[scott cedergren]

Another deal on e-rape.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PONTI...Q5fAccessories

[79bluebird]

um yeah just a tad on the high side.

[HotCat_63]

Unfortunately thats what they go for, to bad they arent a matched set!

One with an early style exhaust flange the other a later.

Hey Greg will you sell them on Lay-Away?

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by 79bluebird

um yeah just a tad on the high side.

Considering how few were made and over 40 years time thats NOT an unreasonable price to ASK.(hey hes throwin other stuff in with them) Yeah that might seem shockingly high for a 26 year olds typical salary. My kids are your age they too are getting to the reality stage. Consider this stuff incentive to do what it takes to make things like this possible for yourself. I only find these heads for sale when I have my $$ tied up in other things. If they were for sale a year ago I might have sprung for them. With my losses back in the fall it would have been near the same hit.(except Id have something to show for it)

[tom s]

they belong to Greg of this site.More than I would pay but have seen them go for more.Tom

[Steve Barcak]

I hope he gets what he wants for them. Free enterprise right? More power to him.
I wish my alum V block would have sold a few weeks back on ebay. It just didn't go where I thought it would.
I like the V stuff but decided relatively early in my adult life to avoid them partly because of their expense but, mainly because they were made in cast iron and much harder to modify and weld. As a racer, could not imagine damaging one and trying to get it repaired as hard as cast iron is to repair and weld on.
Still, how cool it would have been if Pontiac could have/would have made a 455 Ram Air V for the '70 GTO!
I like the separate ex port arrangement, that is my favorite feature of them.

Steve

Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgic Show and Go! and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[6 Grrrs]

geez

I would love a set, but will never be able to afford them.

[Wareagle]

Originally Posted by Steve Barcak

I hope he gets what he wants for them. Free enterprise right? More power to him.
I wish my alum V block would have sold a few weeks back on ebay. It just didn't go where I thought it would.
I like the V stuff but decided relatively early in my adult life to avoid them partly because of their expense but, mainly because they were made in cast iron and much harder to modify and weld. As a racer, could not imagine damaging one and trying to get it repaired as hard as cast iron is to repair and weld on.
Still, how cool it would have been if Pontiac could have/would have made a 455 Ram Air V for the '70 GTO!
I like the separate ex port arrangement, that is my favorite feature of them.

Steve

Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgic Show and Go! and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

Or a 70 T/A 455 RAM AIR V .

[scott cedergren]

I agree that RAV stuff is very cool I guess that I see it as so far out of reach for the normal guy that it is sad. I wish that Edelbrock, KRE, or someone that has the ability to cast some RAV heads would see that people are willing to buy them. Do other people think that RAV parts would sell. If I could get a set for the price of two sets of Edelbrock heads I would own them!

[MescaBug]

The RAM AIR V heads are very well designed. The size of the ports is quite amazing, and the foils around the pushrods is a neat feature. I wish they would have make more of them, or use these features as a basic manufacturing design on other heads as well.

I'm pretty sure nobody will ever make repros of the RAV heads. These are jewels of the Pontiac industry, you don't want to take that away from Pontiac. Everybody knows they are the holy grail of Pontiac head design, somebody would have done it already.. we see a lot a reproduction parts for RAIV, because there is a lot more RAIV cars than RAV cars. Return on investment vs manufacturing cost will be low in my opinion.

Even if somebody would make some aluminium castings, original heads would still be sold for large amount. It's just not the performance that makes the price, but the rarity. If performance is needed, there is a lot of better brand new heads in the market... Having an incomplete RAV car is cool, but very very uncool for the wallet...

Don't know if you guys saw the RAV engine build up in the last HPP mag, but if I remember correctly, 40000$ was spent on the engine only. And we're not talking about an all-out-performance race engine, but a 'basic' original RAV build.. Damn, you can get a complete RAIV car for that price..

[Steve Barcak]

"geez

I would love a set, but will never be able to afford them."

Well, that would apply to 100,000 other people too right?
*************************************************

"Or a 70 T/A 455 RAM AIR V ."
I purposely left out the '70 T/A because GM lifted the cubic limit in '70 for intermediates.
It wasn't until '71 that the cu inch limit was raised on "F"s.

************************************************** *****
"The RAM AIR V heads are very well designed. The size of the ports is quite amazing, and the foils around the pushrods is a neat feature. I wish they would have make more of them, or use these features as a basic manufacturing design on other heads as well."

