#21  
Old 05-19-2022, 12:25 AM
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unruhjonny unruhjonny is offline
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Guys, I wanted to stay out of this;
But after a half dozen posts, I'd feel like an arse to stay completely silent.

I have spoken with "jhein" a bunch offline, and will say that he seems like a real good guy.

Could I ask that this other WS motor discussion please be dropped;
It's his motor, and none of us have any say in what he does with it.
His car may not have it's numbers matching motor, but this engine is numbers correct - and regaurdless, he has decided to keep it.
I think it's prudent to keep a correct motor for this car around.

I will also stick my neck out to say this;
Some of what I came to understand seperate from this forum made it seem like that other discussion quite possibly wasn't as it was being presented publicly.

What's that old saying(?);
If it seems too good to be true, that's probably because it isn't true.

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
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  #22  
Old 05-19-2022, 01:32 AM
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turbo69bird turbo69bird is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellyshavilli View Post
It isn’t that you were looking, it’s that it was found and reuniting such a RARE car with its numbers matching motor is both rare and an honor. That’s how I feel anyway
I’m VERY impressed with this post.
It’s impressive that one would feel this way. Maybe after the car is together something will change . If it doesn’t that’s up to the engines current owner, it sucks but I’m sure there’s a reason .( Maybe the owner of that engine only trusts that machine shop or whatever. )
I know I’d sure like to have my original block if I could find it, so I certainly feel for the owner of the car that is missing it
At the same time I’m sure the owner of the engine has his reasons . Let’s hope that there’s a solution there somewhere .

I kind of wish I hadn’t asked (first) now but I’m sure someone else would have, and I didn’t know anything about the former talks about the correct vin block and car being reunited .

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  #23  
Old 05-19-2022, 02:06 AM
BirdBrain BirdBrain is offline
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"Could I ask that this other WS motor discussion please be dropped;"


The WS is the elephant in the room.... As I initially stated, I am very happy that a bad ass motor is going into his car, but its really hard to argue sympathy in a situation where one has the ability to reunite a motor with the born with car, when money isn't a factor AND another WS could be used in its place. I can read between the lines and see there are some feelings here probably on both sides, but someone could mediate a deal here.

If not, the original post is accurate. It IS a sad day.

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  #24  
Old 05-19-2022, 09:08 AM
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I've been avoiding this discussion because in order for me to defend myself I'd have to say some things about other members that I don't want to have to say. And I'm still not going down that path. All I'll say is that I decided not to sell and I have good reasons.

I think it's interesting the way that some people seem eager to attack me here. Accusing me of taunting people and even invoking Voodoo curses on me and my car. That's pretty hilarious actually. Makes me wonder who they are, and who their associates are, maybe posting under multiple names? Who knows.

As was said earlier, things are not always as they seem.

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  #25  
Old 05-19-2022, 10:29 AM
BirdBrain BirdBrain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhein View Post
I've been avoiding this discussion because in order for me to defend myself I'd have to say some things about other members that I don't want to have to say. And I'm still not going down that path. All I'll say is that I decided not to sell and I have good reasons.

I think it's interesting the way that some people seem eager to attack me here. Accusing me of taunting people and even invoking Voodoo curses on me and my car. That's pretty hilarious actually. Makes me wonder who they are, and who their associates are, maybe posting under multiple names? Who knows.

As was said earlier, things are not always as they seem.
...

You are on a public forum so you should expect feedback.. I didn't attack you. I just asked an extremely obvious question....why you have chosen not to give the man the motor for his car. Many people know me on the forum. Feel free to pm me and we can talk off line.

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  #26  
Old 05-19-2022, 11:18 AM
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vertigto vertigto is offline
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Maybe someone who has another numbers correct (not matching) WS motor that is either rebuildable or professionally rebuilt can step forward.

Not knowing all the facts, that could possibly end this predicament.

Would be ironic if someone actually had the original engine from jhein's car.

