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THE LOBBY A gathering place. Introductions, sports, showin' off your ride, birthday-anniversary-milestone, achievements, family oriented humor. |
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#41
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There are exceptions, which leaves room for exploitation. That is exactly why the crime is considered a felony. "Section 511(b) of Title 18 creates exceptions..." "subsection (b) is not intended to create a loophole..." Frank
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Poncho Huggen, Gear Snatchen, Posi Piro. |
#42
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"1364. Altering Or Removing Motor Vehicle Identification Numbers
Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part. Section 511(b) of Title 18 creates exceptions for certain persons who engage in lawful conduct that may result in removal or alteration of an identification number. The legislative history is abundantly clear that subsection (b) is not intended to create a loophole for the operators of "chop shops." See H.R.Rep. No. 1087 on H.R. 6257, 98th Congress, 2d Sess. 23-25 (1984). Section 511(c) of Title 18 contains the definitions for "identification number," "motor vehicle," "motor vehicle demolisher," and "motor vehicle scrap processor." The term "identification number" means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and Part C of subtitle VI of Title 49. Title 49, Chapter 301 authorizes the Secretary of Transportation to promulgate motor vehicle safety standards. Pursuant to this authority, Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 115-Vehicle Identification Number (49 C.F.R. §§ 571.115 and 565.1 to 565.5) requires public VIN numbers on road vehicles (passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, buses, trailers, and motorcycles). Part C of subtitle VI of Title 49 (49 U.S.C. § 33101 et seq.) authorizes the Secretary of Transportation to promulgate theft prevention (parts marking) standards. The parts marking regulations are set forth in 49 C.F.R. Part 541. The mandatory component identification requirement applies to certain high theft passenger car lines starting with model year 1987. In 1995, the theft prevention (parts marking) standard was expanded to include certain multipurpose passenger vehicles and certain non high theft lines beginning with model year 1997." OP is in Canada, so what do they say about it? My son and I went to look at a 70 Chevelle 10 years ago that was a reasonably priced roller. We were just about to pull the trigger when I noticed the VIN tag was destroyed by careless sanding on the dash. The owner acted like it was no big deal. We walked away.
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“Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan Press On! has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” ― Calvin Coolidge |
#43
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In the original post it appeared that you were considering this car for purchase and wanted advice, but I see now you are inquiring for someone else.
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The numbers your referring if I'm not mistaken are part or date codes and do not correlate to the vin number, perhaps on later models but not 60's or 70's. Which brings me back to your inquiry, tell your Brother in Law he should read this thread in its entirety and then consider the facts, not opinions. Some people think to get your Huggies in a bunch over a vin number is silly, you can bet your azz they wouldn't think it was silly if they were missing a car! Look at some of the comments here, If they weren't so stringent upon everyone about removing vin tags think of what it would do to our automotive hobby. There are many people without any moral obligation that would pass a questionable car along as it may cost them money if recognized, so why make it worse. The law is firm for a reason, it protects us all from the likes of scumbags that would prosper from deceit and also those who would argue on their behalf. I haven't even mentioned (thieves), the main reason it's a felony. Those who don't like that are prone to chit in their hats and some day unknowingly wear them. Frank
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Poncho Huggen, Gear Snatchen, Posi Piro. |
#44
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Jeff |
#45
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what about a vin id tag from a state.
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#46
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When a dash pad is replaced on a 1970-1974 MoPar E body, the VIN tag must be transferred to the new pad.
It's all about intent.
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1976 LeMans B09 Freeway Enforcer, 455/M40 Smokey 1977 Trans Am, 400/M21 Black/Gold Bandit. 44K actual miles 2017 Sierra SLT 1500 Z71 4X4 2019 Canyon SLT Crew 4X4 |
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#47
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That's a whole lot better than what my friend got with his 66 SS Chevelle. lol
His new VIN actual number characters didn't resemble a factory GM VIN , such as 24267xxxxxx for example. His new assigned VIN was just a mix of numbers and letters. Not actually "bad" on that one you pictured, just would indicate it was likely stolen in the past and tag removed/disposed of by the thief. |
#48
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On the former NCDubs.net forum it was discovered that a number of guys had swapped out better dashpads from junkyards and didn't swap their old VIN's over to the replacement dashpads. Most had already discarded their old dashes. Those could get a little messy somewhere down the road. The VIN's are also stamped largely and visibly on top of the cowl panels under the hood. But a crappy cop in a crappy mood , or a newbie trying to show his skills , could make a whole lot of trouble for someone in that position. I sold a few of those dashes shipped out of state , and left the VIN's on them. Effectively i was "removing the VIN tag" from those cars. GUILTY Did advise the customers to have magic elves swap their VIN tag over to the dashes before installing them into their car. Intent is a key factor. In a world with common sense. Problem is, not all agressors care about common sense. |
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#49
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I'd say the tag being upside down is a bad sign.
A: If there was no bad intent, there was stupidity .. of which there are probably plenty of other examples on the vehicle. B: If there WAS bad intent then not only is there criminality involved, there is stupid criminality involved ... which will probably be demonstrated in other areas on the vehicle. If the tag was right side up with correct rivets .. A: If there was no bad intent, then perhaps it shows more attention to detail in the other restoration work as well and it was just some thorough body work. B. If there WAS bad intent ... at least the person might have done other quality criminal work. |
#50
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1968 Chevrolet Spartan truck, on FB marketplace. Check out these tags.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...64375297457641
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be a simple...kinda man. |
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#51
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Notice that GM stamped the VIN on the wrong side of the tag originally!
__________________
1976 LeMans B09 Freeway Enforcer, 455/M40 Smokey 1977 Trans Am, 400/M21 Black/Gold Bandit. 44K actual miles 2017 Sierra SLT 1500 Z71 4X4 2019 Canyon SLT Crew 4X4 |
#52
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Seems like a good idea until it's time to sell.
If I saw that on an otherwise nice car, I'd offer pennies on the dollar at best. Same thing goes for any questionable VIN or any VIN tag that looks to be poorly reinstalled (pop rivets, etc.) When I buy a car that I intend to drive or put on the road in the future, it had better 1) have a clean title, and 2) the title better match the VIN and the car. I think I know enough now to look out for red flags, but many newer buyers/hobbyists don't. I don't want to deal with that issue and take the hit when it comes time for me to sell. Think about it - if you have two cars that are identical except one has an original untouched VIN and the other has a state issued tag, and they are both the same price? Which one would you pick? Which one would EVERYBODY pick? How much cheaper would the state VIN car need to be for you to choose that one over the car with no issues? That being said, if you have the original VIN to the car - and can prove it - what exactly is the crime in putting it back on with the correct rivets? If done properly, it is difficult/impossible to determine it's been done. I would bet everything I own that there is at least one person (likely many) on this site who owns a car where the VIN tag has been removed/replaced over the years before their ownership and they don't have a clue. Wasn't removing tags SOP when 'dipping' car bodies was to strip them was en vogue so they didn't dissolve? If the experts here can't tell, how the hell is anyone with the state police going to have a clue - especially when dealing with old cars. Specific exceptions exist in the law for repair - as has been posted - yet some people refuse to read and/or comprehend anything that goes against what they've been parroting for 50 years, and this argument comes up every six months as a result. Short answer to OP: check with a lawyer in your jurisdiction. |
#53
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Easiest answer here
1) Buy some of the special rivets
2) Turn the tag around so it's oriented correctly 3) Install the rivets 4) Stop talking about it. Just stop. End of issue. |
#54
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Would you buy a car from a dealer that did that? |
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