Pontiac - Boost Turbo, supercharged, Nitrous, EFI & other Power Adders discussed here.

          
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Old 02-18-2019, 03:20 PM
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Default Planning a Single Turbo 461 Low RPM Street Car

Good afternoon, I am thinking of doing a Single turbo on my street 461, and I would like your input. I initially had plans to upgrade the heads to KRE, along with a street Solid Roller and Northwind intake, but I have now changed my mind, and think I can possibly have a street car that is more fun by keeping my ported iron heads, and stick with a solid flat tappet camshaft, along with a single turbo and maybe 8-10 lbs of boost, and maybe cost less.

Here is what I have currently in the vehicle

-1974 Pontiac 400 2-bolt block
-Bottom filled to center freeze plug with Pontiacdudes block fill
-ARP Main Studs
-4.155" Bore
-4.250 Eagle Cast crankshaft
-Eagle 4340 H-Beam 6.700" rods
-Ross Flat Top piston 1.385" Comp. height
-Decked to 10.215" (piston .005" in hole)
-Felpro 1016 .039" Head gaskets
-SD Performance Street hand ported 6X-8 Heads 2.11/1.77 Ferrea valves, heads flow 245@.550 int 182@.550 Exh. and Chamber around 100cc
-Current camshaft is an old custom Ultradyne Solid Flat tappet 288/301 Advertised, 255/267@.050, .540"/ 552" lift with 1.5 Harland Sharps, 106° Intake Centerline, 112° Lobe Separation
-Crower Solid Flat tappet lifters
-Rollmaster billet timing chain
-Romac Aluminum/Steel Damper
-Performer RPM Intake
-Quick Fuel 750 downleg carb
Mallory billet distributor
Mallory Powermaster Coil
Mallory HyFire 685 ignition box w/boost timing retard
-1 3/4 Hedman headers
-Dual 3" Exhaust, Dr Gas Xpipe, Dynomax Ultra Flow mufflers, Pypes 3" tailpipes
-TH400 Transmission, 34 element Sprag
-TCS 2800 stall 11" Torque Converter ordered through Dave at SD Performance for a older RA 4 cammed 455.
-Rear Gear is 3.73
-1978 Trans Am 3800 lbs
-Premium Pump Gas Street Car

Ok, now.... I want to put a Single turbo on this and I obviously want to change a few things to work better with the turbo. The camshaft is one of those things, as I figure the current camshaft probably wouldn't work to great with a turbo, so I have contacted both Mark at Bullet and Butler to see what they recommend for another solid flat tappet camshaft that will work well with the turbo, I'm still awaiting their responses.

The second thing I want to change is the Performer RPM intake to maybe a hurricane or Northwind to work better with boost.

I will also be changing the carb for the Fitech 1200 Power Adder EFI system, and I will initially use it to control Fuel only, and control my ignition system seperate.

The third thing is the Torque Converter, I'm thinking either a PTC, or I will get in touch with Cliff and order one through him, or depending on what the cam specs look like, maybe my current converter may work ok, but I almost bet it would be too loose.

Fourth is a Rear Gear change, maybe change it to a 3.23 or 3.42. Current 3.73 is probably a bit to much for a turbo.

Ok, I think that is most of the changes I would like to make to provide a better combination for the turbo. I have been looking and doing alot of research of two turbo's... I have came down to the BorgWarner Cast S480 with a 96 Turbine and 1.32 AR T6, or the VS Racing 80mm billet with a 96 turbine and 1.32 AR T6. Both are close in the same price range, but obviously the VS Racing is an imported turbo. I'm not an expert on turbochargers, so I'm not sure of the street durability of the VS Racing, and I do know that the factory uses Borgwarner turbos on alot of factory turbocharged vehicles, so they are known to be durable I suppose. The VS Racing turbo is appealing, because it is 100 bucks cheaper and has a billet compressor wheel vs the S480 cast wheel. I'm for whichever turbo would be more durable and work best for my application, because the price difference is not much.

