#41  
Old 02-22-2021, 09:00 PM
shermanator2 shermanator2 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: San Diego, CA and Niwot, CO
Posts: 62
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
One other comment on my Post #29.

People might ask: Why did the RA-IV SD engine have a different weight pin in the TRW piston vs the normal 250 gram pin used in the typical TRW Forged Pistons or Cast Pistons in normal Pontiac Engines?

Stock Pontiac Engines for 400 cid engines used a given Bob Weight to balance the cast iron 3.75 stroke crankshaft.

The Ram Air IV SD engine used a Kellogg Steel 3.75 stroke Crankshaft.

"Cast iron is no heavier than steel on a pure density basis. Anything made out of cast iron rather than steel is heavier because it needs to be much thicker. ... Cast iron is usually defined by its carbon content (>2% by weight), and steel typically has <2% carbon."

Simple terms the balance of the engine is slightly different with the steel Crankshaft vs the Cast Iron production weight. As said above, for similar strength the Cast Iron crankshaft needs to be heavier. Steel being lighter = a 200 gram piston pin will work vs the normal 250 gram pin. 50 grams is not a lot of weight but it does help with the balancing of the engine parts. I was told that every one of the RA-IV SD engines was balanced.

Tom V.
We know that engineers do stuff for a reason. So if a 200g (or 192 or 194) pin is strong enough for a RAIV, why did they not use that in everything and balance accordingly? Less metal in the pin, less in the counterweights, if the quantities were equal, it seems like less cost. Or is it that the 200g pin is a more expensive alloy? I think we are getting a little off topic here.

  #42  
Old 02-23-2021, 12:20 AM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 28,967
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
Tom, please prove that there was a production RA4 SD no less a production one with a true steel crank because I have never seen such!

This is going to be another royal battle I can tell so maybe we should start a separate thread?
1) Pretty easy to tell a casting line on a crankshaft vs a forging line on a steel crankshaft. I have been dealing with Moldex Crankshaft and Kellogg for over 45 years. Give me a break. I have 5 forgings for the 366 Engines in my garage right now. I bought 15 of the things when Moldex was going to scrap them. Only owned 1 RA-IV SD Crank sold it to marty Palbykin for his Twin Turbo Engine. The other crank I worked on and sent the engine down the road.

2) So you need to do a bit more research on the RA-IV SD engine. I don't have to prove anything to you.

Tom V.

If you had asked Mack McKellar or Tom Nell these questions years ago they could tell you all about them.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

"There is nothing more fun than Learning"
Barney Navarro (Engineer, Fabricator, Machinist,
Racer, Inventor, one of the Original "Boost Guys"
If you are Talking, You are not "Listening", you can only LEARN by LISTENING. LLM

Last edited by Tom Vaught; 02-23-2021 at 12:25 AM.
  #43  
Old 02-23-2021, 12:42 AM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 28,967
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
Cast iron and steel info.

Cast iron is about 450 lbs per cubic foot, steel comes in at about 490 per cubic ft.
If the cast iron Crankshaft needs to be heavier to have the same strength as the steel crankshaft then the cast iron crank will be heavier for any given application to live. Simple enough.

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

"There is nothing more fun than Learning"
Barney Navarro (Engineer, Fabricator, Machinist,
Racer, Inventor, one of the Original "Boost Guys"
If you are Talking, You are not "Listening", you can only LEARN by LISTENING. LLM
  #44  
Old 02-23-2021, 01:44 AM
Jay S's Avatar
Jay S Jay S is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Nebraska City, Nebraska
Posts: 609
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959 View Post
Here is a photo from the magazine article on the RA IV. Maybe Tom can ID the piston tops. I know magazines will toss in "parts" just to make the article up, but you can see the piston on the right has different valve reliefs. The article sounds like the piston on the left is the cast RA II piston, and the one on the right is the forged RA IV piston.

The article also states the RA IV forged pistons are 50 grams lighter than the old cast RA II pistons.
Piston on the right in post 40 appears to be a 428 piston

Interesting stuff. Tom was the RA 4 SD engine an over the counter deal in just 1970?

