#1  
Old 05-18-2022, 08:51 AM
Mwieczorek Mwieczorek is offline
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Default Torque Converter Recommendation?

Hi all,

I'm getting ready to do an engine swap, and I figure this is the time to swap converters if needed.

The car is a 1966 Bonneville. It is currently a 389/4bbl, and it is really tired. It's a TH400, and it had 2.56:1 gears, but I'm in the finishing stages of installing a new rear axle with a limited slip diff and 3.08:1 gears (I know, not great, but 65-70 Pontiac B body rear ends are not exactly common). Curb weight should be just over 4000 lbs, with me in the driver seat call it 4250. Tires are currently 225/70R15, probably can't go much bigger without getting custom offset wheels.

The new engine is a 400 with the following specs:

1970 XH code block, .030" over, not zero decked
L2262F30 forged pistons on reconditioned stock rods with ARP bolts
13 heads, rebuilt with new valves and guides
The cam is a Wolverine Blue Racer, 224/234 @ 0.050, .465/.488 lift, 112 LSA.
in a previous thread I think we determined the compression ratio should be around 9.5:1.
Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold (I have a plain Performer and a stock cast iron 4 barrel manifold too if either of those would work better)
Exhaust will be B body Ram Air manifolds from RARE with a 2.5" exhaust with X pipe.

The car will primarily be driven on the street, but I will probably take it to the drag strip a couple times a summer. I know it's not going to be an eye popping fast car. It's heavy and my gear ratio is not all that favorable.

Given all of this, what converter do you guys recommend?

Thanks!

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Matt Wieczorek
1966 Bonneville Hardtop Coupe (family cruiser that we take to car shows)
1967 GTO hardtop, 400HO, 4 speed (don't ask, its a basket case)
1973 Grand Prix SJ (currently doing a rolling restoration)

Trying to find that "sweet spot" between Roadkill and Concours d'Elegance

Last edited by Mwieczorek; 05-18-2022 at 08:57 AM.
  #2  
Old 05-18-2022, 09:03 AM
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25stevem 25stevem is offline
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Even before we talk about converters let’s get the engine to live and not beat itself apart!

The stock valve installed height of 67 and up D port 400 heads heads will not accept .488” lift without cutting the tops of the valve guides down a good amount or running longer valves.

On to the cam , the factory never used a cam like your thinking of running duration wise without atleast 3.55 gears and a dead on 10 to one compression or a tad better.

I would rethink your cam and with only 3.08 gears and 4000 lbs go with no more then a converter with 2200 stall.

You will want a separate trans cooler also,

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Last edited by 25stevem; 05-18-2022 at 09:10 AM.
  #3  
Old 05-18-2022, 09:30 AM
Mwieczorek Mwieczorek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 25stevem View Post
Even before we talk about converters let’s get the engine to live and not beat itself apart!

The stock valve installed height of 67 and up D port 400 heads heads will not accept .488” lift without cutting the tops of the valve guides down a good amount or running longer valves.

On to the cam , the factory never used a cam like your thinking of running duration wise without atleast 3.55 gears and a dead on 10 to one compression or a tad better.

I would rethink your cam and with only 3.08 gears and 4000 lbs go with no more then a converter with 2200 stall.

You will want a separate trans cooler also,
Thanks! The valve guides were cut down and positive seals were installed. This is not a "brand new" engine. It has a couple thousand miles on it already. It also has a set of Comp Cams valve springs (CCA-988-16) and retainers (CCA-743-16).

The engine is already together and works... I'm kind of hesitant to swap the cam, simply because it seems all we hear about anymore are flat tappet camshaft and lifter failures and I really don't want to risk sending bits of metal through my engine because I got a bum lifter. If I do swap cams it will only be with a hydraulic roller.

I'm on the waiting list for the next run of 3.55:1 gears for Pontiac B body axles from Fabcraft... If they ever make another run that is.

Sadly, AFTER I bought this axle and spent a bunch of money on getting it up to snuff, a 3.42:1 limited slip axle shows up on the forum.

