[dmac]

Would it be possible to enlarge the chambers from 72 cc to maybe ~78- 80 on these? I'd like to wait until the 85 cc version comes out, but this price is making want to click on the 'buy now' button.

[jamaca85]

He finally got it down to the "what the hell "price guess I'll get a set...

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Mike Davis

Pontiac people are cheap, plain and simple.

Amen!

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Murf

I’d like someone with experience to post how much a guy would have in a completely built set of stock heads. New valve, springs, guides etc. Setup for about .600 lift. Anybody have a ballpark figure?

Thanks
Murf


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Costs a minimum of about $800-$1000, to do it right, with stainless valves, etc. That does not include any porting, nor the core heads.

Butler & SD price starts at around $2k for complete ported 6X heads.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234782

http://www.sdperformance.com/viewPro...?productID=583

Guessing that Len Williams could build you a set of unported 6X heads about as cheap as any of the well known Pontiac engine builders. Probably cheaper than most, since he uses 'em for 400 & 455 long block builds.

http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/400_Long_Block.html

Probably machine shop guys here who have done some iron heads recently, who can provide details & prices.

There are always rebuilt Pontiac heads for sale, here, on Ebay, & other places. But, most of the time you just don't know what kind of quality work you're getting. I found it almost impossible to sell my running 11 sec 455 bracket engine. Finally had to sell for a very small fraction of what it would cost to build one equal to it.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I'm one that cannot see any reason whatsoever why an olds or an AMC head is much closer to the price of a SBC head. In all these years there has never been any plausible reason as to why there is so much disparity and that a Pontiac head is almost the highest priced cylinder head in the performer series of heads.

Paul K, I'm all ears as to why there is such a disparity. Perhaps you being in the retail end of the aftermarket you can shed some light on why a pair of lower demand olds or AMC heads should be $400-$800 cheaper per pair? I'm not being a smart ass, I really want to know the reason why. If anyone can give me a commonsense reason that proves out, then they've shown me that there is a reason besides greed on the manufacturers end...…………

So far it's all subjection on pricing, I'd like a concrete answer...

I don't have any idea how they figure their pricing. I'd think BOP and AMC heads would share similar pricing because they are low volume. However when the cheerleader captain would not go out with me in High School, I waisted no time questioning why and dated the co-captain. I wouldn't let my thoughts that I feel a part is over priced make me miss the oppurtunity of obtaining something that will help accomplish my goals.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

"...So how many $1500 blocks do you realistically think would be purchased?"

I don't have a clue.

But, from what I've read on this & other Pontiac sites, a good core block, and all the machine work required to do it right, will cost that same $1500, or more.

I'm not a machinist. So, I don't know what machine shop charges are. But I remember reading that Paul Carter does all sorts of stuff to a core block. Seems the deck has to squared with the crank, and possibly the main journals honed, oil passages & plugs done, etc, etc, etc. Just a guess that all this work, plus the cost of a good 400 core block would be more than $1500.

But, I'd like to see estimates from guys here who know for sure what is required & the costs.

Just for comparison, Butler gets nearly $4k for a ready to assemble shortblock kit. They sell the rotating assembly for less than $2k. So, they're charging over $2k for the machined block.

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234783

Len Williams charges $3800 for a 400 block stroker shortblock. So, I figure he's charging over $1500 for the core block & all the machine work.

http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/455_Short_Block.html

So, I figure the guys who will pay these prices, would gladly pay $1500 for a brand new block, if the quality is equal to or better than an 40+ year old re-machined block.

Some of the old blocks won't stand any larger bore size. Some have lots of corrosion damage. Some have had lots of material cut off the deck, during previous rebuilds. Some don't have the correct holes needed for both 2 & 3-bolt motor mounts.

I just think a GOOD quality $1500 Pontiac block would sell & encourage some guys to go with Pontiac, rather than some sort of Chevy power. Will they sell as good as Chevy blocks ? Of course not. Will they sell fast enuff for a guy to turn a quick profit, no.

There have been lots of guys post that good Pontiac blocks do not exist in the area where they live. And, there are lots of old Pontiac guys that have hoarded up all the cheap Pontiac blocks they have run across, for the last 30 years or longer. These are, no doubt, 2 reasons why some guys have decided to go with Chevy power.

So much for conversation....lets all just stand on our soap box and preach about what others should do for us because we want something.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Murf

I’d like someone with experience to post how much a guy would have in a completely built set of stock heads. New valve, springs, guides etc. Setup for about .600 lift. Anybody have a ballpark figure?

Thanks
Murf


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$800-$1200 depending on parts.... In the Chicagoland area

[Murf]

Thanks guys! That’s about what I thought it would be. I hope the Speedmaster’s turn out to be a good head.

I bought a pair of bare ones. I just thought I’d feel better with known quality valves & springs. Who knows?

Murf


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[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

So much for conversation....lets all just stand on our soap box and preach about what others should do for us because we want something.

Just to add to the conversation. I wonder if it has to do with already having a block, or easy access to one.

The guys building a pontiac that don't have a pontiac engine probably aren't doing a factory correct restoration. It may just be a fun build, or a pro-touring or drag car.

How many of those guys will simply just go to an LS/LT?

Kind of makes you wonder if there's even a market for such a block, at least at this time. The guys that want to, or need to make big power have a couple options. Everyone else can either use the block/s they have or may have easier access to.

[grivera]

Butler's iron head packages start at $1,995: https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234782

Pontiac Cast Iron Cylinder Head

BP ports more Pontiac cylinder heads than anyone in the world. After years of extensive R&D both on the flow bench and on our track, we have developed some of the best performing round port and D-port cast iron Pontiac cylinder heads ever. These heads can be ported for optimum performance on a 450 HP street engine or a 700+ HP racing engine, and everything in between. We have ported D-Port heads that run low tens in 3,700 lbs. stock suspension street GTO's to heads that run 8.50's in a 2,400 lbs. bracket car. We also specialize in porting RAII, RAIV, H.O. and S.D. round port heads.