So it likely would have been balanced totally differently than a regular RA 4 with that Kellogg crank if it had 421 SD rods and RA 4 pistons? It would be fun to see one of those. The regular 70 RA 4 crank appeared to be a Arma crank like a 389 with the part # ground off and restamped for the ra4 part #. Not sure how the factory balancing compared to the older arma cranks. I know a friend has one out of his RA4 that he stroked.

Back when the 48 head thread was going on I had several heads out and was looking at chamber, I remember the 62 had a squarer looking chamber versus the 48 and 16. I have been curious if the 13 looked like the 62 or had a different shape?

If someone has a 13 laying around I would like to see the combustion chamber shape.


Last edited by Jay S; 02-23-2021 at 01:54 AM. Reason: Edit
  #45  
Old 02-23-2021, 02:13 AM
242177P's Avatar
242177P 242177P is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,402
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay S View Post
... was the RA 4 SD engine an over the counter deal in just 1970?
As I understand it, they were production. Pete McCarthy talked about the 88 in some detail.
Damn you! Now I have to take another look! [shaking my fist at Jay through the monitor]

Edit- Looks like they didn't happen. Pete said he saw two of them. They're *just* a RAIV 'bird


Last edited by 242177P; 02-23-2021 at 02:44 AM.
The Following User Says Thank You to 242177P For This Useful Post:
  #46  
Old 02-23-2021, 07:26 AM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 28,967
Default

No need to believe me, but My Two Examples of the RA-IV SD were Midwest Owner located examples. Pete M would have been looking at west coast examples I assume.

That makes it 4 examples and BOTH OF MY EXAMPLES were in GTOs.

Pete's apparently saw two examples that were in RA-IV "Birds"

4 examples among two OLD Pontiac Guys in different locations, says maybe there were a few more out there for the Knowledgeable Pontiac Guys to spot.

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

"There is nothing more fun than Learning"
Barney Navarro (Engineer, Fabricator, Machinist,
Racer, Inventor, one of the Original "Boost Guys"
If you are Talking, You are not "Listening", you can only LEARN by LISTENING. LLM
The Following User Says Thank You to Tom Vaught For This Useful Post:
  #47  
Old 02-23-2021, 07:34 AM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 28,967
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacJim1959 View Post
Here is a photo from the magazine article on the RA IV. Maybe Tom can ID the piston tops. I know magazines will toss in "parts" just to make the article up, but you can see the piston on the right has different valve reliefs. The article sounds like the piston on the left is the cast RA II piston, and the one on the right is the forged RA IV piston.

The article also states the RA IV forged pistons are 50 grams lighter than the old cast RA II pistons.
250 minus 50 says the piston combines weight would have been about 200 grams for the piston pin.

Notice the shallow cut on the piston on the right (in the general spark plug location)?

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

"There is nothing more fun than Learning"
Barney Navarro (Engineer, Fabricator, Machinist,
Racer, Inventor, one of the Original "Boost Guys"
If you are Talking, You are not "Listening", you can only LEARN by LISTENING. LLM
  #48  
Old 02-23-2021, 07:43 AM
steve25's Avatar
steve25 steve25 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Westchester NY
Posts: 11,688
Default

One would have to assume that Pontiac was using up these Kellog cranks then in the few special motors that the could put together because I myself have never seen any official Pontiac sales literature that tells of the availablily of a RA 4 SD motor, has anyone else?

__________________
Verner Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA said that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!
  #49  
Old 02-23-2021, 11:14 AM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 28,967
Default

How many "Swiss Cheese" "Big Cars" are out there?

A "few" built for the Racers who had a inside track on what was available to them.
No press releases, or Sales Literature, but the cars were built. No one can argue that.
Are you implying that Pete McCarthy did not know what he was talking about?