That is your opinion and you are intitled to that. Others will agree but, many more others will highly disagree. I think if they were any good, Pontiac would have made more of them.
They did not do all that well with Ford or Pontiac. Most who have messed with them over the years have been VERY disappointed with them. Now they have become much more of a collector deal than a racer deal and that is where they belong. Non one has done really well with them in racing unless they were extensively modified or redesigned.
They just did not work that well in racing. They are great for the parking lot, 'cruiser' set with their lawn chairs to talk about them but, you do not see them at the track. Tri-powers are kinda the same way ( except they are not rare like the V stuff). They have a great wow factor but, disappoint in HP.

Steve

Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgic Show and Go! and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[gregsgtos2]

if they dont sell,i will do something with them later.i took the rav heads yesterday and had them shot tumbled.they look like brand new now.

[Steve Barcak]

Good luck with them Greg. I sincerely hope you get your price.
Not sure why all the "V" threads end up in the race section? It really does not belong here. They are not raced. None of the buyers are planning on 'racing' them.

These are collector, restorer parts.


Maybe the admins do not know where to put them?

Other than Tom S. Everyone else just wants to look at them and say they own, or did own some. Even Toms car is a nice street car, still not a race car. I wonder if anyone will ever build a V for a performance or racing application? You know, if they are so good, more guys with money would be using them. Still wish they could have been made in alum. That would have changed a lot of options with them.

Steve
Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgic Show and Go! and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[GTOGEORGE]

I would LOVE to put a set of RA 5 heads on my BLOWN 534" Pontiac and go Rat and Hemi hunting!

GTO George

[Silver Judge]

[QUOTE=Steve Barcak;3528077]" I think if they were any good, Pontiac would have made more of them.
They did not do all that well with Ford or Pontiac. Most who have messed with them over the years have been VERY disappointed with them. Now they have become much more of a collector deal than a racer deal and that is where they belong. Non one has done really well with them in racing unless they were extensively modified or redesigned.
They just did not work that well in racing. They are great for the parking lot, 'cruiser' set with their lawn chairs to talk about them but, you do not see them at the track. Tri-powers are kinda the same way ( except they are not rare like the V stuff). They have a great wow factor but, disappoint in HP.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Steve, out of curiosity, what info do you have on RAV heads in a racing application?
Have you worked with them yourself or know others that have ?
Any info on how RAV heads do with a full race port job on them, mated to a good strong bottom end, either normally aspirated or perhaps with forced induction ?
Is there really that much info out there about them ? If so, I'd bet that others are curious like I am.

I've only heard about a few road race applications (small cubic inch motors, TA series) and I think there's a guy that is running a turbo charged RAV in a firebird somewhere in the southern U.S. that is street driven but also taken to the track.

[Steve Barcak]

"Steve, out of curiosity, what info do you have on RAV heads in a racing application?"


please elborate on this question for me to answer


"Have you worked with them yourself or know others that have ?"

No, not myself. My brother had a pair in the 70s and I have had a few close friends who either still own them or have owned them. I made the decision in the late 70s ( once I was able to afford them) Not to buy or use them for racing applications because I do not think they are a good choice. The other people I know have not used them over the decades.
Others have, Pete McCarthy as one did not like them. HO racings Hendrickson and Osterstock did not like them. Nunzi seemed to like them but has not gone quicker with them than others have with round ports. Beswick tried them in Pro stock with his Judge and was not competitive either.
Jerry Stienbrick of Ohio has probably had to most success with them ( in making power) in the 80s but, have seen nothing of him being competitive in his class with them.

Never seen or heard from anyone who has used the V in a blown application except for Beswick and Gay. Neither of who were competitive with them and both switched to 426 Chryslers after short stints with Vs.

Mike Garblick and Eric Larson are now building a "V" powered blown funny car but, the heads they are using is nothing like what this thread is about. They are not cast iron Pontiac V heads. Their car is not done yet but, I am confident it will do well. Still, it is being built primarily as an exhibition and match race car, not to compete in a class. Of course, there is a BIG "B..I...G" difference in the two. I think their car would go just as quick with a standard port arrangement. Of course, I understand WHY they are building a v arrangement, it is also a simliar reason as to WHY they will have Arnies name on the side. It is for wow factor and more $$$$ and interest ( smart marketing ). The V head does have the advantage of separate exhaust ports which is good for blown nitro racing but, I know of no V owners who are building a V for use with blowers and nitro and I bet you do not either. The Garblick and Larson heads are custom alum billets that are very different in many ways than what Pontiac cast their Vs.

The Trans Am series cars did not do well with them either and went to round ports and ran better.