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  #27  
Old 05-19-2022, 03:38 PM
Ramairnacho Ramairnacho is offline
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I give congrats for new engine.wohoo and congrats on wisdom of saving old engine. I own a 1970 formula 400 ra3 1 of 293 and if I had the yz block but not correct to my car and it's mine . I don't think I'd sell it because what if new engine breaks or I decide to go back to the yz engine? The ram air 3 and for blocks are hard to find. Gto guys rape trans ams and Firebirds for engines. So it's smart of him to keep it. And if you don't like my opinion I don't care. This is some of our hobbies but some of you,it's your job! Why bring up his Block ?is it for sale? No ,you guys are begging for it! Grow the f up. Go flip a pinto. He is group member and make him feel welcome!

  #28  
Old 05-19-2022, 06:36 PM
jerry455 jerry455 is offline
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I have a question, you said you got the small-bore IA block. Why did you not get the bigger one? I don't know all of the differences between the IA blocks but I would love to have over 500 cubes. I am sure you have a reason. I am just trying to learn more about the IA blocks. I wish my wife would let me afford one, LOL. That is going to be a fantastic ride when you are finished. I can't wait to see the finished project.

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Old 05-19-2022, 06:40 PM
Ramairnacho Ramairnacho is offline
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Me too!

  #30  
Old 05-19-2022, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry455 View Post
I have a question, you said you got the small-bore IA block. Why did you not get the bigger one? I don't know all of the differences between the IA blocks but I would love to have over 500 cubes. I am sure you have a reason. I am just trying to learn more about the IA blocks. I wish my wife would let me afford one, LOL. That is going to be a fantastic ride when you are finished. I can't wait to see the finished project.
There are two reasons. First, I already had a set of 4.185 pistons. Second, I should already easily be over 500 hp and 550+ tq. On street tires I don't know that it would make sense to go higher. Same reason I didn't port the heads an use 1.65 rockers.

Anyway, I hope it's a decent motor. Who knows, maybe I put together a horrible package and it will suck.

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  #31  
Old 05-19-2022, 09:05 PM
Ramairnacho Ramairnacho is offline
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Keep us posted!

