#21  
Old 04-05-2022, 07:32 PM
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The Head flow post..Intakes…More engine TECH from this build

Stock Intake flow 6x-4, measured on our flow bench converted CFM @ 28”
.100”. 83
.200”. 138
.300”. 189
.400”. 213
.500”. 216

I don’t have the ported flows for the 6X-4’s when they were running 270s with the 2.11” 30* valves. But the 96 heads we run flow similar, these 96s had a little more work done to them than the 6x-4s before I changed them to 2.125” intakes. The 6x topped out at mid 270s @.6” for the work I did. The 96s have more iron removed off the short side radius, deep bowl. But for comparison, here is the flow numbers for the 96 heads on the 455 in our T-37. Stock 30* seats. Again, on our flow bench…No welding or epoxy, RA 4 port size

.100”. 90. Change from stock 6x is +. 7
.200”. 165. Change + 27
.300”. 228. Change +39
.400”. 248. Change +35
.500”. 272 Change +56
.600”. 282. Change + 66
.700”. 284. Change + 68

These are the Ported 6X-4 heads with 2.125”. Most people probably assume I switched to 2.125” valve with 45* seats for more flow, that was not the primary reason. It was to manage the extra compression this engine has, and spread the power band out more. I will compare the 96 head engine to these for the next post. And you can see the numbers, and different ways that we changed cams and compression to match the heads flows.

.100”. 74. -13 against stock 6x, -16 ported 96
.200”. 148. +10 -17.
.300”. 219. +24. -9.
.400”. 248. +35. 0
.500”. 282. +69. +10.
.600”. 292. +79 +10


Last edited by Jay S; 04-05-2022 at 08:28 PM.
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  #22  
Old 04-05-2022, 09:57 PM
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Some more in depth cam tech, or numbers behind the madness.

Most people on the forum would pick this 10:1 455 with stock 6x heads and a Melling RA 4 cam for a good pump gas combo over our T37 with the 10:1 SCR 455 280 cfm fast rate SFT cam, or my 11:1 Trans Am engine with the roller and the 292 cfm 6x heads…. Look how close the pumping calculators are on these. Only a 1 point octane spread between all 3.

We check the actual intake closing on cams after they are installed, based off of .009” at the valve, which with 1.5 rockers is .006” tappet lift. I have Stan Weiss’s CARFOR program that has a calculator that figures pumping compression. It also has a calculator that uses the pumping compression to calculate a fuel octane requirement, great tool for the stuff we do with engines.

For fun I will add some number’s from Wallace’s dynamic compression calculator, another calculator, among many from Wallace’s site I use a lot. I think the Wallace’s calculator uses a different cranking compression coefficient, but it adds another dimension to the pumping compression. The V/P index is the volume to pressure ratio at the point of the intake closing, giving an indication of the engine’s low speed characteristic’s for the intake closing for the DCR parameters. It is a reflection of the cylinder pressure as the valve closes. It is the number that can through all the numbers off, it doesn’t always follow the cam numbers. Of all the numbers the calculator’s produce, it is the most dynamic indicator.

Numbers for the very Popular RA4 cam, Melling SPC-8, in a 455 set up for 10:1 compression.
Installed at 109*, 77 closing
Pumping compression 173 lbs/in2
Dynamic compression at sea level= 7.2
1000 ft DCR altitude adjustment 7.0
Adjusted V/P index=129
Minimum Octane requirement= 90.6

T37 engine, 455 with 10.0 compression, ported 96 heads, Compcams Max Area Solid flat tappet. 283 intake, 291 exh, closing calculated after lash, .009” at the valve, installed at 108, 75.5 closing
Cranking Compression = 176 lbs/in2
Dynamic compression = 7.31
1000 Adjusted DCR = 7.11
Adjusted V/P index = 134
Minimum Octane= 91.3

461 Trans Am engine, 461 cid, 11.1 compression, ported 6x-4, 300 intake 308 exhaust, after lash, .009 at the valve. Installed at 111, 84 closing
Cranking compression= 178 lbs/in2
Dynamic compression= 7.37
1000 ft Adjusted DCR = 7.17
Adjusted V/P index= 123
Minimum Octane Rating=91.7


Last edited by Jay S; 04-05-2022 at 10:26 PM.
  #23  
Old 04-06-2022, 11:00 AM
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Following your thread closely, love the pics and tech info - we can always learn something new.