I have heard of several V powered bracket cars over the decades, never heard of one of them running any better than a round port engine. Some went slower than a round port engine.

Tom S has done well with his v street car. Modified the heads for better street use but, that is not racing.
I've studied and read, and talked to Pontiac people daily since before 1975. I have messed with nothing other than Pontiacs though I have studied and learned about the competition.


"Any info on how RAV heads do with a full race port job on them, mated to a good strong bottom end, either normally aspirated or perhaps with forced induction ?"

I am sure they could do well with the above. I have not said they are worthless, hardly..
Anything can be made to run if you put enought time and money into it. I just feel, based on what I have seen and heard and learned, that a round port engine can run quicker than a V engine can. Most would agree.

The problem is not only in the heads but the related parts. The manifold is worthless for a racing application.the intake ports are huge ad impressive to google at. But, with the tubes inserted, that kills the size and creates mucho turbulence ( not good). The port is also very low, if it was higher, it would have made the port straighter and better. From a common sense view, On the intake, you have a huge port with a tube put in the middle creating turbulence, that has to make a sharp bend to get to the valve.
On the exhaust, you have a fairly normal exhaust flow.
Some more creative guys have cut the exhaust port off to shorten it and help to incease the exh flow and ratio between intake and exhaust. This has been played with on V stuff since they came out.
M/T started raising exhaust ports on Pontiacs around 1960. Others have followed him in doing that. This would include me. My heads have raised exhaust ports.

"Is there really that much info out there about them ? If so, I'd bet that others are curious like I am."
There really is but, not all in the same place. I have seen, talked to and read everything I could now for 40 years.
They are not junk by any means. They can be made to work well but, whether or not is is practical to do so on something made of cast iron and so valuable is up to those who own them. You can see these parts have gone from racers, or would be racers, over the years and decades.... to collectors primarily.

"I've only heard about a few road race applications (small cubic inch motors, TA series)."
yes, that is true. However, there were no successful ones.
For every V that made good at the track, there is probably 10 or 15 of them that did not.

" and I think there's a guy that is running a turbo charged RA
V in a firebird somewhere in the southern U.S. that is street driven but also taken to the track."
I have seen that car too. I looks pretty cool. As best I know, he is the only one with plans to race. If I remember well, it has raised exhaust ports too. I have sure it is fast...or can be fast. But, it will not be fast BECAUSE of the V heads. It could be just as fast, or faster, with convention Pontiac port arrangement heads.

I hope I answered your questions.

I too, would like to see a list of V powered Pontiacs who either set records, won races, or were at least very competive in an established racing class. Not brackets, not indexes, etc.
the list would be very short, or non exisitent at all.
If anyone reading this has documented proof of a V Pontiac that has done the above, please add here.
Steve
Hosting 11th annual Pontiac Heaven, show, swap, drags, party and all around good time. Saturday April 4, 2009 at Speedworld near Phoenix, Az
Also hosting- 7th annual Nostalgic Show and Go! and swap coming Sunday April 5, 2009 to Speedworld. Phoenix, Az

[GTOGEORGE]

For Forced Induction the BIGGER the ports the BIGGER the Power.


GTO George

[dci]

TomS give me a call at the shop please.

Thanks,
Don Johnston
DCI MOTORSPORTS INC.
330-628-3354
Designer of the TIGER Heads

[Elarson]

I can't offer timeslips or anything like that, but here's a few factors that lead up to our decision to use the V heads as a basis for our project.

1) Arnie reports that switching his blown, nitro engine from ported Ram Air IV to out-of-the-box Ram Air V immediately picked the car up several tenths. We don't know if the cam timing was changed, etc, but it's interesting. Then.....modern nitro experts have advised us that port flow is not as important as big port volume; due to the large amount of liquid fuel. Ram Air V intake ports are commonly considered "too big".......but that's always been in reference to NA engines.

2) Separate exhaust ports are considered a "must" by modern nitro experts.

3) Mike flowed a Ram Air V on the flowbench and it had well-behaved flow that just kept rising all the way up to .900 lift.

4) They're just irresistibly cool.

We would never consider using collector's item parts on the track, There's too much chance of destroying a part of history.

For what it's worth...

Eric

[Elarson]

Oops...I just re-read my post and decided that it could possibly be interpreted as being critical of Steve's approach with M/T hemi heads. Quite the opposite...I admire his approach....variety is definitely good here.

BTW Steve: thanks for the parts and advice on the blower drive setup. It's coming together nicely.

Eric