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

"There is nothing more fun than Learning"
Barney Navarro (Engineer, Fabricator, Machinist,
Racer, Inventor, one of the Original "Boost Guys"
If you are Talking, You are not "Listening", you can only LEARN by LISTENING. LLM
  #50  
Old 02-23-2021, 11:33 AM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 28,967
Default

Steve25, do you think that Pontiac ever built a 4 bolt main block with Splayed Main Caps?
Tell us your opinion on that deal. Think it happened?
Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

"There is nothing more fun than Learning"
Barney Navarro (Engineer, Fabricator, Machinist,
Racer, Inventor, one of the Original "Boost Guys"
If you are Talking, You are not "Listening", you can only LEARN by LISTENING. LLM
  #51  
Old 02-23-2021, 11:48 AM
unruhjonny's Avatar
unruhjonny unruhjonny is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 4,977
Default

I will break my own silence to say that I am surprised at some of Steve's posts.

IIRC there was a pretty big write up on the RAIV-SD program in HPP a couple years before that publication was unsummarily killed off.

If my memory serves me the intent of the outgoing Delorean-era-Pontiac was for the 1970 Firebirds (Formula and Trans Am) to receive the RAIV-SD, which in part explains why one of the lead press cars was a RAIV car. I believe that under new managment this program was held up, and ultimately killed which would explain (as I believe the HPP article state) why the option was redlighted right through to the end of the model year at which point management decided to put the 'regular' GTO RAIV into Firebirds.
I do believe that the RAIV-SD program was killed much like how that same management killed the RAV program.
Although some seem to say that no one ordered a RAIV Formula, I call BS, as I seem to recall reading of many people attempting to order one, only to have their order rejected because of the (then stalled) RAIV-Firebird project.
It sure would have been cool if a couple were really built at the factory.

__________________
1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
1 Corinthians 2:12-14 / Ephesians 2: 8-9 / Luke 23: 39-43 / 2 Timothy 3:1-5;12
  #52  
Old 02-23-2021, 12:13 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 28,967
Default

One last question today, Steve25.
Are you aware that all 1973 455 SD engines (along with having Steel Connecting Rads)
had a dry sump capability. You ever see a actual 455 SD engine with a functional dry sump "Production" system?

I worked on the old Herb Adams 64 LeMans road race car (see photo) that had a functional system. All of the PRODUCTION 1973 & 1974 455 SD Engines have the ability to install the special parts on that special engine IF you know what the parts are and where to get them from people like Herb Adams, Tom Nell, Skip (Dudley) McCully, HB Bailey, and other Pontiac Racer type guys. Ken Crocie (HO Racing) had some of those parts.

Herb also did a special Aluminum oil pan for the later Fire Am cars he built.
It had provision for the special scavenge pump in the pan to pump the oil from the small volume aluminum pan into the hidden oil tank behind the dash of the vehicle. A cam driven oil pump attached to the camshaft pumped the oil from the hidden tank thru the engine.
Also why the 455 SD blocks have three oil passages cast into the block at the oil filter location. Racers designed these parts in Pontiac and now you imply that these special parts never exister in Pontiac race vehicles. (FORGOT, PONTIAC WAS NOT ALLOWED TO RACE IN THE 70S. THAT IS WHY TOM NELL, HERB ADAMS, AND OTHERS LOST THEIR JOBS AT PONTIAC.) I personally worked on Herbs car when the new owners first bought it and were rebuilding the engine. Want to post that never happened because in was not in a Sales Brochure?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HihrLJONKYY

Tom V

Unruhjonny, Martin Casero killed the 455 SD because his idiot kid, was driving one of Daddy's company cars at college, rang up a lot of tickets, the car was registered to PMD, and PMD was not happy with the negative press about the tickets and PMD stalling on paying the fines. I went to school with "the kid getting the tickets"

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

"There is nothing more fun than Learning"
Barney Navarro (Engineer, Fabricator, Machinist,
Racer, Inventor, one of the Original "Boost Guys"
If you are Talking, You are not "Listening", you can only LEARN by LISTENING. LLM

Last edited by Tom Vaught; 02-23-2021 at 12:27 PM.
  #53  
Old 02-23-2021, 12:42 PM
steve25's Avatar
steve25 steve25 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Westchester NY
Posts: 11,688
Default

Yes Tom I am aware of all of those things you querie me on, but the undeniable fact remains that unless you could have got a replacement Kellog steel Crank , or RAv Rods and such over the parts counter then those parts where never truly slated for production, that's all I am saying with my comments!

