in an incredibly lucky stroke. It did not have the 6.9 trunk badge (which was an option for the 6.9, though it could also have fallen off or something), and the seller didn't do his homework. I initially thought it was a 4.5L version, but as I tried to buy parts, several didn't match up. I looked up the VIN, and whadya know? To be honest with you, it was a pretty darn good deal even for a 4.5L model.

The car turned out to be a one-owner medical doctor's car, save for the (most likely a broker) who bought and sold it in a quick turnover. All the service records were in the trunk.

One of the reasons I wanted to get my hands on the Pontiac is so I wouldn't put too many miles on the 6.9. Another issue is the fact that, while the 6.9 has hydropneumatic suspension, it is rather costly to maintain.

Oh, wait a minute. This is a PONTIAC forum, isn't it?

The 455 engine sounds like it would be ridiculously easy to build up compared to the 6.9. It would be VERY expensive to do much upgrading on the 6.9. The other thing about the 455 in the Grand Ville is the fact that you'all tell me it has a roomy compartment; the 6.9L in the 450SEL engine compartment is very tight, with even routine maintenance becoming an adventure.

[455Grandville]

6.3's biggest fault is if the air suspension needs work - dumptruck full of $ to fix. Ive ridden in a 300SD, similar body to the 6.9, but with a 5 cylinder turbodiesel. Ive always wanted to get a old Mercedes Unimog to go out in the deep woods to haul firewood back to my house, but they aint' cheap.
You'll find a 455 is a simple, durable engine that will withstand alot more abuse then any new car. With simple mods you can get alot more power out of it easily.

[Pontiacdaver]

I agree, you can't beat German engineering, but I think you'll find the Pontiac to be a fairly well engineered car. I think it may be quicker than the Mercedes at the lower end (I know my GV is surprisingly quick from 10-70mph). I doubt it has as much top end, but it will probably have more than you'll use.....I'd guess it could get up to 120+, I've never tried in mine. Either way, you are getting a great car, at a steal of a price. Welcome to the Darksiders.
Can't wait to see pictures. Daver

[michaeld]

Originally Posted by michaeld

455Grandville,

Mine is a '77 US market car. It's rated at 250 hp and 360 ft/lbs. Do those specs sound familiar to anyone? I'm really looking forward to driving the Grand Ville and seeing how the two cars compare to each other.

In any event, I'm looking forward to comparing German and American engineering. The Germans certainly had an advantage: a new 450SEL 6.9 sold for the equivalent of about five fully equipped Cadillacs. It's actually the most comfortable car I've ever driven - old OR new. I'll be surprised if the Grand Ville matches the comfort (the relationship between the seat and the wheel, the glide of the suspension, etc.). But I'll be disappointed if the Pontiac powertrain doesn't compare favorably.

I'm guessing the Pontiac was geared more toward lower end performance, while the Mercedes was geared toward higher (it advertises a top speed of near 150 mph, though I've never even TRIED to come close to that). While I don't expect the Grand Ville to go quite that fast, I DO expect it to have a pretty darned fair lower end.

Pontiacdaver,
I just quoted myself to state that what you think is what I'm hoping. You've got such similar specs, and the 6.9 is obviously geared to be a top-end beast. Me, I've always loved low-end power. I don't USE high-end stuff; my tach never GETS to 4,000 rpm. Let me have the power where I'll actually use it, thank you very much.

455Grandville,
Yeah, those 6.3s are magnificent, but I've read they can be touchy. You DON'T want one unless you can afford to keep it happy (rather like a beautiful, fashion-oriented woman). The diesel w116s were actually often selling for MORE than the 6.9s, though the better gas prices has changed that a bit. Bio-diesel potential.

I've never put the 6.9 badge on the trunk for the same reason I would probably not put a "455" badge on the Grand Ville: I wouldn't want someone to target my car for theft just for the engine (I've had 2 cars stolen, and rather hate it when that happens). The 5 cylinder Mercedes diesels are durable - and even strong after about 40 mph - but they are dogs getting up to speed. Some of the earlier diesels are downright dangerous to drive in traffic.

BTW, some VERY good news for mikey. I had a call on my machine from John. When I called him back, he told me that he was going to Walla Walla next Thursday. We will be towing a 1925 Dodge back that he DID buy after all, and then towing my new Grand Ville back.

It works out beautifully. A woman who works in John's wife's doctor's office got the idea that she might ask John to bring a truck back to the desert that is currently in Walla Walla. Their son was driving it when the transmission blew, and he left the truck in Walla Walla. The folks had the tranny rebuilt. John initially intended to tow the truck back (and I'd follow in the Pontiac), but it turns out (such a shame!) that the truck is too big to fit on any standard trailer available from U Haul. So I will drive the truck back, and John will tow the Grand Ville.

John was in a bit of a hurry, so I didn't pester him with any car questions (plenty of time to do that during the drive, I figure). He told me two items: 1) that when he bought the car, he noticed what appeared to be a little mold on the WHITE vinyl top, that completely came out when he dealt with it. The top has looked nice since; 2) that the air duct (that thingy that's made out of slinky metal and cloth that brings outside air to the engine) has worn out. Otherwise, he says, the car looks nice and drives beautifully.

I of course said the deal was off, and I didn't want the car - well, NOT!

Since the woman will be paying for the fuel, my part is only to be a driver. So yeah, that $450 figure will be about it (plus a few meals, but a guy's gotta eat!). As for those immediate maintenance items - battery, tires - they are quite new, and not an issue.

So you can picture me walking around looking like that cat with a bunch of canary feathers sticking out of its mouth.

Don't worry, fellow travelers; once I get this car back and detailed a little bit, I will be posting pics of the interior, exterior, and engine (and more if I feel like crawling around).

The funny thing about buying this Grand Ville is that my 6.9 will suddenly become my compact, economy car (it's a foot and a half shorter and gets a little over 12 mpg).

So there it is. Happy happy.
Mike

[Tennesseestorm]

Thats one reason I like my 85' 380SE over the 86' 560SEL, is that mine has standard struts, yet the car has a soft and supple ride- actually floaty at highway speeds. Beginning in 86' Mercedes switched over to air suspension on the 560SEL's. The 420SEL's retained standard suspension in 86'.

Originally Posted by 455Grandville

6.3's biggest fault is if the air suspension needs work - dumptruck full of $ to fix. Ive ridden in a 300SD, similar body to the 6.9, but with a 5 cylinder turbodiesel. Ive always wanted to get a old Mercedes Unimog to go out in the deep woods to haul firewood back to my house, but they aint' cheap.
You'll find a 455 is a simple, durable engine that will withstand alot more abuse then any new car. With simple mods you can get alot more power out of it easily.