If money was no object I would buy a wide ratio Tremec TKX and drop it in with the new engine, but that's another $5-6k, so I'm gonna have to wait and save for it.

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Matt Wieczorek
1966 Bonneville Hardtop Coupe (family cruiser that we take to car shows)
1967 GTO hardtop, 400HO, 4 speed (don't ask, its a basket case)
1973 Grand Prix SJ (currently doing a rolling restoration)

Trying to find that "sweet spot" between Roadkill and Concours d'Elegance

Last edited by Mwieczorek; 05-18-2022 at 09:40 AM.
  #4  
Old 05-18-2022, 07:15 PM
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2.56:1 will require a 13" stock converter. Otherwise a risk of mushy pullaways will result.

Oh sure i could wing it and say 2800-3200 stall 10" converter, but you'd need to pay >$650 for a tight converter having a precise internal stack, with a precise shell. ATI has their limits.

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Old 05-18-2022, 09:52 PM
Mwieczorek Mwieczorek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud View Post
2.56:1 will require a 13" stock converter. Otherwise a risk of mushy pullaways will result.

Oh sure i could wing it and say 2800-3200 stall 10" converter, but you'd need to pay >$650 for a tight converter having a precise internal stack, with a precise shell. ATI has their limits.
I'm not sure it makes a huge difference, but it used to have 2.56:1 gears. It now has 3.08:1 gears.

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1966 Bonneville Hardtop Coupe (family cruiser that we take to car shows)
1967 GTO hardtop, 400HO, 4 speed (don't ask, its a basket case)
1973 Grand Prix SJ (currently doing a rolling restoration)

Trying to find that "sweet spot" between Roadkill and Concours d'Elegance
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  #6  
Old 05-19-2022, 12:21 AM
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You could put a T 350 convertor in and gain a few hundred RPM stall with it. I used a 350 convertor in my 73 T/A with a 455, and a 3.08 gear, it worked well on the street, and autocross. The stock T 400 is 13 inch, and the T350 is 12 inches, giving you a few hundred more stall, but isn't loose and mushy like a higher stall convertor can be, the bonus is it can be really inexpensive if you, or a friend have a stock 350 convertor lying around. Even a re-man should be under $150.

A stock T 400 13 inch stalls at 1800-2000 RPM, a stock 12 inch T 350 should bring you up to 2100-2300 RPM. Not a huge change, but the butt dyno should see it.

The best thing is it's a cheap swap, if you don't like it, you can swap for something aftermarket when you swap your rear gear. Your fuel mileage should be close to the same, if you care about fuel mileage.

If you're looking for a huge difference in stall, this may not be the convertor you want, but for a small change it works.

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Last edited by Sirrotica; 05-19-2022 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 05-19-2022, 07:38 AM
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We have used the 350 converter in our cars also and have been pretty happy with them. They seem to flash 2200 or so behind bigger cid’s. Big upgrade over some of the stock big diameter stalls, most the stock bigger diamter stalls I have had 1600-1800 rpm was all they would stall too.

For the most part looking for a new econo street converter with highway gears the 2500 Hughes performance converter has been ok for us.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hup-gm25-bpo

The 2500 Hughes can be a little mushy off idle. Closest comparison I have is we put one in a friends 70 GTO 455 with 3.07s and he gets along good. He complained a little about it being a little mushy at first, compared to the mammoth 13”+ dia stock converter, which only would stall to about 1600. The performance gain was night and day better with the Hughes, and it couples up well down the road, but it is slightly slushy below 2000.

I have had and have been around quite a few bigger stalls with highway gears. 3000 with 2.56s, 4000 with 3.23s ( which on the street had taller 275/60r15s). I have had many combos in the 2200 to 2500 stall range. For going to the track I really like the bigger tight expensive custom 9.5” stalls. Seems like a lot of the 10” converters (unless they are using a from scratch custom stator) tend to be slushy from idle once the flash is set for a 2500 to 3000 or higher stall speed. Versus the 9.5” don’t seem like they get slushy until after 4500 RPM. So far my favorite convertor has been a 9.5” dynamic that flashes to 4400 but drives around like it is a stock 11”, the most I can hold it with the brakes is 2000 rpm. Which I think is impressive considering I can usually hold a stock converter from a 350 to 2200 with the brakes.