__________________
Verner Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA said that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!
  #54  
Old 02-23-2021, 01:16 PM
Rocky Rotella's Avatar
Rocky Rotella Rocky Rotella is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 2,559
Default

The Ram Air Super Duty (UPC LS1) was planned to be a bulletproof version of the R/A IV available in the 1970 Trans Am. A December 1969 printing of the 1970 Engine Application Chart shows codes WH (manual) and XN (auto) for it. And a Car Distribution Bulletin published about the same time announces the cancellation of the L67 Ram Air IV in the Firebird line and that a replacement engine (Ram Air Super Duty) would soon be announced.

The R/A S/D consisted of the reinforced 400-inch block with large distributor hole from the R/A V program, the forged 3.75-inch crankshaft also from the R/A V program, forged connected rods (which, like Tom I assumed were likely re-issued 421 SD rods but have no definite proof of it), and the forged R/A IV pistons. The top end was comprised of standard R/A IV components. To accommodate the larger distributor drive gear, the 041-spec number-480737 "K" camshaft was created. That camshaft later resurfaced during the development of the SD-455 for 1973, and is now referred to as the "pre-production" cam. The R/A S/D carried a power output rating identical to the L67 Ram Air IV.

Why the reason for the LS1 R/A S/D program? Beyond giving Firebird racers a bulletproof platform for competition, it may have also been a way for Pontiac to fulfill contract obligations with outside suppliers who were to produce the canceled R/A V programs forged-steel components. And by that point Pontiac may have had several dozen 3.75-inch forged-steel crankshafts in house that they needed to use up.

In early 1970 (calendar year) Pontiac stated internally that it planned to expand LS1 availability into the 1971 A-car and when that occurred the L67 R/A IV would go away entirely. By May 1970, Pontiac issued an internal memo noting that because of connecting rod supply issues the LS1 R/A S/D was canceled for the 1970 model year. The L67 would replace it in any 1970 Trans Am order, but when looking at original 1970 Trans Am window stickers or billing invoices, you'll see the LS1 UPC and references to the "Super Duty" that was originally planned.

As far as I know, no "production" cars were produced with the R/A S/D engine, but I've heard about (and believe the associated stories) that customers and/or dealers with the right connections had special "memo" cars built with the forged bottom end.

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rocky Rotella For This Useful Post:
  #55  
Old 02-23-2021, 01:57 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 28,967
Default

Thank You Rocky for putting into print what I have said all along but Steve25 seems to have a problem with understanding. I knew Tom Nell personally. I did parts trades with Skip McCully, I talked several times With Herb Adams at car shows at the Edsel Ford Estate where he was showing his sports car. My family owned a Pontiac Dealership for 67 years.

I had access to all of the literature comping from GM Engineering when I would request help with a subject.
That is where the Rochester Tri-Power Carb Info came from.
It will be, what it will be, but I was there and worked on the stuff as well as dealing with Kellogg Crankshaft and Moldex Crankshaft for over 40 years. So my posts are not BS and it bothers me that Steve25 must think he is from the "SHOW ME State" when it comes from stating ACTUAL FACTS.

My 64 GTO was a Brass Hat car owned by the top guy in the Pontiac/GM National Dealer/Service Organization.

Where does your knowledge on Pontiacs come from Steve25 and when did it start?

I apologize to the board for my lack of patience with people who do not understand that some things did happen without him having a personal copy of the plans.

