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md1twal3 · 06-23-2005, 05:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nathaniel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
You probably ought to step back on the car knowledge gig...I don't have to disassemble a rusty POS to know how it goes together. I have a degree for auto technology, 10 years of franchise dealership time and numerous other rustorations under my belt over the past 25 years that I have been associated with cars.....I am sure I am not alone, either. yes...RUSTorations. I have replaced all panels with aftermarket, I have clipped cars (66 Caddy), and I have patched and mudded. They look nice when done, but there is a EASIER and CHEAPER way to do it RIGHT.....REBODY.

You used several structural aftermarket panels right?....they are not unique to a GTO are they? Nope...they will fit Chevelle, Lemans, Tempest, Olds Cutlass, right? How is that any better or "the right way" to restore a GTO over taking a GM stamped part, that is already welded in?

So you use parts that are not original to your GTO or GM, plus you have non-original welds and seams....How is that "the right way to restore" a car, as opposed to using a GM made (and assembled)body?

It isn't just about the "easy way" out. It is about quality and cost too. You act like there is DNA in the metal or something that ties the body to the vin... They are just mass produced panels, that have a unique number, affixed with mass produced rivets (and easily available too).

I have seen what many of you call "clones" (a.k.a. body swaps) done by reporatble restoration shops, and I don't care what any of the "experts" say....you cannot tell....hidden vins and all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When did I impune your integrety on automotive knowledge? Did I say you did not have any knowledge on automotive restoration? Did I state the right or wrong way to replace a body panel? Did I state the right or wrong way to weld the panel in? No. We are discussing if it is right or wrong to swap vin tags and I was simply pointing out benifits to my point of view. I am sorry that you think it is correct to swap vin plates.

Before you start putting words in my mouth I think that you should take time to read the topic at respond with an educated answer. You may have plenty of automotive knowledge, but could use some reading and comprehensive eduction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I have a pretty good grasp about what this topic is about. Read through EVERY post I entered and see if I anywhere supported a VIN removal and reinstall....hmmm...who needs a course or two in reading and comprehensive eduction.

My point about my education (and I also referred to other people having the same or more...if YOU read my posts carefully)is that you sort of implied that in order to understand how a car is put together, you need to take it apart. My point.....many of us have been through that already, many times, and would prefer an easier, quicker and less expensive way to do it.

To clarify....I am not flinging insults, looking for an arguement, or implying that what I propose is the most correct method of restoration. I am simply implying that there is no good reason that a rebody (again...doesn't imply a VIN tag swap)should be as acceptible as a restoration with aftermarket or NOS parts...Either method should be well documented and not misrepresented...

SWEETJUDGE · 06-23-2005, 05:17 AM

thats great

SWEETJUDGE · 06-23-2005, 05:21 AM

to go to jail to save a car, hobby, whatever
while the rich buy themselves out of jail.

dont the POLICE have BETTER things to do, like catch drug dealers,robbers,rapists.

im sorry but this country is truely screwed.
everything unfortunately money orientated. EVERYTHING IS EXPENSIVE, so we have to do what we can to survive. Our tax dollars support THEM not help us.

SWEETJUDGE · 06-23-2005, 05:22 AM

THIS IS GETTING UGLY
sorry to dig up a can of worms

Johnp · 06-23-2005, 05:38 AM

Very interesting thread, I wonder how many dash panels that were rusted or damaged beyond repair have been replaced by reputable body shops? With the full knowledge of reputable insurance companies? Isn't that part of the reason for the hidden vin #. I would have to think it has been done before, and there would also have to be a legal way to do it. If not, why would the VIN # on the dash panel be installed with rivets?
Just a thought, and another opinion. Ok go I'm ready for the bashing, I have my hard hat on.

SWEETJUDGE · 06-23-2005, 05:48 AM

good point why arent the vins welded??? or directly stamped into the sheetmetal???

im sure 36 years ago no one thought these cars would be where they are today, a better investment than stocks & property.

no one knew or even thought it would be like this

69lm69gp · 06-23-2005, 05:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">dont the POLICE have BETTER things to do, like catch drug dealers,robbers,rapists. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What like catch car thieves that steal a car, swap the VIN, and then sell the car? People there IS a reason why swapping VIN's is illegal, and it is not so the police can hassle car enthusiasts.

SWEETJUDGE · 06-23-2005, 06:01 AM

i just think there are better things for the police to be doing & i think it should be buyer beware or buyer be aware

knowledge is key

i know of some very rare MOPARS worth big BUX, & i know for a fact that they have been made up of 4-5 cars to complete these cars.They are registerd cars & cant even drive them cause evryone follows you home to see where you live & whats in the garage

weather its right or wrong they are out there

cat tracker · 06-23-2005, 06:14 AM

The reason a vin tag is put on with special rivits instead of welding is a trap. The frame has the same number permanently stamped into the frame and hidden. When you pop the rivits this makes it easy for Law Enforcement to make and file a case. You ask why Law Enforcement don't have better things to do like chasing drug dealers, armed robbers, and rapists? I can speak from experience and say that drug dealers, armed robbers and rapists don't take kindly to be arrested and in most cases shoot first. Consequently the Law Enforcement of today looks for "Sitting Ducks" who don't shoot back. - Dwight Sr.