The port work includes fully ported intake and exhaust ports, de-burred chambers, pushrod holes elongated for 1.65 rockers, and removal of excess casting material in oil drain back areas. We can use your heads or we can provide cores. We keep most casting numbers in stock. (Core charges vary with casting numbers-call for availability.)

A valve job is highly recommended after porting, even if your heads have been recently worked. BP can do the port work only or port work and valve job combination. Your heads will be completely built and returned ready to bolt on. All BP heads come with a blueprint sheet and flow chart.

Performance Cast Iron D-Port Head Package
6X Heads (other numbers available)
Milling optional / additional charge (let us know your desired compression ratio)
Completely ported and polished (starting @ 240+ cfm)
Competition 3 angle valve job done with our Serdi machine
FULL bronze guides (not liners)
Ferrea Stainless Steel valves
Surfaced on all 3 sides
Retainers & HD valve locks
Tall dual springs
New 5/16 guide plates
7/16 rocker arm studs
HP valve seals
Blue printed and assembled per application
Comes with Blueprint and spec sheets.
__________________

[mgarblik]

A cheap aftermarket block would be really great. Here is why it's likely not going to happen. Where and how are you going to take half the cost out of it? Cast iron is cheap, cheap, cheap. So little savings there. Take 50 lbs. out of the casting, save $50.00? Core cost would remain the same, core box cost would remain the same. Lower the quality of the iron, save another $50.00? Use cast iron caps and crap hardware, save another $200.00? OK now your $3000.00 block is $2700.00 and a marginal piece. The ONLY way I can see substantial savings is to have them cast in China, and that's no guarantee of huge savings. There is an FE Ford block cast in China and a really nice casting. I have been involved in a build of one. It was still over 3K for the block, cast in China. Steel caps though. Chevy blocks are cheap because thousands of them are made and sold every year.

[74Grandville]

I bought a set, but I have no idea when I’ll actually use them. They’ll look nice on the shelf as I dream of more hp. May use them in a couple yrs with the rate at which I move with my hobby. I couldn’t pass up on the price...


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[phil400]

I'm not a real player compared to you guys on here but I could see a couple of things holding the sale of these heads back from a street car perspective. And its has nothing to do with who made, quality or whatever.

They are round port, the majority of guys are running d-port, so to run these you're talking new headers as well.

They are only available in 72cc, guys running 455+ cubes with Iron heads and flat tops can't just plop them on now and go and still run pump gas.

Ironically the 72cc heads would be perfect for a 400 but they have big 215cc runners which isn't ideal for anyone still running 400s.

If they had a head with a 215cc runner at 87~90cc
And a 72cc head with a 175cc runner at these prices in d-port, bet they'd sell alot more.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Just to add to the conversation. I wonder if it has to do with already having a block, or easy access to one.

The guys building a pontiac that don't have a pontiac engine probably aren't doing a factory correct restoration. It may just be a fun build, or a pro-touring or drag car.

How many of those guys will simply just go to an LS/LT?

Kind of makes you wonder if there's even a market for such a block, at least at this time. The guys that want to, or need to make big power have a couple options. Everyone else can either use the block/s they have or may have easier access to.

I'm not sure on the LS conversion. I've saved a couple from going that route and they've been totally happy with their Pontiac engines. I my area a Pontiac core isn't hard to come by... but neither are LS engines.

I doubt you'll see a "Sportsman" style block and really don't think there is a need for one. You can make more 600 hp naturally aspirated and have the block live forever. You can make 900 with a power adder and have the block live a very long time. Another concern is, this industry isn't headed in a good direction. Most of the performance companies are being bought by investment groups whose only concern is bottom line profits. All they earned from four years in collage is raise prices and cut costs. The problem is most these companies they're destroying were found by folks that formed the business to solve a need and profits fell into place by selling a quality part that performed a purpose... Another reason a junkyard LS engine seems appealing, but you run into the same issues once you start building to to make more power.

[P@blo]

Not everyone runs a 455 and your post is spot on Phil.

[Murf]

Is a 215 cc intake port really too large for a 400 + CID engine?
I have seen this posted several times recently.
Are there any builders that have had success with E heads on 400 based engines?

Thanks
Murf


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[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Murf

Is a 215 cc intake port really too large for a 400 + CID engine?
I have seen this posted several times recently.
Are there any builders that have had success with E heads on 400 based engines?

Thanks
Murf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The road racing guy here had a set of alum KRE D-ports built for his 350. So, if they'll work on a 350, they'll surely work on a 400.

But, I don't know about those SM heads.

[P@blo]

Wouldn't it depend more on the intended rpm use of the car? A smaller cube, heavy, modestly geared automatic is going to like an efficient port. We are talking street engines aren't we?

[Murf]

Originally Posted by P@blo

Wouldn't it depend more on the intended rpm use of the car? A smaller cube, heavy, modestly geared automatic is going to like an efficient port. We are talking street engines aren't we?

Point taken. This is the Street section. I was actually thinking of a Street/Strip setup. Car under 3500 lbs probably 3:73 gears and an OD trans. Still to big?

Thanks
Murf


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[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Any thoughts on why no one has stepped to the plate and produced a budget based Pontiac block that can be sold for $1500?

To have the block cast here in the U.S., you are going to have to cast at least 1,000 units to get a cost that low. If it’s like everything else new in the Pontiac world, the jackals will pronounce it garbage BEFORE they even see one, let alone machine or build one.