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

"There is nothing more fun than Learning"
Barney Navarro (Engineer, Fabricator, Machinist,
Racer, Inventor, one of the Original "Boost Guys"
If you are Talking, You are not "Listening", you can only LEARN by LISTENING. LLM
  #56  
Old 02-23-2021, 03:06 PM
Tom Vaught's Avatar
Tom Vaught Tom Vaught is offline
Boost Engineer
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The United States of America
Posts: 28,967
Default

If the cars came off the production line, be it 5,000 cars or 1 car, it was still built on the production line. I am aware of two 1973 Pontiac Wagons that were "built" with 455 SD engines vs the production 455 engines. No build sheets for the cars but the line workers mistakenly built these two vehicles (for some other line workers on the same line) "by accident" apparently. These two guys were long time Pontiac Assembly Line workers, not Pontiac management "shooters".

Now that is not invoiced but the cars still got built and I saw one of the two of them in college driven by the son of one of the workers.

Rocky, my understanding is that there were many dynometer issues with the 73/74 SD engines due to aggressive dyno pulls by some employees.

Tom V.

__________________
"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught

"There is nothing more fun than Learning"
Barney Navarro (Engineer, Fabricator, Machinist,
Racer, Inventor, one of the Original "Boost Guys"
If you are Talking, You are not "Listening", you can only LEARN by LISTENING. LLM
  #57  
Old 02-23-2021, 03:28 PM
Formulas's Avatar
Formulas Formulas is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,096
Default

Tom , Was it possible for a line worker back in the day to pick a car going through and buy it right after assembly?

That would of been cool

__________________
You Have Done Nothing When You've Bested A Fool


Glen Campbell, True Grit.
  #58  
Old 02-23-2021, 04:03 PM
Rocky Rotella's Avatar
Rocky Rotella Rocky Rotella is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 2,559
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post

Rocky, my understanding is that there were many dynometer issues with the 73/74 SD engines due to aggressive dyno pulls by some employees.

Tom V.
That's my understanding too! I spoke with Ron Genaw who ran Pontiac's dyno lab then and it sounds like he was a performance enthusiast who really enjoyed running the developmental SD-455 engines.

Herb, Tom, and Skip probably told you as they did me that the race version of the SD-455 (12:1 compression, radical camshaft, and open headers) was pushing 600 hp when development officially ended. That's damn impressive when considering early-1970s technology at the time.

If you hadn't yet seen my '70-81 Firebird book, you'd appreciate the pictures I found of the production SD-455 on the dyno. Herb is even in some of them. I also have a handful of dyno graphs of the development and production SD-455 and internal memos as it was being readied for production.

  #59  
Old 02-23-2021, 04:28 PM
Region Warrior's Avatar
Region Warrior Region Warrior is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 6,511
Default

When I took over as a parts manager at a Pontiac dealer back in 85?...,found a Pontiac parts bulletin listing all the replacement parts for the RAIV SD.
Not sure if saved it since everything had been discontinued for years.
And if did, in which binder, in which filing cabinet, with copies of darn near every tech article since then.

__________________
If you cant drive from gas pump to gas pump across the map, its not a street car.


http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/b...hop/?start=100
  #60  
Old 02-23-2021, 04:34 PM
Rocky Rotella's Avatar
Rocky Rotella Rocky Rotella is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 2,559
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Region Warrior View Post
When I took over as a parts manager at a Pontiac dealer back in 85?...,found a Pontiac parts bulletin listing all the replacement parts for the RAIV SD.
Not sure if saved it since everything had been discontinued for years.
And if did, in which binder, in which filing cabinet, with copies of darn near every tech article since then.
I'D LOVE TO SEE IT! (Yes, I'm yelling!)

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:24 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 

Cold Case Radiators

Cold Case Radiators is a Max Performance company that produces high end aluminum performance radiators at a price point that won't break the bank. Polished and stamped tanks. 2 rows of 1" tubes. Lifetime Warranty.

GTOG8TA.com

GTOG8TA.com is a Max Performance company that manufacturers parts for the 04-06 GTO, 08-09 G8, and 93-02 Firebird/Trans Am platforms.

Copyright © 2017