SWEETJUDGE · 06-23-2005, 06:24 AM

your absolutly right
my biz was robbed memorial day weekend, when the police arrived they were afraid to go into my shop

NOT LIKE COPS ON TV
my tax dollars hard at work

Hearseman · 06-23-2005, 06:33 AM

I read this whole post, and I must say it makes some interesting reading. I am of the idea that swapping a BODY (as a replacement part) into another frame is a viable option. I am not saying swap the VINs from a GTO onto a Tempest and say it's a GTO. I am saying swap the body panels, in this case the biggest body panel, and keeping the rest of the car, frame engine, trans orginal it is still a GTO.
The legalities I am not sure of, but there must be some stipulation in the law that allows for removing VINs and replacing them on new panels. I work in a body shop and replace alot of body panels. We haven't had to replace a cowl yet. But with the cost of new cars and the insurance companies trying not to total cars, it is just a matter of time. So if we get a hard hit in the driver's side cowl on a $40,000 car or truck and it needs to be replaced, how does a shop go about doing this while remaining within the law? And I bet the insurance company would allow for a used replacement cowl too. And if it can be done legally, why can it not be done on a restoration?

rzrektd · 06-23-2005, 06:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dwight Crawford:
The reason a vin tag is put on with special rivits instead of welding is a trap. The frame has the same number permanently stamped into the frame and hidden. When you pop the rivits this makes it easy for Law Enforcement to make and file a case. You ask why Law Enforcement don't have better things to do like chasing drug dealers, armed robbers, and rapists? I can speak from experience and say that drug dealers, armed robbers and rapists don't take kindly to be arrested and in most cases shoot first. Consequently the Law Enforcement of today looks for "Sitting Ducks" who don't shoot back. - Dwight Sr. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think they also stamped the s/n on the body on the 66 on the main b pillar support under the factory qtr panel / roof seam. I could be wrong because I didnt match the stamped numbers I found to my vin tag. What else would they be used for?

leecorrell · 06-23-2005, 06:59 AM

If this were about saving classic cars from the crusher, then there would be no questions about vin swapping. If you have 2 cars to start with - one rusty gto and one rust free lemans, and this was about saving cars from the crusher, then when you were done you would still have 2 cars. One restored gto and one restored lemans. If you use a lemans body to restore a rusty gto, what happens to the lemans? Killing one car to save another is not about preserving classics, its about money. When someone wants to swap a vin, they are wanting to create a more valuable car. If the GTO were the rust free shell and the lemans was a complete numbers matching rusted out pile, no one would think twice about parting out the lemans to rebuild the gto. Would anyone want to remove the vin plate from the rust free gto shell and replace it with the vin from the rusted out lemans to recreate the number matching lemans? No, because the gto would be more valuable. Thus it is about deception and money. There is no other reason to swap a vin. Why does the rusty car have more of a right to live than the rust free car - the only answer is because of value.

colonelreb · 06-23-2005, 07:00 AM

From this discussion does it mean that the Ram Air IV Judge body and frame that I have (with missing VIN and data plate) is actually worth something?

matrix · 06-23-2005, 07:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWEETJUDGE:
your absolutly right
my biz was robbed memorial day weekend, when the police arrived they were afraid to go into my shop

NOT LIKE COPS ON TV
my tax dollars hard at work </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok so now this has turned into a "Cops Suck" thread? Why? Because you are mad that you cant do an illegal VIN swap? So take it out on the men and women that put their lives on the line for you everyday.

TJH · 06-23-2005, 07:41 AM

I fgind it interesting that Dwight, who is retired from law enforcement, would be so utterly clueles about the realities in today's legal system.
Look no further than the OJ Simpson case, or the latest Michael Jackson case, and you will clearly see that MONEY bends the law ALL of the time.
You say it yourself- that the police are not really interested in nailing the drug dealers/murderers/rapists/etc, but would rather go after easy targets. But- it's not just that these criminals tend to shoot back- it's also for the simple fact that prosecuting them COSTS money, whereas raking an otherwise upstanding, tax paying citizen through the legal mud will PROFIT the system. We see it every day here in Detroit- the cops cruise right on by the crack dealers, prostitutes, gun-carrying gang-bangers, etc., and whip out their ticket books to write tickets to Chrysler engineers parked near work. Why? Because the employed, tax-paying, law-abiding engineer will pay the fine, whereas the crack whore will be a drain on the system. Truly pathetic, and worse yet that you appear to notice some of this, but yet fail to make the obvious connections.
As for body swaps, I can only say that I would MUCH rather have a rust-free original factory assembled and welded LeMans body replacing that on a rusted GTO, than to have a patchwork quilt of unknown weld quality and questionable structural integrity. Throwing huge sums of money and time at a rustbucket, creating a frankenstein monster of indeterminate or questionable quality, simply does not make sense. Thump your chests and proudly proclaim that you resurrected a rusted "original" GTO all you want, but the final result will still be a non-original, pieced-together turd.