Custom converters are money well spent if you want to be quick at the track. But, if the car never is ran at a track, and on the street can unload the tires already with out a stall, then it is pretty much a waist of money. There are quite a few good performance convertor companies, PTC and Dynamic are my 2 favorites. It is worth a phone call to talk to them to get a feeling on which one can get closer to what your looking for with street and track combos.


Last edited by Jay S; 05-19-2022 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 05-19-2022, 07:49 AM
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I run a TCI Saturday Night Special converter in my LeMans with a 455 and 3.55 gears. It couples well, is tight down low (can really feel it go into gear) and drives like a stocker with a little more stall. Have also ran it with 2.78 gears and it acted the same.

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Old 05-19-2022, 08:07 AM
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hoping the 3.08:1 has a posi. Good gear for Street

  #10  
Old 05-19-2022, 08:15 AM
Mwieczorek Mwieczorek is offline
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I like the way you guys are thinking with the TH350 converter. I'll look into that. I'm not hung up on a specific stall number, I just want what is going to be the best for an admittedly handicapped combo (heavy car with .308:1 gears).

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1966 Bonneville Hardtop Coupe (family cruiser that we take to car shows)
1967 GTO hardtop, 400HO, 4 speed (don't ask, its a basket case)
1973 Grand Prix SJ (currently doing a rolling restoration)

Trying to find that "sweet spot" between Roadkill and Concours d'Elegance
  #11  
Old 05-19-2022, 08:27 AM
Mwieczorek Mwieczorek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud View Post
hoping the 3.08:1 has a posi. Good gear for Street
Oh yes, the limited slip was a big part of the reason I did the swap! The 2.56:1 peg leg rear end just sucked and I wanted to upgrade. Looked around for a while and the best thing I found was this 3.08:1 diff. I ended up sending it off and having it converted to a limited slip. Normally it's not worth doing that, but since NOBODY makes aftermarket parts for these 65-70 Pontiac B body axles it made sense.

I looked into using a Chevrolet axle... No dice. I looked into having a custom axle fabricated to use the stock suspension mounting points, that was gonna be like $5k.

I'm still wondering if one can cut the axle tubes off the P axle and get an A body 12 bolt center section with stub axle tubes and weld them together. It would take custom axles, but I think getting those made would be doable.

That's on the "someday I'll look into this" list... I would need measurements from an A body axle, specifically the center line to the upper control arm mounts to compare to the P axle.

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1966 Bonneville Hardtop Coupe (family cruiser that we take to car shows)
1967 GTO hardtop, 400HO, 4 speed (don't ask, its a basket case)
1973 Grand Prix SJ (currently doing a rolling restoration)

Trying to find that "sweet spot" between Roadkill and Concours d'Elegance
  #12  
Old 05-19-2022, 11:46 AM
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Moser will build a B body 12 bolt with correct brackets, true track, 308, for right about $3k.

Here's Spohn's build sheet:

https://www.spohn.net/shop/1965-1970...-Rear-End.html

Quick Performance will do a 9" housing/axle package with correct brackets for about $1k:

https://www.quickperformance.com/QP-...e_p_22644.html

You can get them to do the hybrid Moser ends for a few bucks more, add a 3rd member with posi for less than $1500.

https://www.quickperformance.com/For...mber_p_36.html

.

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http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
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Old 05-19-2022, 11:55 AM
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I've used the TCI break-away converters in a few cases, and recommended them to others, all have been happy with them. They flash a little higher than rated, was seeing around 2600 is some cases, but they work well.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tci-240901

Always get the ones with the balloon plates.

.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #14  
Old 05-19-2022, 12:14 PM
Mwieczorek Mwieczorek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
Moser will build a B body 12 bolt with correct brackets, true track, 308, for right about $3k.