"Stock Intake flow 6x-4, measured on our flow bench converted CFM @ 28”
.100”. 83
.200”. 138
.300”. 189
.400”. 213
.500”. 216



As to the flow numbers, as I post some old articles from my Pontiac archive stash in a couple of other threads, I came across a interesting one on Pontiac Cylinder head specs and flow numbers. See the attached article from the Pontiac Mag dated June 1991.
BUT - they state that their testing was done at 12" of water?
You are in another league than many of us, but maybe enlighten us on flow testing parameters, and some reasons why your stock results are quite a bit greater than those in the article?

Interesting you stuck with the 6x's for a stock look, but massaged the heck out of them for performance. I took a different route, went with #12's for higher compression, and competition ported them per HO specs. Never flow tested them, but gotta believe - and the point is - taking the time for proper porting can yield significant flow and performance improvements.
Hell - just compare your ported results to the stock flow rates!
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Old 04-06-2022, 11:48 AM
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Flow bench to flow bench can vary some, and generally do vary. The standard flow rate depression is considered 28”. Not many have a bench that will flow that much depression, they are generally always adjusted to 28”. Here is a flow conversion calculator

http://www.wallaceracing.com/calcdchg.php

For better flow comparisons between Pontiac heads, use this source:

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Pontiac

Pretty sure those numbers in that article came from Pete McCarthy’s testing. I have heard a couple different opinions on that. To be honest, I don’t think any of those flow’s from the testing back then are really compare to someone else’s flow bench at all. From what I recall shortly after all those Pontiac head testing were done the owner of the flow bench that did that testing found a big rat’s nest in the bench, if that was true, it made all the numbers a bit wonky. It took quite a bit of top end flow off the high performance heads and made them look pretty mediocre As I recall that testing was done in a homemade flow bench at a shop in Southern California. You can converter flow depressions to 28” if they are take at 12”. But if those are flow numbers from the McCarthy’s efforts they still won’t be close to correct. IRC the conversion from 12 to 28 is a factory of 1.37.





My goal on this engine is to put everything back stock appearing, numbers matching and even casting number matching on everything. I would love to take it to a F.A.S.T. (Factory Appear Stock Tire) racing event someday. Not be competative, just to have fun. We have a 72 Plymouth Satelite built similarly to my T/A, it looks like it is a low compression completely stock 400 with a/c and factory manifolds, but it is a 542 CID inside, pushing 600 HP. Kind of built similar too a FAST build but also built to drive on the street…Headers are the only thing I am will to leave on my T/A that aren’t stock. But honestly I would love to even have the log manifolds back on the T/A. I have other engines 455s, 400s ect… I could have used in the car, and have other heads that out flow my 6x-4s. But, I wanted to stay as original as possible. Not many of my cars are original like this car, I am trying to keep it that way… And not make it the slowest muscle car I own.

More pics: My helper back when I brought the block for my T/A into the office to design the main girdle. I seem to have lots of pick, just no good ones of the outside of the car.

The Christmas photo of my boy in the sock hat with Smokey and the Bandit playing in the background with the top cut of the car..too funny. I have no idea what was going on that day.
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Last edited by Jay S; 04-06-2022 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 04-06-2022, 01:21 PM
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I’m not gonna say why I think you don’t have any pics of that car. ��

If it was mine, I’d leave the outside alone & kick ass Joe Dirt style! Mullet, vest with no shirt & foot on the floor! I’m kinda funny that way.

Are ya done yet?
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  #26  
Old 04-06-2022, 04:44 PM
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LOL..I can totally picture Joe Dirt driving my car!


I think one of his cousins owned it before me.

Heck yes, keep a fire under me so I get it finished.


I need to get the intake on so I can get it back out of the trailer and get some photos of it, still missing the full car photo. I have a photo of the back half of the T/A from a couple years ago. lol
I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised, I have had my Chevelle since 1985 and I think I have a whopping 4 photo’s of it. It is in the background behind the T/A. I seem to have photos of a few of our other cars.

