[74SDformula]

Yes, I still have that WH engine hanging around. Unfortunately I am not in a good enough financial position to make a move on this car. In speaking with the seller I think the VIN of my engine is close to the VIN of his car. With that in mind I would think that most of the casting dates would work for this car. Oh well.

[turbo69bird]

SD I was gonna shoot you a message but your PMs are full. Clear that Biotch!

[turbo69bird]

Originally Posted by wovenweb

I guess one could say that without much of the original driveline you are really buying just a VIN and Firewall tag? Perhaps too harshly worded...

From the pics I saw looked like there was alot more there than a firewall tag and a vin.

Of course it does have a overflow bottle so it probably isnt worth anything at all. LOL

Ahh man I love this forum sometimes.........

[MikeNoun]

I think what people are saying is that without the RAIV driveline, you're buying a $7,000-$10,000 1969 Firebird 400 for $40,000. Is it worth the extra $30,000 for the paperwork of it being a RAIV car? Depends on what you want to do with it.

It will cost another $20K to get a real RAIV engine (Firebird codes), trans, and rear end (and that may be cheap, just an guesstimate). You can restamp everything and call it a day, but that will be a tough sell at auction I think. Another $3000 for the Ram Air pans, hardware, scoops assembly. Now if you want to leave it that, you have $60K into a 1969 RAIV Bird, which is reasonable if you ask me.

And there's NOTHING wrong with leaving it at that, but....

To do this thing justice, because this is a highly desirable Pontiac, it will need to be professionally restored. That means stripping the body, painting it the right color, adding a vinyl top, etc. Body and paint work can be $10,000, but we all know that a car like this needs "the Yenko treatment", it needs a top notch restorer, not a corner body shop guy. This will cost another $50K for a reputable restorer to do this thing right, to do it to a level that will bring big bucks.

So we're at $110K now all done, and I think that's realistic.

In a different economy, the car may be worth $150K, but based on recent sales of a 1969 RAIV Trans Am at $135K, and RAIV Judges, I think $100K might be pushing it. The days of a $250K 1970 RAIV Trans Am and a $500K 1970 Judge ragtop are history.

For me personally, this would be THE coolest car to restore. I think anyone with a 69 Bird, whether it's a 6-cyl, 350, 400, Ram Air, or Trans Am, understands that a 1969 RAIV Firebird 400 is THE Holy Grail of Pontiac muscle. The only other equivalent would be a 1973 Formula SD-455, or perhaps a 1968 RAII Bird.

Damn cool car. I hope whoever buys it does the full resto in the original Palladium Silver/Black Top combo. And if they do, it will surely get make the cover of HPP along with a full article.

This car SHOULD be worth $175K all done, similar to what 1969 Yenko Camaros bring. Someday that may happen. I think the collector market has really awakened to 1969 Firebirds now as an alternative to the boiler plate Camaros in their collections. A few 1969 Firebird 400 cars have sold for $40K-$75K in recent years.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

I think what people are saying is that without the RAIV driveline, you're buying a $7,000-$10,000 1969 Firebird 400 for $40,000. Is it worth the extra $30,000 for the paperwork of it being a RAIV car? Depends on what you want to do with it.

It will cost another $20K to get a real RAIV engine (Firebird codes), trans, and rear end (and that may be cheap, just an guesstimate). You can restamp everything and call it a day, but that will be a tough sell at auction I think. Another $3000 for the Ram Air pans, hardware, scoops assembly. Now if you want to leave it that, you have $60K into a 1969 RAIV Bird, which is reasonable if you ask me.

And there's NOTHING wrong with leaving it at that, but....

To do this thing justice, because this is a highly desirable Pontiac, it will need to be professionally restored. That means stripping the body, painting it the right color, adding a vinyl top, etc. Body and paint work can be $10,000, but we all know that a car like this needs "the Yenko treatment", it needs a top notch restorer, not a corner body shop guy. This will cost another $50K for a reputable restorer to do this thing right, to do it to a level that will bring big bucks.

So we're at $110K now all done, and I think that's realistic.