Here's Spohn's build sheet:

https://www.spohn.net/shop/1965-1970...-Rear-End.html

Quick Performance will do a 9" housing/axle package with correct brackets for about $1k:

https://www.quickperformance.com/QP-...e_p_22644.html

You can get them to do the hybrid Moser ends for a few bucks more, add a 3rd member with posi for less than $1500.

https://www.quickperformance.com/For...mber_p_36.html

.
If I had an Implala I would be all over that!

All the aftermarket shops say "GM B Body", but what they mean is "Chevrolet B body".

Problem is the Implala uses a straight 4 link with a panhard rod. The Pontiac uses a triangulated 4 link. They are different suspensions and the Impala rear end will not fit on a Bonneville. There are no ears on the differential to mount the upper control arms, the spring perches are not the correct spacing, and the axle width is wrong.

Nobody makes a Pontiac B body rear end. Most of the aftermarket axle companies (Moser, Quick Performance, Strange, etc) wouldn't even email me back about it. I did talk to a local ring and pinion shop and they referred me to a local fabricator and his fee for setting up and welding a housing was gonna be $4500. Then I needed to source the pig and custom axle shafts and whatnot.

Believe me, I went around and around with this last year and finally settled on getting the best Pontiac B body axle I could and living with it.

Most of the B body crowd are cruisers, so there isn't much demand for high performance axles for the big cars. I'm the odd guy that treats his Bonneville like an overgrown GTO.

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1966 Bonneville Hardtop Coupe (family cruiser that we take to car shows)
1967 GTO hardtop, 400HO, 4 speed (don't ask, its a basket case)
1973 Grand Prix SJ (currently doing a rolling restoration)

Trying to find that "sweet spot" between Roadkill and Concours d'Elegance
  #15  
Old 05-19-2022, 12:36 PM
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You may find the cast intake or performer will out perform the performer rpm in your heavy car. If you ever wind up rebuilding your transmission a low gear set really helps moving these heavy cars.

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Last edited by ta man; 05-19-2022 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 05-19-2022, 12:37 PM
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I don't know if you've looked into a ford 9 inch or not? This would give you enough strength, and have a drop out center section so changing ratios is done in under an hour. The bare housings aren't bad to graft mounts onto to adapt the housing to most any GM car. You have plenty of aftermarket support in gears and parts with that choice, plus a lot of used stuff, because oval track guys use them under everything, as do drag racers.

They're also supported with disc brake changeovers, if you'd choose to improve the braking in the rear. I'm going to put a 9 inch floater axle under a 84 GP that will be my next project for the street.

I know how few and far in between rear axle parts are for the B body cars in the performance department, so maybe going with an axle that is better supported by aftermarket would be a better move. That would be entirely your choice though. It would likely be the way I would handle the problem if it were my car.

Actually I had 2 Safari wagons, a 71, and a 76, once you get a pretty stout engine in them (both mine had near stock 455s) they can still perform well even with the highway gears in them. Dropping to a 3.08 should be worlds better over a 2.56/2.73 axle. Just see how you like the car with the 3.08 before you decide on an upgrade to a 9 inch. The 3.08 is right in the middle of highway gears and performance gears.

I'm pretty frugal myself, so I wouldn't suggest modifications that I wouldn't actually do myself.

Hope your build is just what you dreamed it could be. A member here used to drag race a Grandville before he bought a Firebird body to swap his parts into. I believe he got it into the 11s with roughly a 600 HP engine in it.

Here's his signature on his Grandville:

Quote:
74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550#
2011 1.60 60 f74t,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74

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1973 T/A (SOLD)
2005 GTO
1984 Grand Prix

100% Pontiacs in my driveway!!! What's in your driveway?

If you don't take some of the RACETRACK home with you, Ya got cheated

  #17  
Old 05-19-2022, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mwieczorek View Post
If I had an Implala I would be all over that!

All the aftermarket shops say "GM B Body", but what they mean is "Chevrolet B body".

Problem is the Implala uses a straight 4 link with a panhard rod. The Pontiac uses a triangulated 4 link. They are different suspensions and the Impala rear end will not fit on a Bonneville. There are no ears on the differential to mount the upper control arms, the spring perches are not the correct spacing, and the axle width is wrong.