  #32  
Old 05-20-2022, 01:12 AM
FASTASSBIRD FASTASSBIRD is offline
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Since I don’t think it’s a big secret that the car being discussed is mine I’ll finally give my 2 cents. A little back ground. The car is a Lucerne Blue ram air formula with deluxe interior 15 inch wheels and m-21/3.73 combo. 1 of 189 and possibly the most heavily optioned formula built in 1970 period. This car was LITERALLY given to me by another member on this forum as a gift for all the help I’ve given him over the years as we became good friends. The block is literally the only part missing at this point even original sandlewood interior has been reconditioned etc. Enough about that, Trying to remain neutral as humanly possible albiet virtually impossible being the cars owner, I have kept my mouth closed long enough. I spoke to John for over a half hour the day I realized his block was “my” block. My buddy his employee and my son were all in the truck at that time. He GENUINELY seems like a VERY nice guy. That being said, a deal was struck. I told him his price for the block was actually 2 cheap as it was BELOW what market value for a WS block is. To his credit, as he’s stated MULTIPLE times it isn’t about the money even after myself telling him he should ask for more. Since this has turned into a father son project my son and hell even my wife were excited at the fact the original motor was gonna be reunited. (She wants to document the restoration in a 70 only formula web/blog page and document the 70 only stuff for future restorations). Flash forward to 4 days later when I receive a text stating John changed his mind. I honestly respect that and even told him I totally understand wanting to have a correct WS block in the wings incase he decided to sell the car. I even went so far as to offer him ANOTHER WS block. To clean it magnaflux it and ship it to his machine shop and pay their fee to double check as well as paying his proposed cash price BEFORE he even pulled the other one. (Zero risk transaction on his end there). I feel this was both a good faith act and protected him from any misgivings. Sadly that block has moved to Australia and that owner (whom is also a member here and monitoring this thread as well) is very happy with it. I mention all that because to ME reading these post over the past few months I get the nagging itch that SOMEONE is running around behind the scenes speaking ill of me. I say this because up til now I’ve had ZERO interaction with John. My first experience was pleasant and good and my buddy (also a member here albiet new) can confirm that he felt he was a nice guy and stand up as well. So I ask myself what I’m 4 days could possibly go and derail a proposed transaction presented by not myself but the other party? All that comes to mind is SOMEONE is saying I’ve done them wrong etc. it was mentioned that “I'd have to say some things about other members that I don't want to have to say”. Well if it’s about me, you have MY permission to speak your mind. I’m a grown ass man and can accept your opinion and decisions even if I disagree with them (as is the case with this block and why I’ve kept my mouth shut so far). If others are asking to not be mentioned , maybe the question that needs to be asked is, WHY they don’t want to be named? Also no names be them real or screen need to even be given protecting the innocent or not so innocent. Me personally? I’d never take only one side of the story into consideration. The truth typically tends to lay in the middle of both sides. With the exception of a few. It’s been stated it’s NOT about the numbers etc. well this is being posted on a public forum that’s literally dedicated to the RESTORATION of these specific cars. A place where guys have liters spent DECADES of their lives researching helping and building correct cars. I can understand totally and RESPECT wanting to update the motor and ABSOLUTELY the trans and rearend to modern specs for drive ability. The problem that the “TRIBE” here is having is numbers matching is a HUGE deal to this particular crowd. Pick a body style it’s the same idk if it’s a Bonneville or a Judge. The chance to reunite ANY car with their original drivetrain is huge, add to that the absolute rarity and desirability of this particular car and we are no longer talking about a car but literally a piece of Pontiac museum level machinery. This is the source of the members posting WTF here. To us it is ALL about the numbers or we’d all have EFI 18 inch wheels coil overs and 6 speeds. It’s so important actually that if I had a certain members motor ( I hesitate to even bring this person up because part of the deal when he tried to screw me was I WOULDN’T talk about publicly as long as he gave me my fan shroud back but I feel given the topics involved it’s necessary I won’t mention him by name but many here are not fans of his.) to their car, DESPITE him making a 75 year old man sleep in his truck overnight in a Walmart parking lot waiting for said shroud I’m the sub zero weather a few years ago. If I had his block to say his IV car. I’d still sell it to him DESPITE my dislike of the man. I feel most members here feel the same way despite their dislike of jim. The car doesn’t deserve to suffer that’s for damn sure (matter of fact I ended up selling him a carb through a third party that needed parts he had. He bought the carb and traded for the parts. I knew this in advance and still did the deal. That should tell you a bit about my own character). The guys posting on this particular thread with the exception of one whom shall remain nameless (I’d sell him his original block too if I had it and he needed it and I REALLY don’t like him) are all members of this forum and have been a long long time. Sure I know some if not MOST of em, I think pretty much ALL of em will tell you the same thing about me as a person. I LOVE THESE CARS. I’ve spent the last 15 years studying the 70 learning the one year only parts etc searching for every single little piece from the plastic windshield eyebrows to one year only hood hinges to the saving a one year only sandlewood dash pad some thought couldn’t be saved because of my enthusiasm for the Firebird. To me it’s ALL about the numbers and I’ve dedicated a HUGE majority of my life to researching etc and I still don’t know as much as say Norwood Keith Telly RAIIITA FormulaBruce 1971455HO (or whatever Steve’s screen name is) but despite it all I’ll continue on doing it cause even though this motor has turn into a real **** show