[Skippy597]

Hey guys,
Alright so I've decided I'm gonna build a 428. Now I've got the quest of actually building it, however I was curious what you guys thought of the unassembled short block from butler. So aside from the initial sticker shock (really not too bad) once you break it down they sound like a good deal so correct me if I'm wrong and would love to hear if anyone hear has experience with them.

Firstly 428 blocks don't come up that often

Secondly once I find one I still have the risk of it being cracked and that time and money wasted

Thirdly once I find a block and it turns out to be good I have to get the machine work done. Which most likely will include me having to buy a torque plate for boring it because the machinist I know do not do Pontiacs.

So after those 3 items getting a guaranteed block from butler with the machine work done seems like a good deal. However they don't zero deck the block so I will have to get that done after receiving it or I wonder if I can pay them extra to do it at Butler.

Anyways was thinking what you guys thought.

[rtp]

A fews years back I had Butler machine a small journal block and I bought the rotating asm as well. The block was fully prepped and spotless. The clearances were dead nuts. Pricey I suppose but they did a nice job

[78w72]

for the cost of a 428 vs a good 481988 400 block & the stroker kits available today, it doesnt make much sense to pay the premium for a 428 or 455 block IMO if you plan to buy the rotating assembly anyways, just stroke a 400.

i bought a forged kit from butler & had my local machine shop build it, was much cheaper compared to having butler build it & ship it & if theres any problems i can bring it back to them locally to fix it, major hassle to ship an engine back to butler. but if local builer isnt an option nothing wrong with having butler build it, they will deck the block or do any other work you want if you pay for it.

other option would be to ask around locally or on here for suggestions of a builder thats more local to your area that does do pontiacs, lots of good builders out there in most areas.

[Skippy597]

Originally Posted by 78w72

for the cost of a 428 vs a good 481988 400 block & the stroker kits available today, it doesnt make much sense to pay the premium for a 428 or 455 block IMO if you plan to buy the rotating assembly anyways, just stroke a 400.

i bought a forged kit from butler & had my local machine shop build it, was much cheaper compared to having butler build it & ship it & if theres any problems i can bring it back to them locally to fix it, major hassle to ship an engine back to butler. but if local builer isnt an option nothing wrong with having butler build it, they will deck the block or do any other work you want if you pay for it.

other option would be to ask around locally or on here for suggestions of a builder thats more local to your area that does do pontiacs, ots of good builders out there in most areas.

Yeah I'm not really claiming to make sense here lol. I'm kinda tired of that mentality that it makes most sense to only build a 400, that may very well be true how about the fact that I just want to build a 428. Honestly there's not that big of a price difference either. I've had this discussion to death both in my head and on this forum. Call me stubborn or stupid but the heart wants what the heart wants lol.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Skippy597

Yeah I'm not really claiming to make sense here lol. I'm kinda tired of that mentality that it makes most sense to only build a 400, that may very well be true how about the fact that I just want to build a 428. Honestly there's not that big of a price difference either. I've had this discussion to death both in my head and on this forum. Call me stubborn or stupid but the heart wants what the heart wants lol.

thats perfectly fine if you want to build a 428, just pointing out another more cost effective option with a 400. & from what ive seen over the last 5-10 years & especially today is that 428s & 455s are a LOT more expensive than a 400. i see 428 blocks for $1000-1500+ & 455s for $800-1000+, where early to mid 70s 400 blocks can still be found for $250-500. big price difference & you dont really gain anything, in fact many people say the 400 is the better stroker option since it has the smaller 3" mains.

just replying to your questions about butler building it & providing some other options for other builders & the 400 option. best of luck on the 428 build.

[Skippy597]

Originally Posted by 78w72

thats perfectly fine if you want to build a 428, just pointing out another more cost effective option with a 400. & from what ive seen over the last 5-10 years & especially today is that 428s & 455s are a LOT more expensive than a 400. i see 428 blocks for $1000-1500+ & 455s for $800-1000+, where early to mid 70s 400 blocks can still be found for $250-500. big price difference & you dont really gain anything, in fact many people say the 400 is the better stroker option since it has the smaller 3" mains.

just replying to your questions about butler building it & providing some other options for other builders & the 400 option. best of luck on the 428 build.