In a different economy, the car may be worth $150K, but based on recent sales of a 1969 RAIV Trans Am at $135K, and RAIV Judges, I think $100K might be pushing it. The days of a $250K 1970 RAIV Trans Am and a $500K 1970 Judge ragtop are history.

For me personally, this would be THE coolest car to restore. I think anyone with a 69 Bird, whether it's a 6-cyl, 350, 400, Ram Air, or Trans Am, understands that a 1969 RAIV Firebird 400 is THE Holy Grail of Pontiac muscle. The only other equivalent would be a 1973 Formula SD-455, or perhaps a 1968 RAII Bird.

Damn cool car. I hope whoever buys it does the full resto in the original Palladium Silver/Black Top combo. And if they do, it will surely get make the cover of HPP along with a full article.

This car SHOULD be worth $175K all done, similar to what 1969 Yenko Camaros bring. Someday that may happen. I think the collector market has really awakened to 1969 Firebirds now as an alternative to the boiler plate Camaros in their collections. A few 1969 Firebird 400 cars have sold for $40K-$75K in recent years.

well said
that was my point exactly as I looked at the realistic numbers not some pie in the sky one.
why would this be worth more than a real #s RAIV TA?

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

I think what people are saying is that without the RAIV driveline, you're buying a $7,000-$10,000 1969 Firebird 400 for $40,000. Is it worth the extra $30,000 for the paperwork of it being a RAIV car? Depends on what you want to do with it.

The car stands on it's own, even without the original drive line. Here is the reason - take that same $20,000 drive line & put it in any 7-10k 69 Firebird & what do you have? A $27,000 car that's going to be parted in short order.

Would a 69 TA be only worth 10k if you removed it's RA III/IV motor & hood? Would a Judge convertible only be worth 20k if you took out the RA III/IV455HO motor and the wing? These cars are all special & rare on their own and are worth far more than the sum of their parts.

That is a hard loaded 1969 RAM AIR IV, 4spd Firebird 400 and would be the solid anchor of ANYBODY's Pontiac collection with or without the original block!

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by The Boss

The car stands on it's own, even without the original drive line. Here is the reason - take that same $20,000 drive line & put it in any 7-10k 69 Firebird & what do you have? A $27,000 car that's going to be parted in short order.

Would a 69 TA be only worth 10k if you removed it's RA III/IV motor & hood? Would a Judge convertible only be worth 20k if you took out the RA III/IV455HO motor and the wing? These cars are all special & rare on their own and are worth far more than the sum of their parts.

That is a hard loaded 1969 RAM AIR IV, 4spd Firebird 400 and would be the solid anchor of ANYBODY's Pontiac collection with or without the original block!

well said. anyone who makes comments like the vin and tags etc... obviously is totally clueless and probably doesnt have the ability to buy even a 7 - 10k car anyway.

[74SDformula]

Originally Posted by turbo69bird

SD I was gonna shoot you a message but your PMs are full. Clear that Biotch!

Fire away when ready.

[Nickv]

Nice car, but overpriced for a car that no longer has it's orginal drivetrain, or paint.

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

well said. anyone who makes comments like the vin and tags etc... obviously is totally clueless and probably doesnt have the ability to buy even a 7 - 10k car anyway.

LOL, we're all entitled to our opinions. Some comments are meant to stir up debate and comment, which it did.

For what it's worth, one can buy a nice Skylark Custom Convertible from 1970-1971 for 9K-12K. Not high on a collector's list, but a decent looking drivable car. Drop in a 455 in place of the 350 and you can have some fun.

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by The Boss

The car stands on it's own, even without the original drive line. Here is the reason - take that same $20,000 drive line & put it in any 7-10k 69 Firebird & what do you have? A $27,000 car that's going to be parted in short order.

Would a 69 TA be only worth 10k if you removed it's RA III/IV motor & hood? Would a Judge convertible only be worth 20k if you took out the RA III/IV455HO motor and the wing? These cars are all special & rare on their own and are worth far more than the sum of their parts.

That is a hard loaded 1969 RAM AIR IV, 4spd Firebird 400 and would be the solid anchor of ANYBODY's Pontiac collection with or without the original block!