it’s the cars I love and I’ve made a heck of a lot of friends along the way. A couple of em insisting I travel back east to shows like the trans am nationals Carlisle etc. (little trip this August is in the world boys. Bringing my son and buddy with me gonna be a hoot I hope.) Speaking of which. Everyone here seems to know it’s my car with the exception of maybe a couple and they are all incredulous as to why a deal can’t be made. One might stop and ask oneself why are so many chiming in on this? This was said “Makes me wonder who they are, and who their associates are, maybe posting under multiple names? Who knows.” Most those accounts have 100’s if not 1000’s of posts and been active for YEARS if not decades. Go look at ALL their posts over the years and I think you’ll get a good idea of their character and personality as well as contributions to our hobby. Hell Norwood reproduced many of the one year only parts for us at damn near cost just to help. Telly has forgot more about these cars then almost all of us know. Keith is a source of info unlike anything we will EVER see again and **** Ole pinion head is arguably the most knowledgeable guy alive when it comes to the Pontiac drive train Formula Duce is more knowledgeable then most of us and is always here helping other members and NONE of em have a problem taking the time to help anyone with their projects. So while I personally know a few, all those accounts are just legitimate enthusiasts taking time out of their lives to help other enthusiasts. Me personally? I don’t need to post under other accounts. If I got an issue I’ll tell the whole damn world I have NO filter. Ask my wife she will HAPPILY confirm that. Just ask guys like Telly and Norwood. I’ll get into it with anyone and not lose a wink of sleep. Do it on the forum pages of Facebook ALL the time. Pretty sure there is a thread recently where I did it here with an idiot. I’ve kept quiet out of respect for John’s decision to not sell. I said on his other thread it’s his motor and no one can force him to do so and I stand by that. One doesn’t have to give a drowning victim CPR either. Until recently I accepted that he just didn’t want to be without a WS block incase he sold his car later. A decision I totally respect and even told him so and I stand by it. However based on posts in this thread I’m pretty sure that isn’t the real case. It’s basically been alluded to. To that my response is multi part. First. I respect it, I don’t like it and I think it’s wrong but I respect it. However if that isn’t the truth then I don’t respect it. Second, There are two sides to every story. If this is true. I can tell EVERYONE whatever the story, my side hasn’t been heard. I got no problem telling it though so please don’t hide what it is. I don’t mind facing this stuff head on. Lastly, John and I have never had any other interaction, if you’ve been in ANY business long enough you’ll learn statistically you’re gonna have unhappy individuals. Given the amount of money spent on the car and the new drivetrain I suspect John has been very successful in business. That doesn’t mean you stop doing new business with people. Just my opinion. Back to punishing the car to punish the person. Bad Karma in my world.
In conclusion my intent was not to call John out. Sorry John I genuinely think your a nice guy, maybe this will take some of the heat off you maybe not I don’t know. I will absolutely understand if this post upsets you and or offends you but it’s both factually based and how I personally feel. Quite honestly the whole situation has caused me much anguish and sleepless nights and honestly given me a bad taste for these cars I love so much (been at this since I was 15 im 44 now). I’ve come real close to sticking a LS motor in it honestly, and with the arrival of my new CTS-V supercharger today still potentially possible. I don’t believe this to be John’s fault, I honestly think he’s been fed bad info from other sources who are scared to say something publicly for good reason. If that’s the case shame on them for interfering with the reunification of what could quite possibly be a 1 of 1 car. Personally I know I wouldn’t take this to protect people who weren’t family members. Hell I wouldn’t do it for most my damn family. (Think I’m kidding on that try me &#128580. I’d want to get to the bottom of it myself. I’m sorry if this offends John or anyone else and I thank everyone who reads to this point. I’m not mad at ya John. You don’t know me and I understand. It’s a bummer you didn’t get to though. I think you’d find me a good guy. That being said if you do change your mind and decide to sell it PLEASE let me know. I just wanna finish what I started at this point. Wouldn’t hold anything against ya, hell your only 7 hours away. I’d drive up pick it up and take you out to dinner and buy you a drink. That being said. I’ll publicly make the offer to you to buy the block for 5k, or arraigned for another WS block to be checked and shipped to you from another member on this forum IN addition to paying the cash price you came up with. Once again zero risk gives you another WS block for later and does the good deed of placing the block with the VIN number stamped into it BACK in the car it was installed into April 1970 I don’t wish you any ill will and I truly wish you good luck on your Trans Am. Personally I think it’s gonna be a awesome ride glad you decided to go with the TKX like we discussed I think you’ll be VERY happy with it. I know I am with mine. On that note, thanks to you guys supporting my quest to try and restore this baby back to its greatness. If something comes about, expect a post dedicated to this car with a crap ton of documentation.
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  #33  
Old 05-20-2022, 09:43 AM
Ramairnacho Ramairnacho is offline
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Just get a service block man and sell your car and move to Hawaii so you retain all your value of yours car. Your thinning your heard so who care. It's his block and he likes it, I did look up your history Eric and you way rude to other members, you even told a guy you scrapped exhuast manifolds he needed instead of selling to him. You have a bachelor degree in business and they taught you to be that way my guess but this topic isn't about your ethics. I co graduate him.on his wisdom. You lost your engine long ago just put another one in it and drive sell it what ever. I never seen his for sale anyway. Like you told the Australia men im.stupid and dumb. F off man