md1twal3 · 06-23-2005, 08:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lee Correll:
If this were about saving classic cars from the crusher, then there would be no questions about vin swapping. If you have 2 cars to start with - one rusty gto and one rust free lemans, and this was about saving cars from the crusher, then when you were done you would still have 2 cars. One restored gto and one restored lemans. If you use a lemans body to restore a rusty gto, what happens to the lemans? Killing one car to save another is not about preserving classics, its about money. When someone wants to swap a vin, they are wanting to create a more valuable car. If the GTO were the rust free shell and the lemans was a complete numbers matching rusted out pile, no one would think twice about parting out the lemans to rebuild the gto. Would anyone want to remove the vin plate from the rust free gto shell and replace it with the vin from the rusted out lemans to recreate the number matching lemans? No, because the gto would be more valuable. Thus it is about deception and money. There is no other reason to swap a vin. Why does the rusty car have more of a right to live than the rust free car - the only answer is because of value. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lee - this is actually a good point BUT, I think if you ask a majority, if money and value were no object, not a consideration...which a-body optioned vehicle would you prefer to own, a GTO or a Lemans...what are you going to pick, and why? (Again, a majority will say GTO...I am pretty sure).

Same sheet metal, right? Same body style, right? Then why a GTO over a Lemans? DESIRE for the GTO Options! Again...what differintiates the two? the VIN & the options associated with the VIN...not the metal. I think that for most that are building a keeper, DESIRE drives the value....Value doesn't drive the desire.

md1twal3 · 06-23-2005, 08:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by colonelreb:
From this discussion does it mean that the Ram Air IV Judge body and frame that I have (with missing VIN and data plate) is actually worth something? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

VERY good question. My response, based on what I am supporting....you have no value in the a-body metal that was once tagged as a Judge. It is an A-BODY parts car.

How about one of you folks opposing my thoughts answer this one? Does he still have a GTO here?????

md1twal3 · 06-23-2005, 08:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by matrix:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWEETJUDGE:
your absolutly right
my biz was robbed memorial day weekend, when the police arrived they were afraid to go into my shop

NOT LIKE COPS ON TV
my tax dollars hard at work </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok so now this has turned into a "Cops Suck" thread? Why? Because you are mad that you cant do an illegal VIN swap? So take it out on the men and women that put their lives on the line for you everyday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Personally, I don't blame the law...it is what it is, regardless of whether or not it is enforced, and why. BUT...I do think that the Law itself could and should be challenged on this topic. I also believe that it could probably be changed, with enough support. This ought to tell you that value isn't a factor (to me anyway), the cars and my passion for keeping great cars on the road is my driver. If this LAW were changed, there would be a lot more classics out there, probably driving the overall market value down...

My support is more from the ethical stand point. I feel that my idea of a rebody (again, not implying that any laws be broken) is as an ethical (including quality of the end result)as the one who choses to cut, patch and weld to restore a car.

cat tracker · 06-23-2005, 08:24 AM

.

I hope this long post will clear up some of the issues here.

In the 1980's I was collecting Pontiacs and found several, (7 as I recall) in an old salvage yard. I bought them all. Most of them were just rollers with no motors or transmission. Some had titles some didn't but I got a Bill of Sale for all of them. One in particular was interesting as the vin had been removed but the trim tag was still there. The body had no dum-dum and the battery had been relocated in the trunk. The body has some rust especially around the rear wheel openings. This had been caused by using a "Bleach Box" to do burn outs. I started sanding on the car and noticed that it had racing stripes down the hood, roof, and trunk. About the same time I saw a advertisement that a rare Pontiac was being offered for sale in the immediate area. I viewed the car for sale and took photographs. The dealer said the car had just been sold and was going up north to a collector. I returned home and contacted National Auto Theft Bureau and requested that they come to my home and pull the "hidden number" off the frame and document it. They came and pulled the number and I told them about the "fake" that had been sold. They went immediately to the owner of the "fake" and asked to inspect the vin number on the door jam. They matched the vin number(metal tag) off the fake to the frame and car I had sitting at my house. The owner of the fake confessed and told them that he had taken a "granny car" that was rust free and an easy restoration and pulled the vin number off the real car and made a clone. He was given the opportunity to remove the vin tag which he wisely did. This option is not available now as I understand it.
I loaded the real car on a trailer and took it to MVD. They took
photographs, pulled the number off the frame again, took all my documentation and the documentatin of the NATB and put an assigned vin number on the door jam. They put the original vin number on the car. A very reputable collector bought both cars and spent a lot of money restoring the real car. The car that you see today at POCI Conventions is the real car. It is worth a lot of money and will continue to appreciate.

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