[LMSRACER]

Think about this......

There is absolutely no reason to pump the Coolant into the Block first. The Heat Energy is in the Combustion Chambers and Exhaust Ports. If anything, pumping the Coolant into the Heads first and then into the Block is beneficial. Bringing the Block Temperature up more quickly is of benefit for Ring Seal/Piston Fit along with increasing the Oil Temperature more quickly, therefore reducing the Oil's Viscosity sooner. That in turn reduces the Parasitic Power Losses experienced by the Rotating Assembly (Windage) and driving the Oil Pump.

With that being said, Dry Decking is for Maximum Effort, High Boost Pressure, Big Nitrous Power Adder Combinations. If that is not you, then you are seriously over-thinking it.

Unless you have enough Cylinder Pressure to stretch the Head Studs or deform the Cylinder Heads, or enough Exhaust BTUs to soften the Cylinder Head, all of which cause serious Head Gasket sealing concerns, you really are over-thinking it.

Have a nice day,
Laurence Snyder

[opeliac]

My combo will start with a pair of 76mm turbos until everything is lined out...Travis Quillen thinks it should be good for 2000ish with those(as do I), and then i'll put bigger turbos on...The car has to be able to live enough to be able to drive it, but when it is on the track, my plan is to turn it as hard as it'll turn(within reason)...I have zero interest in a slow twin turbo car...

With that said, i'm looking for every little bit that I can get...

You say there is no benefit to pumping water into the block first...Then that is telling me that most people are doing it wrong, since they enter the front of the block, then criss cross from the back of the block up to the heads, and then out the front of the heads...

This is exactly why I am asking these questions before I decide on how I want to try it...I really appreciate you taking the time to post on this subject...

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

Think about this......

There is absolutely no reason to pump the Coolant into the Block first. The Heat Energy is in the Combustion Chambers and Exhaust Ports. If anything, pumping the Coolant into the Heads first and then into the Block is beneficial. Bringing the Block Temperature up more quickly is of benefit for Ring Seal/Piston Fit along with increasing the Oil Temperature more quickly, therefore reducing the Oil's Viscosity sooner. That in turn reduces the Parasitic Power Losses experienced by the Rotating Assembly (Windage) and driving the Oil Pump.

With that being said, Dry Decking is for Maximum Effort, High Boost Pressure, Big Nitrous Power Adder Combinations. If that is not you, then you are seriously over-thinking it.

Unless you have enough Cylinder Pressure to stretch the Head Studs or deform the Cylinder Heads, or enough Exhaust BTUs to soften the Cylinder Head, all of which cause serious Head Gasket sealing concerns, you really are over-thinking it.

Have a nice day,
Laurence Snyder

[LMSRACER]

There is a real benefit to pumping Coolant into the Block first and that would be ease of plumbing your Cooling System. Other than that, there is no benefit that I can think of.

Plumbing a Dry Deck Block and Head Combination in which the Coolant enters the Block at the Front, exits out of the Rear of the Block, crosses over to the opposite Banks of the Block, enters the Rear of the Cylinder Heads, flows through the Cylinder Heads and exits out of the Front of the Heads at the Water Crossover is in NO WAY optimized. I do believe that if anyone believes that this is optimized, then I do believe that they are seriously mistaken.

In that configuration, the #1 and #2 Cylinder Bores are the Coolest and the #1 and #2 Combustion Chambers are the Hottest. The Siamesed Center Exhaust Ports do not receive the Coolant First and that's a Mistake.

If the Engine is going to serve "Dual Duty" then configure the Fuel System for "Dual Fuel". Pump Gas and Methanol utilizing two Fuel Systems and Boost Controlled Fuel and Timing Maps to bring the Methanol in under High Boost/Heavy Load Conditions.

Methanol Injection and Cooling System Temperature regulation go together like a Hand and a Glove.

Good Evening,
Laurence Snyder

[opeliac]

It will be a dual fuel/dual injection setup. The plan is to run an EFI ON E85, in conjunction with a MFI on methanol.