  #34  
Old 05-20-2022, 10:41 AM
Ramairnacho Ramairnacho is offline
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Eric I tried being your friend you did tell me some parts that I needed I thank you for that but in your eyes I was just your customer. You lied to me about my factory Ram Air 3 manifolds once installed the date cannot be seen because you needed them for yours that was upsetting I knew you needed a set of ram air 3 exhaust manifolds and I bought an extra set while on vacation in Mexico you view people differently than other members on the group I tried to be your friend but no more on the other token this post isn't about your block and if your obsession and greed to make more money. Take this as a life lesson on how to treat people if you are straight-up honest guy you wouldn't have Karma bite you in the ass like this and if you lost half the value because you don't have the correct block oh well

  #35  
Old 05-20-2022, 11:53 AM
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For the last time, my motor is not for sale.

I am not going to debate about the whys and wherefores. But I have my reasons and I am comfortable with that.

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  #36  
Old 05-20-2022, 01:16 PM
Formula_1LE Formula_1LE is offline
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Being a new member (2/17/21) with 0 posts, I realize my opinion carries little weight. That being said I purchased my first Firebird ('69 FB 400 car) 34 years ago when I was 15, along with a few others I have accumulated of the years. I still have that '69 Firebird and it is currently undergoing a multi-year transformation into a Pro-Touring vehicle, and no not an LS-Swap, it will have a Kauffman built powerplant. I bring up this car because I have kept the original #'s match engine, even though there is a 0% chance it will ever be put back in by me. In the off chance that I were to sell the vehicle, it would still have the original "born with" motor in spite of all the powertrain and DSE modifications the car is going through I did not want to separate them.

About 25+ years ago I went to look at a spare '69 FB 400 motor to buy "just in case". When talking with the guy I asked him if he knew where the car was that motor came out of and he said it was in his back yard. He showed it me and low and behold it was the #'s match motor for the car. I barely had enough money to buy the motor at the time, but I felt very strongly that that the 2 should not be separated and I asked if we would consider selling the motor/car together and if he would give me a couple weeks to to earn enough tip money from valet parking cars to buy it. Luckily he did give me that chance so I kept the born with engine and car together. I still have it BTW if anyone is interested

I am in no way trying to interject myself into any differences members may have with one another, but only want to convey my hopes that the #'s correct motor finds it way back home at some point. It would be a shame for the entire Firebird and Pontiac Community as a whole to not be able to preserve such a unique piece of automotive history in as original state as possible.

Jhein - Welcome, I am excited to see where your build takes you and to see your motor/finished TA. I know my build has taken many twists and turns and continues to do so at to this day. Maybe we can swap some joys and pains of marrying the old/new in these awesome cars!

Ramairnacho - As a fellow '70 Formula RAIII owner (4-Spd/#'s Match), we both know how hard it is to find the correct numbered parts for our cars, I just didn't know what I was getting into with all of the 1-year only '70 stuff. To many of us #'s do matter. I could not tell from your posts if you had the #'s matching motor for your Formula, but if not I hope you are able to find it because I see all the lengths you are going through to find all the correct and numbered parts for your car, because it is a rare 'Bird too! In full disclosure, like you I have also purchased parts from Eric, but I did not have any of the issues you have communicated.

Eric - I do hope you and Jhein are able to find a mutually beneficial solution and re-unite the #'s match motor with your Formula. I appreciate you selling me a few of the correct 1-year only parts for my '70's as well as freely sharing much of your knowledge about these cars. Good luck.

There are countless others that deserve thanks in my continuing education about these vehicles as well as helping me find the correct parts over the years. Thank You.