From my research so far, it looks like 2 1/4" crossover pipes would work great for the street. For the downpipe, I would keep it 5" for as far as possible out of the turbine, and then reduce it down to 4" and then somehow split it back into my dual 3" exhaust, I havent given that part much thought as of yet, but there is only so much room to work with. I want it to spool as quick as possible, without any lag issue, since this is a street car.

Due to the 9.1 compression, I only want to run just 8 lbs or so of boost, maybe 10 at the most, on pump gas. Maybe increase it 5 lbs at the track along with 110 octane fuel, but it will be mostly street driven on low boost, and needs to have good drivabilty.

With this combination I also want to keep the RPM relatively low, maybe around 5800 max, and maybe make around 750-800 at the crank with room to grow if I want to crank up the boost a little with race fuel. I'm really not sure what it would be capable of, but I know it would be fun.

Any thoughts , input , tips would be appreciated greatly. Thank You

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Old 02-18-2019, 05:53 PM
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Ok, I just got an email back from Mark at Bullet and this is the Solid Flat Tappet he recommends for my combination with a tight 3400 stall converter.... Still waiting to hear back from Butler....

PON 282/286 F114+4

INT MASTER (UF282/3608) AND EXH MASTER (UF286/3680)

DUR AT 050 (252/256) AND LIFT WITH 1.50 ROCKERS WILL BE (.542/.552)

LSA 114 AND DEGREE IN THE ENGINE AT 110

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Last edited by TransAm 474; 02-18-2019 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:24 PM
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Anyone care to share your thoughts on what you think of this combination? Which turbo you would go with? I'm thinking the Bullet recommend camshaft above sounds good, what is your thoughts?

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Old 02-19-2019, 08:59 PM
73 TRANSAM 73 TRANSAM is offline
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The cam sounds about right. I would use the BW475 turbo. It should spool pretty good in the street and the turbo is capable of 800 or so hp. It is also 600 dollar turbo. Good luck.

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Old 02-19-2019, 09:08 PM
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I agree with the Borg Warner s475 That’s what I have , but I would go with a hydraulic roller cam with a 112 lobe center ... I have basically what your trying to build 455 with stroker kit and a set of Sd ported 6x -4 heads at 12lbs of on e85 , car runs good ....

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Old 02-20-2019, 01:22 AM
73 TRANSAM 73 TRANSAM is offline
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Also, whatever intake u choose. Make sure its a single plane design or u will have problem with A/F distribution issue. Make sure u have a good and strong torque converter with either a mechanical diode or a better sprag design. A built 400 or 4L80E and good rear end unless u only run it on the street. Tires will save the driveline from breaking. Also make sure u can make a turbo header or log manifold for the turbo conversion as no one makes a kit for us. Good luck.

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Old 02-20-2019, 01:46 AM
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Cam looks a bit large for a low rpm street car?? lol. I ran a s475 for ten years and it worked well but I always wished I bought a s480 in the first place. I am installing a s488 on my bird right now, winter project. Cam selection, torque converter and axle ratio all work together and are very important. What are your goals??

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Old 02-20-2019, 06:18 PM
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Thanks for everyones replies. My goal for the car is to make an easy 750-800 at the crank on pump gas by running 8, maybe 10 lbs of boost, keep it around 5800 RPM, and have decent drivability, and fast spool without lag issues. Then maybe every once in awhile, take it to the local track to play with, and maybe increase the boost another 5 lbs or so, along with better 110 octane fuel to make 950+. This will be a 90% Street Driven car on 8-10 lbs, not looking for a max effort deal, but would like it to have the potential available by turning it up a little if I wanted. For timing, I'm thinking locked at 36°, and then pull 1.5° per pound from there, to start with, for pump gas and my iron headed 9.1-1 compression, so at 8 lbs of boost, it would have 24° total and 10 lbs would be at 21° total. I have reaearched a bunch here, and everywhere for Pontiac turbo builds, and from what I have gathered, most would prefer the S480 for similar builds, although the S475 seems to do fantastic as well. I have also came to the conclusion that the 96 turbine with a 1.32 ar is a must. How does that sound? Am I on the right track here? The cam choice will look a bit bigger than normal, because it is a solid flat tappet, they typically run about 10° bigger compared to a comparable hydraulic. I prefer the SFT as that is what I've been running in it for several years now, I check lash once a year, never a problem.