Nobody makes a Pontiac B body rear end. Most of the aftermarket axle companies (Moser, Quick Performance, Strange, etc) wouldn't even email me back about it. I did talk to a local ring and pinion shop and they referred me to a local fabricator and his fee for setting up and welding a housing was gonna be $4500. Then I needed to source the pig and custom axle shafts and whatnot.

Believe me, I went around and around with this last year and finally settled on getting the best Pontiac B body axle I could and living with it.

Most of the B body crowd are cruisers, so there isn't much demand for high performance axles for the big cars. I'm the odd guy that treats his Bonneville like an overgrown GTO.
Ok, I get it now, didn't know that, have zero experience with the P 65-70 B body. Glad I know now though, because I want a 65-67 P B-body convertible, it's a bucket list thing.

You could always get an unassembled housing package and have someone weld it up, but wow, you need to find another fabber, $4500 sounds high to me.

.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
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Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
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Old 05-19-2022, 01:01 PM
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I guess this guy doesn't know what he's talking about either?

https://pmtfabrication.com/product/1...-trailing-arms

Those sure look like the A body type to me.

Anyone have a diagram for the 65-70 B-body rear suspension handy?

.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #19  
Old 05-19-2022, 01:32 PM
Mwieczorek Mwieczorek is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
I guess this guy doesn't know what he's talking about either?

https://pmtfabrication.com/product/1...-trailing-arms

Those sure look like the A body type to me.

Anyone have a diagram for the 65-70 B-body rear suspension handy?

.
So... I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I am a real life suspension engineer at General Motors, so I have some idea what I'm talking about here.

Those links may very well be for a Pontiac B body!

The Impala has a for/aft 4 link rear suspension with a panhard rod for lateral control. The upper and lower control links run straight for/aft, and the panhard rod controls side to side motion.

The Pontiac B body has a triangulated 4 link with no panhard rod. The upper control links are splayed outwards to the front like an A body, and the lower control arms are splayed out to the rear. This creates an inverted "W" shape in the plan view. Since the links are splayed, there is no need for a panhard rod because the links control lateral (side to side) motion.

On an Impala (and all those aftermarket rear axles) the upper and lower control links attach to the axle tubes and they are pointed straight for-aft. On the Pontiac the uppers attach to the center housing, and the lowers attach to the axle tubes, but they are all pointed at specific angles to support the splay of the links. Once I get the 10 bolt out from under my GTO I will measure the splay of the upper link mounts and compare it to my spare B body axle. Who knows, maybe the angles will be the same? (Doubtful, but if they were it would be a matter of sectioning the B body axle and welding the axle tubes to the A body center and having custom axle shafts made).

If I had a CMM or a Faro arm and could measure all the suspension points in 3D space and reference them to the centerline of the axle, I would be all over doing so and machining up brackets and fabricating an axle using a sheet metal 9" center section! Unfortunately the Faro Arm is at work and GM does not look kindly on people bringing their pet projects to the office these days... I suppose I could set it on a table and block it up and do my best with a tape measure and protractor but man, that's an undertaking and a half and those mounts need to be spot on. Othwerise the axle will dog track or your pinion angle will be off or some other stupidity will ensue. The new Hummer is supposed to crab walk, my Bonneville is not.

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Matt Wieczorek
1966 Bonneville Hardtop Coupe (family cruiser that we take to car shows)
1967 GTO hardtop, 400HO, 4 speed (don't ask, its a basket case)
1973 Grand Prix SJ (currently doing a rolling restoration)

Trying to find that "sweet spot" between Roadkill and Concours d'Elegance
  #20  
Old 05-19-2022, 01:44 PM
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I wasn't being sarcastic, or trying to be rude, I truly was asking if that was a legitimate setup that guy is selling, and if it was a correct setup.

Excellent to have hard core GM engineers on here, a big welcome to you!

Wonder if there's a way to cross ref the center housing part numbers? Do a comparison? Even mechanical drawings would be a good start? Trying to think outside the box here.

I am interested, like I said, I'm almost ready to go through this with my own car, once I finish moving, and purchase one, am starting to keep an eye out now for a project candidate.

.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
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The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




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