I guess my question would then be, when is a '69 TA no longer a '69 TA?(Which is why I went to the absurd end of just a VIN and Body Tag) Without it's motor and hood, doesn't it become a personal question? I understand the appeal of a fully intact car, it's when it isn't that I have questions. This as I'm in the process of doing something that you note above. Well, for a lot fewer dollars and it will never be noted by me as anything other than what it is, a clone.

[J GLASGO]

That car would be cool put back to stock.I would love to have it,and would love to do it.I would hate to pay 30-40k to buy it,but when done,i think it would be a very desireable car.I have never even seen a 69 RA4 Bird!

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by wovenweb

I guess my question would then be, when is a '69 TA no longer a '69 TA?(Which is why I went to the absurd end of just a VIN and Body Tag) Without it's motor and hood, doesn't it become a personal question? I understand the appeal of a fully intact car, it's when it isn't that I have questions. This as I'm in the process of doing something that you note above. Well, for a lot fewer dollars and it will never be noted by me as anything other than what it is, a clone.

I believe both the body & the engine carry a value unto themselves that is not lost without the other. How much of the body must be present is without doubt a personal question but not in this case where the body is fully intact.

For crying out loud - it's a killer car even if it was just a Firebird 400!

[MikeNoun]

That's why I say this car is not overpriced IF you want to go the whole "Yenko" route and restore it properly. The car deserves a full resto by a pro. It will be pure speculation to say it would sell for $100K (finished) at this point, but you never know.

Is a Firebird RAIV worth more than a Trans Am RAIV?

For me, yes. Others may disagree.

I think collectors occasionally like to get away from the single color scheme combo and go for something different. Not taking anything away from the 69 T/A, a Carousel red 69 Judge, 68 Hurst/Olds, 69 Hurst/Olds, etc, but sometimes a SD-455 Formula, 69 Bird RAIV, 69 GTO RAIV, or a black 69 W-30 ragtop draws more attention.

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by The Boss

For crying out loud - it's a killer car even if it was just a Firebird 400!

I'm definitely in agreement on that!


Thanks to all for your comments on this, it definitely helps me shape my own opinion around what I find desirable in a car. I would love to have a one of the 12 '68 Ram Air II Firebird automatics in completely stock form, but honestly it's out of my budget and who knows when and if one will ever be available.

[ramair2]

Mike,

Whoa...

Your comment about this car concourse/fully done at 110K vs that recent -non- concourse 69 RA IV auto TA sale at 140K (with commission) is not a fair one...

I know people (incl the new owner as well as other PY members) who crawled all over the Mecum IV TA....and in the new owner's words (not mine) that auto IV TA has multiple issues and needs about 80K to be concourse.

So.... lets re-do that math...140K+80K....220K (for an automatic 69 RA IV TA that had multiple panel replacement over the years)

vs 110K for a non matching/replacement drivetrain, concours 1969 RA IV bird....

Now THAT comparison is the one that has to be made....

Gotta get the details right before we go apples to apples!

[74SDformula]

Originally Posted by TH65

I looked at this RAIV Firebird yesterday, it belongs to a friend locally, as it sits its a nice running driver car but does need a restoration if a buyer wants to bring it back to RAIV status. It has had quarter panels put on it. The owner was contacted by someone who know a possible race history on it. Owner was asked to check for yellow paint under the black and also for 2 holes on firewall that previously had an ingnition box on it, both the yellow paint and the 2 holes are there plus the obvious frame connectors. Owner was told car had some rear wheelwell flares on it when raced and was painted red & yellow, probably explains why the quarters were replaced. The owner is still investigated this possible race history.

Any more info on the possible race history?

[muscle_collector]

if this is the auto ra4 that i am remembering, when did it regain its original engine?

[wovenweb]

Originally Posted by muscle_collector

if this is the auto ra4 that i am remembering, when did it regain its original engine?

It didn't, to quote the eBay ad: "It is driver quality and DOES NOT have the original drive line. It has an early 70's rebuilt 455, 4 speed, 3.08 10 bolt rear differential."

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by wovenweb

It didn't, to quote the eBay ad: "It is driver quality and DOES NOT have the original drive line. It has an early 70's rebuilt 455, 4 speed, 3.08 10 bolt rear differential."

I dont think he was talking about the subject car