I might have to put the single plane back on and make patterns for working on port matching the stock intake. Stock intakes ports are not tall enough. The SKS boatersmarine epoxy I ordered to work on the intake has been back ordered for a couple weeks now. Must be on a cargo ship outside of LA yet.
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Last edited by Jay S; 04-06-2022 at 05:33 PM.
  #27  
Old 09-20-2022, 01:08 AM
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I am finally getting caught up on my T/A project. I had it all ready to go to the Pontiac Uprising in Great Bend last weekend, then the night before about 9.30 in the evening I noticed a puddle of brake fluid at the back of the car. A brake line rusted out. I cut it back to where the line was covered with undercoating, got the flaring tool out and fixed it today.

It has the Stock 77 intake on it now. I filled and blocked off the driver side heat crossover. The passenger side is still plumbed into the intake, so the factory choke is still functional. I bought a electric choke from Cliff if I decide to plug the heat crossovers off completely, but so far I have not regretted leaving it as is. I put freeze plugs in the EGR. I was considering trying to keep the EGR, mostly because everything for the EGR appeared complete yet on the intake. It was more just for curiosity then anything, to see how the engine would respond. Then while plasma cutting a bigger hole for the Bulter valley tray PCV location mismatch, I burnt up the EFE/EGR valve on the front of the intake, I would still like to have it on there and non functionally hooked up just for nostalgia. Lol. Those aspirations quickly disappeared at that point when the valve was on fire. After that I went ahead and opened up the intake below the carb, there would be no EGR.

The epoxy I ordered months and months ago never came. I was going to fill the top of the intake ports to line the ceilings of the intake ports to the stock intake (I took them to far). But, I ended up changing directions on the heads. I had a pin leak on an exhaust port to repair. For some reason I bought bigger welding rod than I usually use, and I really messed up that exhaust port trying to fix it. I decide I really went to far on the exhuast port porting for a street engine, several areas are really thin on the exhaust ports, so I worked over another set of 6X-4 heads.

On the next set I contoured the short side turn sooner, and did not take near as much material off the roof, and port matched the intake manifold and head ports to a 1233 felpro gasket. Quite a bit shorter ports than I had on the other heads. I gained 18 cfm over the other heads on the intakes. The new heads flow 310 cfm @.7”, instead of 292 cfm @.6”. Plus I did it without any epoxy or welding anyplace. I did loose 12 cfm exhaust flow compared to the other heads.

I changed the valve springs so that I can try 1.8 rockers arms down the road to use more of the intake flow I found in the heads. I dropped the seat pressure some to 160 lbs and increased the spring rate to 413. I moved the valves from the other heads over to these. I did the oversized valves in my shop on one head, I had a friend do the other head. Both heads are milled, .008 and .010”, the compression is still just over 11:1.

Going into the porting the stock intake I was a little unsure how well it was going to go because the port exits are tiny. I was pleasantly surprised that after I port match it, the ports get much bigger in further. The port matching actually straightens the ports out and provides a straighter shot into the head. One port had a pretty big restriction that took some work at an intake bolt boss. Opened up the plenum is impressively deep. I think it is likely deeper than any of the other early intakes. I was very pleased with it, and it runs and sounds great. The choke was not functional with the t1 intake that was on it, it is good to have it’s street manors back. It idles at about 650 rpm, has a slight lope with the X pipe on the car now. The X pipe tamed the idle quite a bit.

I am getting close to being finished with mechanical projects on the car. I have Trans Am Racing wheel and 275/50-15 Nitto drag radials on the back of the car. I ordered a fender flare that was broke. I am down to tracking down the a fuel gauge short, dash light short, and finishing the tail pipes on the exhaust. One front caliper has a bad bleeder, and the A/C need some work, and the billet midplate needs to go on the tranny yet. Still plenty of stuff to do, just going to enjoy the car for awhile.

Next time i have it out I’ll get some picture up. It looks SOO much better with the vintage looking Trans Am wheels and the big tires on the back! The Keystones aluminum rims I had on it got moved to another car. I am hoping to take it to my local 1/8 mile track here in the next few weeks.
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Last edited by Jay S; 09-20-2022 at 01:44 AM.
  #28  
Old 09-20-2022, 09:37 AM
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I accidentally posted someone else’s engine photo last night, it was my reference photo.. Hard to tell on my phone. Here are some project photos. Plus the t37 out in the from of the shop going on at the same time.
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  #29  
Old 09-20-2022, 09:39 AM
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Side by side shot of the stock factory intake port and the same intake port matched to a felpro 1233 gasket, versus stock. Hard to see the difference until you look closely at the metal left to seal it up. Plus another 455 out on the shop floor going in the t37.