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Old 02-20-2019, 06:39 PM
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I have nothing to add other than I’d be worried about the durability of that offshore cast crankshaft at your expected horsepower level.

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Old 02-20-2019, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b-man View Post
I have nothing to add other than I’d be worried about the durability of that offshore cast crankshaft at your expected horsepower level.
Yeah, back when I built this engine, the cast cranks were all that was available. I may indeed upgrade to a 4340 forged sometime down the road, especially before I cranked the boost up too much. That is the main reason for my conservative timing and RPM thoughts.

I appreciate your input

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Old 02-21-2019, 09:08 AM
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Im almost in the same position as you on doing the turbo setup, but I am building another shortblock to handle the power as my current 455 has stock rods...
I've been doing research for a couple of years now and I have decided on a Works Turbochargers s480 Billet t6 turbo. They're a local company here in Alabama, and they take BorgWarners and make them better. You can get one for right at $1000. Everything on your combo sounds pretty good. I think a smaller hyd roller would be better, however. The FiTech system is awesome, btw. I'm running the 1200PA system but not using the timing control. Using a Tanks Inc in tank 400 lph pump, and -8 lines, and an external aeromotive regulator. My plan is to buy the MSD DSI kit, with the dual sync distributor with a blank cap on it which will act as the cam sensor, to convert to coil on plug and control timing through the MSD box with a laptop, similar to an LS setup. Very easy to do but pricey. It comes with a built in MAP sensor to be able to retard timing with boost.

Keep us posted!

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Old 02-21-2019, 09:57 AM
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Cam seems to be a little big for what you need on street.

Also I would give Jeff at Mayhem turbos a call. He is a member here and has done a lot of work on 455, header and cam design.

Reed would also be a good source for turbo as well. He does good upgrades as well! ; )

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Old 02-21-2019, 03:03 PM
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I've designed a handful of HR's for turbo LS engines. The most radical of those cams had 242 @ .050" for the intake, and so far has put 1300hp to the wheels (and is street driven). Turbo's don't need much intake duration, but they do like exhaust duration. 800 at the cranks doesn't even require 230 on the intake.

Look at the FAST XFI Sportsman BT (blow through) efi system. Lifetime warranty. the "BT" is THE best deal of the FAST systems, selling for several hundred less than the non-BT Sportsman system. The regular and the BT systems are the same, except the BT has a 2-bar MAP while the regular has a 1-bar. Part number 303001BT. I see them on ebay for just under 2100, I can get them for a bit less than that.

Idle video of the 1300rwhp LS idling and backing into garage: https://youtu.be/S6D5dc2snPw

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'73 T/A (clone). Low budget stock headed 8.3:1 455, 222/242 116lsa .443/.435 cam. FAST Sportsman EFI, 315rwhp/385rwtq on 87 octane. 13.12 @103.2, 1.91 60'.

'67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust

My webpage http://lnlpd.com/home

Last edited by Lee; 02-21-2019 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 02-21-2019, 03:13 PM
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The Fast system only supports 1000 hp and cost $700 more than a FiTech or Holley Sniper kit that support 1200 hp. Both Holley and FiTech have 2.5 bar sensors for 25 lbs of boost.

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Old 02-21-2019, 03:55 PM
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2-bar is 29 psi

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'73 T/A (clone). Low budget stock headed 8.3:1 455, 222/242 116lsa .443/.435 cam. FAST Sportsman EFI, 315rwhp/385rwtq on 87 octane. 13.12 @103.2, 1.91 60'.

'67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust

My webpage http://lnlpd.com/home
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Old 02-21-2019, 05:37 PM
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11-10-2011, 08:05 PM
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Default Bring on the boost!!!!! Time for a change
I have had nitrous on my Pontiac since I was 18 years old. As of tomorrow morning my tiger headed nitrous huffing engine will have a new home. And I will start my twin turbo build.

Somewhere along the way, I lost what I loved most about my car. The ability to drive it anywhere. While I drove my car a bit this year, it was not near enough and I was worried about valve springs and fuel the whole time. Plus with a passenger, the bottles have no place to sit. Its just not as fun anymore. I want to go faster, but I want to drive it as well. And with all this engine bay room, my car is just SCREAMING turbo.