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

There is a real benefit to pumping Coolant into the Block first and that would be ease of plumbing your Cooling System. Other than that, there is no benefit that I can think of.

Plumbing a Dry Deck Block and Head Combination in which the Coolant enters the Block at the Front, exits out of the Rear of the Block, crosses over to the opposite Banks of the Block, enters the Rear of the Cylinder Heads, flows through the Cylinder Heads and exits out of the Front of the Heads at the Water Crossover is in NO WAY optimized. I do believe that if anyone believes that this is optimized, then I do believe that they are seriously mistaken.

In that configuration, the #1 and #2 Cylinder Bores are the Coolest and the #1 and #2 Combustion Chambers are the Hottest. The Siamesed Center Exhaust Ports do not receive the Coolant First and that's a Mistake.

If the Engine is going to serve "Dual Duty" then configure the Fuel System for "Dual Fuel". Pump Gas and Methanol utilizing two Fuel Systems and Boost Controlled Fuel and Timing Maps to bring the Methanol in under High Boost/Heavy Load Conditions.

Methanol Injection and Cooling System Temperature regulation go together like a Hand and a Glove.

Good Evening,
Laurence Snyder

[taff2]

Originally Posted by opeliac

How would you enter in at the center exhaust area of an e head?

You would have to find a spot on the head where you can dril and tap for a AN10 fitting, I would drill under the two centre exhaust ports - should be able to get a fitting in there under the headers. May have to put a heat shield around the fitting/hose.
IMO every high boost combo should be dry decked and reverse cooled ,especially if you're on gas and only have 4 head bolts/studs per cylinder, - better detonation resistance, no chance of water getting in your cylinders, more stable head deck, the ability to direct the water where its needed most ( not where the manufacturers decided it was the cheapest way to do it! ).
And if the OP is going to run 6.80@220, then it IS going to be a max effort high cylinder pressure combo.

[taff2]

"Plumbing a Dry Deck Block and Head Combination in which the Coolant enters the Block at the Front, exits out of the Rear of the Block, crosses over to the opposite Banks of the Block, enters the Rear of the Cylinder Heads, flows through the Cylinder Heads and exits out of the Front of the Heads at the Water Crossover is in NO WAY optimized. I do believe that if anyone believes that this is optimized, then I do believe that they are seriously mistaken"

I agree with you, in the above type of dry deck system the water/coolant should enter the heads first , cross over to the block at the rear and exit the front of the block to the radiator. However, the water exiting the front of the block near cyls 1 & 2 will be very hot - on my previous combo it was hot enough to burn the paint on the block near the water exits. Which is why I worked out my current set up as described earlier - temps should be more even and you have four entry and four exit points for the water instead of two entry/exits with the popular type of system.

[3fastgtos]

Taff do you have any pics of your cooling setup?

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by opeliac

It sounds like putting the water in the front, AND the back of the block, then returning out through the freeze plugs, would give the best results for the block....

I'd have to think you'ld be creating a dead zone on the top side of siamesed cylinders doing it like this.

Just thinking out loud
Clay

[johnta1]

Here's a previous link on head cooling:

Head Cooling

Post #35 has some pics that may work?

[taff2]

Originally Posted by 3fastgtos

Taff do you have any pics of your cooling setup?

Not the complete set up as the engine is currently out while I upgrade it, here are pics of the modded 55 gph water pump.
The brass fittings in the pump send water through AN10 hoses - one to each bank at the front side of the block, and return water from the rear sides of the block through AN10 hose to the water manifold/stat housing. And back to radiator.
The threaded holes in the pump alloy plate will have fittings that send water through AN10 hoses - one to the rear of each head at the heater nipple holes, and return water through AN10 hoses from the front of each head at the crossover holes to the water manifold/stat housing. And back to the radiator.
Pics of the head and block fittings locations are on my old laptop.
I can draw a rough diagram if you need it.