I appreciate it just providing the reasoning behind it. I'm not seeing those price difference around here. If anything 400 block have shot up recently and are very near 455 prices. Bare blocks run about the same price 400 vs 455. The main journals are really the only reason to do a 400. Then rotating assemblies are identically priced. Good idea about calling around.

Anyone from Washington have a good Machinist they use and a recent price from them?

[Formulabruce]

Why do you have to zero deck the motor? You should consider your CR. ALL 428 were fairly high compression engines from the factory.

[Jack P.]

In post #1 you said your machine shop does not do Pontiac's.
I would not have him build your Pontiac motor. They are not the same as what ever he builds.
If you have no choice get a lot of advice from Butler or Kaufman or the many great engine builders on this forum.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Skippy597

I appreciate it just providing the reasoning behind it. I'm not seeing those price difference around here. If anything 400 block have shot up recently and are very near 455 prices. Bare blocks run about the same price 400 vs 455. The main journals are really the only reason to do a 400. Then rotating assemblies are identically priced. Good idea about calling around.

Anyone from Washington have a good Machinist they use and a recent price from them?

that pricing must be specific to your area, 400s & everything for that matter, have gone up in prices in the last 3-5 years but still are far less $ than a 455 block & definitely a 428. i have owned & sold about 20 400 blocks in the last 5-10 years & at least 10 455s, the 455s have & will always get around double what a 400 sells for based on my experience & what i see them selling for.

i also agree there is no need to zero deck a block when you are starting from scratch with the parts, let the heads & pistons determine the compression needed & save the blocks usable life by leaving pistons at least .005 in the hole for future deck clean up.

[i82much]

Originally Posted by Skippy597

I appreciate it just providing the reasoning behind it. I'm not seeing those price difference around here. If anything 400 block have shot up recently and are very near 455 prices. Bare blocks run about the same price 400 vs 455. The main journals are really the only reason to do a 400. Then rotating assemblies are identically priced. Good idea about calling around.

Anyone from Washington have a good Machinist they use and a recent price from them?

Cassell engines in Spokane did my 505 and I am very pleased. Reasonable prices and high quality. I would absolutely use them again.

[Steve C.]

400 block and.....

https://www.jegs.com/i/Scat/942/4400P42010/10002/-1


.

[TCSGTO]

You can't zero deck a block until you mock it up with the piston/rod you're using and measure how much needs taken off the block. It can be "squared" or "decked" to get both banks even and the same distance to the crank centerline before you have a rotating assembly. That should be done at a bare minimum and that's probably what Bulter does on their unassembled short block kits.
Having a competent shop assemble the block is worth it if you don't have access to the O.D mics and bore gauge needed to double check main/rod clearances. Quality measuring tools cost more than what a shop would charge for assembly. You would probably have to check and adjust ring end gaps on the unassembled kit too.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by TCSGTO

You can't zero deck a block until you mock it up with the piston/rod you're using and measure how much needs taken off the block. It can be "squared" or "decked" to get both banks even and the same distance to the crank centerline before you have a rotating assembly. That should be done at a bare minimum and that's probably what Bulter does on their unassembled short block kits.
Having a competent shop assemble the block is worth it if you don't have access to the O.D mics and bore gauge needed to double check main/rod clearances. Quality measuring tools cost more than what a shop would charge for assembly. You would probably have to check and adjust ring end gaps on the unassembled kit too.

You can, but you have to know the specifications of the pistons PLUS manufacturing tolerance. Additionally, CP Carrillo and RaceTec offer displaced piston pin bores that reduce the amount of material needed to be removed from the block decks in order to attain “zero” deck. As long as you know the actual c-to-c length of the connecting rods, the actual stroke of each rod journal and the exact block deck height along with the actual piston compression height plus manufacturing tolerance you CAN actually set the deck height without mocking up the assembly. This is WHY I never order a piston until the crank has been ground and the strokes equalized, the c-to-c of the connecting rods is set and the block deck height is set.

[Chris65LeMans]

When I was engine shopping several months ago, Butler told me (by e-mail) that they were too busy to return my call. I ended up buying from Kauffman. Give Jeff a call - he can help you out.