So this is my thread that I will document my build from start to finish.

MISSION OBJECTIVE:

Drive my Pontiac WITH A PASSENGER to my local race track, run a 7 second pass and drive it home.

Any input, ideas, suggestions, parts, sponsors, and trash talking is all 100% welcome in this thread. As of right now this is all I know.....

It will be pontiac, it will be turbo, it will be injected. Other than that, I am all ears.
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This guy did ok swapping..this is actually a pretty good thread.

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Old 02-21-2019, 06:47 PM
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Mark at Bullet cam makes a good recommendation on their cams. I ran a 55mm LSM SR 254/256@.050 116 LS 450 lobe lift on my 482 single 91.5 T6 G trim and it made good power till 5800 rpm on the dyno. This is why I said your cam recommendation from Bullet is good. But I am no expert on this and haven't really driven the combo yet. I would definitely rethink on using that cast crank.

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Old 02-21-2019, 08:00 PM
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Thanks, yeah, I think I will definitely go with Marks recommendation for the camshaft. It will be much more mild than the camshaft im running now, atleast by looking at the overlap. The 252/256 114° solid flat tappet cam he recommended, only has 26° overlap at .050" and 56° going off the Advertised Duration. My current solid flat tappet 255/267 112° has 37° overlap at .050" and 70.5° going by the Advertised Duration and I don't have any problems with drivability with it, so his should do really good I would think. As far as the crank is concerned, I will probably change it out for a 4340 down the road. I will just keep it at low boost and keep the RPM safe until then, it should still make plenty of power to play with on the street until I can get the 4340 crank in it, then I can lean on it a little harder. I appreciate the input...

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Old 02-21-2019, 08:28 PM
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Turbo builds like wide LSA. I have had my turbo set up for 6 years. I am slowly getting it were I want to. I have an S475 small solid roller, CSU blow thru.
Jeff Palazzo has had a 6X headed cast crank 455 small solid cam running for 12+years. Ran the best of 9.79@147. Your tune has to be spot on.

What I would do different, I drive the car a bunch on the street 99% street car. I have a forged crank 4.250 stroke, that's the 1st change, I would like a 4 inch stroke.(torque is crazy for the street and small tire) I also would rather have a S480 or a bigger, and keep the cam small, let the turbo do the work. I would like fuel injection, rather than the blow thru, it works well but tuning is manual not a press of a button. That being said, 800 hp which is what I am around now at 10-11 psi, is hard to handle on the street sometimes.
Making more than that on a stock block over time can be an issue.

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Old 02-21-2019, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSPONT View Post
Turbo builds like wide LSA. I have had my turbo set up for 6 years. I am slowly getting it were I want to. I have an S475 small solid roller, CSU blow thru.
Jeff Palazzo has had a 6X headed cast crank 455 small solid cam running for 12+years. Ran the best of 9.79@147. Your tune has to be spot on.

What I would do different, I drive the car a bunch on the street 99% street car. I have a forged crank 4.250 stroke, that's the 1st change, I would like a 4 inch stroke.(torque is crazy for the street and small tire) I also would rather have a S480 or a bigger, and keep the cam small, let the turbo do the work. I would like fuel injection, rather than the blow thru, it works well but tuning is manual not a press of a button. That being said, 800 hp which is what I am around now at 10-11 psi, is hard to handle on the street sometimes.
Making more than that on a stock block over time can be an issue.
I appreciate your input, I have watched all of your videos on youtube, you have a badass car for sure. Its pretty rare to come across many true turbocharged pontiac street car videos on YouTube. In all honesty, I would probably be plenty satisfied with the S475, but I thought I might go ahead and go with the S480 so that I have some room to grow down the road along with a forged crank if I want too. It seems your S475 doesn't have a problem whatsoever with spool. I'm assuming the S480 wouldn't have either, because my car has plenty of power to shred the tires now without boost, so it really shouldn't have a problem with lag I wouldnt think. Thank You for sharing your thoughts.

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