I have the longer Dynomax 17748’s under the car. I had to remove them and flip them to make the flow master tail pipes work. Which also took some work using the longer casting mufflers. In progress.

And one of my helpers, every time I crawl under the car he becomes my best friend.

A photo of our first car. 71 Chevelle that has a 1970 455 Olds in it. One of the other many project going on at the same time as the T/A. Finally finished the fuel tank and drove it around last week. First time is many years. I added a sump so the engine doesn’t get starved at the track. It is in front of my T/A for paint and body work. It will be a little while before I tear into the paint on the T/A.
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Last edited by Jay S; 09-20-2022 at 10:21 AM.
  #30  
Old 09-20-2022, 10:04 AM
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Is there anyway to delete that spam post?

  #31  
Old 09-20-2022, 10:05 AM
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I reported it. Click the exclamation point in the triangle in the upper right hand corner of the post. Mods will see the report and remove it.

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  #32  
Old 09-20-2022, 10:06 AM
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Thank you!

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Old 09-20-2022, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
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Thank you!
Hey Jay, I sent you a PM.
Thanks
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  #34  
Old 09-23-2022, 11:58 AM
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I ended up replacing more brake lines than I thought initially. One of the lines on the rear axle was leaking too. In the process of fixing that I noticed a brown wire hanging down from the back bumper that the mice chewed on. Pretty sure that is why the fuel gauge isn’t working. It pegs to full, which means it has a open circuit. These little things are going to drive me crazy!

I had not driven it much with these new tires and rims, it has always had 245/60-15s all the way around. I think I need to get some factory 15”wheels on the car with taller tires like what it had, maybe wider on the back, but in that 27”-28” range tire height. These tires now are really too short for much street driving. I didn’t notice it driving by myself, but with my brother riding with me it was dragging and hitting stuff more than I like. I switched to them to do some drag racing, plus they look much better, the back are 275/50-15 Nitto’s and the front are Cooper 235/60r14s.


I was a little concerned that switching over to the factory intake with the heat cross over still half functional it was going to be harder to tune for pump gas. At least compared to how it was configured earlier with the single plane and better flowing exhaust with the cross over totally blocked.. I am happy to say it is quiet, actually more pleasant to drive than it is ever been since I have owned the car…and still likes 91 octane pump gas.
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Last edited by Jay S; 09-23-2022 at 12:14 PM.
  #35  
Old 09-23-2022, 12:13 PM
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Looks real similar to the stance of my modded '80 turbo SE after removing the AC & front mount battery & installing cut regular 301Formula front coils, 255-60's up front, & VSE shackles & 265-60 NCTs on the rear. No Nitto's back then, I could have used a pair.

Love that 557 block girdle! Jay, any intentions of producing any more?

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  #36  
Old 09-23-2022, 02:39 PM
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That sounds like a really low stance, but with a bit taller tire than what I have. I like the stance of the slightly smaller and narrower front tire against the back tires on gen 2 firebirds. I don’t recall ever seeing a 265/60r15. NTC’s sounds familiar, was that Goodyear’s touring tire?

The Nitto’s side wall appearance remind me of a road course racing tire from the 60s and 70s. I probably should have bought a 275/60-15 Nitto for the back instead of the 50s. Nitto tires seem to be slightly shorter than other brands the same size. I will likely go back to a 245/60-15s in the front.

Right now we are testing the girdle’s, I want to make sure it is doing it’s job and there are no surprises. There are another couple engines that are getting the girdle that are being abused more than this one. Although the engine in my T/A isn’t exactly very mild, especially considering it is the 557 casting. The cad work and shop mfg blueprints are all done on the girdle too mass produce it.

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Old 09-24-2022, 02:30 AM
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Jay. I have run several sets of P235-70R15's on my TA, using the Rally-2's. They looked better (to me), than the P225-70R15 size did. They would rub the suffrage at the rear just a fuzz when the wheel was fully turned in either direction.

We're you able to mo much internal porting on the O.E. iron intake! Dave @ S.D. Performance has several versions of porting on these intakes. The most radical version, he says will support 600 H.P.,man that is awesome!!! A dead model brand, and folks are still fooling withe stuff!!!
I hope he gets things back in order from this latest flood/landslide!!!