  #37  
Old 05-20-2022, 01:59 PM
Ramairnacho Ramairnacho is offline
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This is interesting I been a member for almostb1 year and now a senior member and formula-ie is just a junior member. I remember being a junior member but as time went I became a senior member, Interesting and there should not be any shame in anything. My car is number matching for most part. John shouldn't be pressured or shamed for his decision and if since 21 why are you still a junior member? I want to see this bad ass butler block burn rubber!

  #38  
Old 05-20-2022, 02:23 PM
Formula_1LE Formula_1LE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramairnacho View Post
This is interesting I been a member for almostb1 year and now a senior member and formula-ie is just a junior member. I remember being a junior member but as time went I became a senior member, Interesting and there should not be any shame in anything. My car is number matching for most part. John shouldn't be pressured or shamed for his decision and if since 21 why are you still a junior member? I want to see this bad ass butler block burn rubber!
My guess would be that member status is based off of post count and since I do not post that is why I am still a Junior Member. I hope my post did not come off as pressuring anyone, that would be the furthest from my intent. I was merely expressing optimism that something could be worked out.

  #39  
Old 05-20-2022, 02:28 PM
tjr400 tjr400 is offline
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Everyone who’s saved one of theses cars knows that you don’t do this to get rich and famous, it’s a passion mixed with blood, sweat and tears….and lots and lots of $$$. You also rely on a community of fellow enthusiasts who share your passion and are happy to help.

Therefore, unlike Eric, I don’t respect the owners decision not to reunite the engine with the car…….its petty and the equivalent of the morons who let their car rust into nothing in the field because “they’re going to restore it one day”.

Either your someone who has a passion for these cars and wants to preserve them for the future, and that includes helping others restore theirs (because really, we are only their temporary custodians) or your a 2 year old throwing your toys out of the crib crying “it’s mine, and no one can have it”. No one is arguing it’s not yours, grow up and do the right thing.

……and Ramairnacho…..reading your post, there’s nothing I can say that you don’t say for me, keep going champ, always entertaining.

…and for the record, I have been restoring classic muscle cars for 30 years and have come across a lot of different people, some good and some not so good. Eric is up there with the best, without his knowledge and help sourcing parts I wouldn’t be able to restore my 1970 Ram Air Formula.

  #40  
Old 05-20-2022, 04:16 PM
jhein's Avatar
jhein jhein is offline
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So when is a numbers matching car better than not? Is it when you drive it? Is it when look at it and admire it? When I'm driving my car, running through the gears and winding through the twisties, I couldn't care less what number is on my motor. I drive it and it makes me feel great. It's when you sell it that it matters (OK, maybe if you want a ribbon at a show). But really it's when you sell it.

So when this guy Eric first approached me (after he was part of the group that pressured me to post my block VIN) he lied to me and told me the car was owned by another member It took a couple days before he eventually claimed he actually owned the car. He told me he owned it for 5 years. Then later he said 10. Then later again he said 15 years. From the pictures he sent me, the car needs a complete restoration. He claims he has all the parts to do that. But yet after 5, 10 or maybe 15 years, he hasn't. BTW, he also claims to have at least two 70 WS blocks and #12 heads. So what's stopping him? He could have had that car running and driving a long time ago. But is that what he wants? I don't think so.

I think he wants a numbers matching motor for the sole purpose of selling the car for more money. People have asked that question about my motives but I think the opposite is true.

Eric is apparently a used parts dealer. That's what he does. I don't know if it's his primary gig or a side gig, but it's a business for him. Most of these people posting here are his associates or customers. Most of them only post about parts for sale but not about their cars, or they don't post at all but crawled out from under a rock for this.

As far as I'm concerned, I may as well sell my motor to a used classic car dealer like Coyote Classics or Maple Motors so they can flip it for more money. I'm not interested in that. If I could reunite my motor with a car owned by a true hobbyist I would do it in a heartbeat. I don't think that's what's happening here.

So this person has lied to me repeatedly and I don't think his motives are pure. He doesn't care about the car. It's about the money.

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Last edited by jhein; 05-20-2022 at 04:23 PM.
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