[LMSRACER]

Originally Posted by taff2

"Plumbing a Dry Deck Block and Head Combination in which the Coolant enters the Block at the Front, exits out of the Rear of the Block, crosses over to the opposite Banks of the Block, enters the Rear of the Cylinder Heads, flows through the Cylinder Heads and exits out of the Front of the Heads at the Water Crossover is in NO WAY optimized. I do believe that if anyone believes that this is optimized, then I do believe that they are seriously mistaken"

I agree with you, in the above type of dry deck system the water/coolant should enter the heads first , cross over to the block at the rear and exit the front of the block to the radiator. However, the water exiting the front of the block near cyls 1 & 2 will be very hot - on my previous combo it was hot enough to burn the paint on the block near the water exits. Which is why I worked out my current set up as described earlier - temps should be more even and you have four entry and four exit points for the water instead of two entry/exits with the popular type of system.

That is Hot... Hot enough to burn the Paint off with Coolant Temperature must have been in the Hundreds of Degrees......

Sure enough there are many ways to go about this, including more than one Water Pump with dedicated Coolant Paths.

Inevitably, it becomes difficult to create the optimum arrangement due to the number of Cooling Lines, Fittings, Manifolds, etc..

I would suggest, that if it is decided that only one Water Pump is to be used, and that your going to use Separate Coolant Inlets for the Heads and for the Block, that you restrict the Coolant Flow to the Block in order to promote additional Coolant Flow to the Heads.

Thanks,
Laurence Snyder

[taff2]

[QUOTE=LMSRACER;6248421]That is Hot... Hot enough to burn the Paint off with Coolant Temperature must have been in the Hundreds of Degrees......
The gauge temp was around 220f as I recall, paint near the exits was blistered and flaky. The block is 2/3rds filled.
Two 8 second runs within minutes of each other got it pretty hot.

[GTOGEORGE]

Why can't you get water to the block & heads at the same time from the water pump?

GTO George

[taff2]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

I would suggest, that if it is decided that only one Water Pump is to be used, and that your going to use Separate Coolant Inlets for the Heads and for the Block, that you restrict the Coolant Flow to the Block in order to promote additional Coolant Flow to the Heads.

Thanks,
Laurence Snyder

I had thought of using AN8 instead of AN10 lines for the block, but have stuck with the AN10 - I can use a restrictor 'pill' in each fitting if necessary, thanks for the advice. I have a restrictor orifice plug in the raditor top hose - previously 5/8" diameter hole. I've also upgraded to a bigger ali radiator over the ali/plastic John Deere ride on mower radiator I was using.

[opeliac]

[QUOTE=taff2;6248533]

Originally Posted by LMSRACER

That is Hot... Hot enough to burn the Paint off with Coolant Temperature must have been in the Hundreds of Degrees......
The gauge temp was around 220f as I recall, paint near the exits was blistered and flaky. The block is 2/3rds filled.
Two 8 second runs within minutes of each other got it pretty hot.

Are you running a stock block? When you say 2/3rds, are you saying the block is filled above the freeze plugs?

[taff2]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Why can't you get water to the block & heads at the same time from the water pump?

GTO George

If you mean my combo George - I can. Having 4 outlets on the water pump means I can put water through the 2 heads inlets/ 2 heads outlets and at the 2 block inlets/2 block outlets at the same time, allowing more total water flow through the cooling system than the usual reverse cooled/dry deck system of just 2 heads inlets and two block outlets.

[taff2]

[QUOTE=opeliac;6248544]

Originally Posted by taff2

Are you running a stock block? When you say 2/3rds, are you saying the block is filled above the freeze plugs?

Yes stock 1959 389 block. Well not quite stock - I have welded up and cross braced the lifter valley, fabbed a type of cross bolted mains caps girdle, fitted longer caps dowels, dry decked ,etc etc.
Yes ,block is filled above the core plugs, I have approx 1 -1/4" of coolant under the block decks.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by taff2

If you mean my combo George - I can. Having 4 outlets on the water pump means I can put water through the 2 heads inlets/ 2 heads outlets and at the 2 block inlets/2 block outlets at the same time, allowing more total water flow through the cooling system than the usual reverse cooled/dry deck system of just 2 heads inlets and two block outlets.

I like the iidea with restricting the flow going to the block......good idea!



GTO George