You could place a, Want-to-buy ad in the parts for sale area here. I bet there's tons of EGR valves laying around in Pontiac enthusiasts garages!!!

Do your remember how you have you carb tuned? Just curious. Cliff sure is a blessing to have here!!!

The 350 that is temporarily in my TA has a 78 iron stock intake on it. I was working in an auto parts store at the time.
I thought it was cool the the EGR holes in the intake were both round. I ordered a box of each size ( Dorman).
I do remember one size is 1/2 inch. And I think the other is slightly smaller. They are crammed way back in my garage. I too, plan to have a "faux" EGR b alve on my setup, although not on the current 350.

Th we re was thread in the racing section about "epoxy" used for port work, in the racing section. I will see if I can bring it to the top. In case you are interested!!!

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  #38  
Old 09-24-2022, 10:29 AM
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The qjet currently has the high flow needle and seat. The primary jets are #73 with 44L primary rods. The secondary rods are DA.

Cliff sent me new idle tubes, I kind of dread working on those, so I decided I wouldn’t install them unless there was an issue with the idling. That has not been an issue so I have not touched the part of the carb.


I did not cut the secondary divider down on the intake like many people do, including SDP. When Cliff and I talked about he said what he had seen on the dyno was cutting that down traded a few peak HP for mid range TQ. This late style EGR intake already has the primary divider cut down when the EGR carb to intake plate isn’t on it, so I decided to leave the secondary divider. I ground a bunch to blend where the EGR comes into the intake, then used epoxy to fill in the ports, and have small freeze plugs blocking them on the bottom side, then I put the EGR valve over it.

  #39  
Old 09-24-2022, 11:25 AM
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Thanks for the idea’s Jeff. I’ll have to shake some trees and see if I can find another vacuum valve. Sounds like a 235/70r15 would work well. I think the 245/60-15s I had before would rub slightly when fully turned like you described. I’ll have to look those sizes and compare. 235/70 might be a little taller than the 245/60’s, a little more height would help.


Last night my 10 year old son and I took the T/A to town. At one point we stopped at a Sonic drive in, which is a car hop type drive in. The young gal that brought our drinks out right away said “wow, that is cool car!” Then was looking at the inside and said “is that a manual transmission”. The nut to hold the shift nob was loose and the shift pattern was upside down, it kind of thru her off for a second. I flipped it right side up so she could read it. She right away lit up, and said she was driving a 98 mustang and here mom made her get a stick shift. You could tell she enjoyed her car. I told her that is awesome, and that not many know how to drive a stick shift anymore. The young gal has a job, and drive’s a pony car with a stick shift. Pretty cool if you ask me.. I’d be a pretty proud dad if that was my kid!

The after dark trip reminded me that I need to work on the dash lights!


Last edited by Jay S; 09-24-2022 at 12:11 PM.
  #40  
Old 10-07-2022, 09:03 AM
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Jay S Jay S is offline
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Join Date: May 2018
Location: Nebraska City, Nebraska
Posts: 1,672
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I used the T/A as my daily driver last week. Only problems I had were from a defective sticky thermostat. I would get about 4 miles from home and it would get hot all of a sudden. Letting it idle for 30 seconds it would cool down, then usually be fine, then it seemed to get worse later in the week. Thought maybe it was a bad connection on the temp sender, it never acted hot, but when I pulled the thermostat out the issue went away, 130* was were the temp like to run with the weather in the mid 80s without the thermostat. Definitely needs the thermostat.

As for my quest to get the car down the track. Wheel hop is really bad with the drag radials. I changed to some drag shocks on the back, hoping the shocks were just bad. I noticed the shocks had undercoating on them, likely original. Set the drag shocks on 50,50. It rides rougher, has less wheel hop, but is still bad. Guessing the rear springs aren’t very good, and need heavier springs. I was all set to take it to our local 1/8th mile track last weekend, but took another car because the T/A is going to break something unless that wheel hop is dealt with. Probably add some cheap slapper bars for now, i have set in storage somewhere. But it needs new back springs when I get a chance. I don’t want any kind of visible traction device on the car, and still want the stock wheels and tires back on it, but not much choice right now.

I would appreciate back spring recommendations, or other wheel hop remedies .
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Last edited by Jay S; 10-07-2022 at 09:41 AM.
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