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  #101  
Old 11-29-2009, 04:47 PM
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Default Another 455 resurrected

APPLICATION
Year/Model: '65 Pontiac Catalina 2D Sedan

ENGINE
Block: '75 455 2 Bolt, Bored 0.030", zero decked, line honed
Crank: Eagle 104554210 standard cast, 0.000"/0.010", polished thrust
Rods: Pontiac
Pistons: Speed Pro ZL2359F30 Forged Pistons
Rings: Sealed Power ZE300K30
Rotating Assembly Balanced

LUBRICATION
Oil Pump: Melling M-54D-S
Oil Pump Style: Wet sump
Oil Pump Volume: Standard-volume
Oil Pump Pressure: High pressure

INDUCTION
Air Cleaner: Stock '65 Pontiac (modified)
Carburetor: Quadrajet 7042262 (modified)
Jets: 73
Primary Rods: 37
Secondary Rods: DA
Hanger: K
Intake: '68 Cast Iron

VALVETRAIN
Camshaft: Crane 969681 (Ram Air IV)
Duration at 0.050: 230/240
Duration Advertised: 308/320
Lift with Specified Rocker Arms: 0.469 int./0.469 exh. lift
Lobe Separation Angle: 113.5
Grind: 9794041
Installed Position: 4 degrees advanced
Rocker Arms: COMP Cams RP1451-16
Rocker Arm Ratio: 1.5:1
Rocker Arm Style: Roller Tip
Lifters: COMP Cams 852-16
Lifter Style: Hydraulic flat tappet
Timing Chain: Cloyes Gear 9-3112
Timing Chain Style: Double roller

FUEL SYSTEM
Fuel Pump: Carter GM6907
Fuel Line: 3/8 inch

CYLINDER HEADS
Type: Pontiac 6X-8
Porting: Bowl porting only
Flow Numbers: 226/180 at 0.500", 28" H2O
Valves: Stock 2.11"/1.66"
Valve Guides: Bronze

IGNITION
Distributor: Delco 1111078
Distributor Type: Points
Coil: Delco 1115134 (64-66 Pontiac)
Wires: Packard
Spark Plugs: AC Delco R45TS
Total Timing: 37 degrees

EXHAUST
Manifolds: R.A.R.E. Long Branch 2.5" Collector

OTHER SPECS
Static Compression Ratio: 9.25:1
Dynamic Compression Ratio: 6.28:1

DYNO RESULTS:
494 ft/lbs at 3600 rpm
395 hp at 4900 rpm

Built by: Tommy V. and Matt K.
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  #102  
Old 12-27-2009, 05:04 PM
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matt65 matt65 is offline
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Default 455 Pontiac in a chevy

Car runs 11.01 @ 118.4 with a 1.44 60ft
(driven 17mi to and from work several times a week and raced on 93 pump gas)

Block-.030 '73 455
Rods-eagle floating pin
Pistons-TRW bushed.
Crank-stock 4.210 -.010
Cam-Ultradyne Hyd flat tappet 239/248 @50 on a 110/106 .510 lift in and ex
Heads-KRE 310 cnc 85cc chambers (10.5 compression)
Rockers-1.5 proform
Intake-Performer RPM no portwork
Carb-proform 850 80/86 jets 4.5 powervalve
Crab spacer-1 inch open
Fuel pump-RobbMC 550hp mech with -8 feed sumped tank.
Waterpump-stock mech w march pulleys.
Fan-Flexalite 3300cfm

Trans-400 rev manual w/ 9 1/2 4000 stall converter

Rearend-Moser 12 bolt 3.73 gear spool
(has HnR anti roll, Wolfe Racecraft adj uppers)
Wheels-15x8 w/28x9 mickey slicks 15x4 front


  #103  
Old 03-21-2010, 08:52 AM
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Default

69 Firebird
Drive to MIR Budds Creek MD 1 1/2 hr. one way
10.93 @ 122

455 + .040
Stock block, crank, Ross pistons, Mahle rings and forged rods
Edelbrock 87cc heads
Victor intake 950 proform carb
Comp cams 264-270 roller cam, lifters and rockers 600 lift
T-400 trans and continental 4000 stall converter
12 bolt rear 3.73 gear
3735#'s with me in it.
Stock Power windows, brakes, antenna, Ac, tilt steering and deluxe interior.
Steve


Last edited by p4msi1; 03-21-2010 at 09:04 AM. Reason: forgot other stuff
  #104  
Old 03-26-2010, 01:15 PM
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BillyGoat BillyGoat is offline
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Location: Carnegie, PA 15106
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Default

My 455 was basically copied from a 455 engine that Cliff Ruggles built which made 455.4 HP and 522 ft lbs torque on a dyno. I rode in Cliff's Ventura right after he completed his engine when he still lived in Pgh and was totally impressed. (I believe that was in 2003) My engine seems just as strong even though I have never run my car at the track. The weak link of my car is the 8.2 rearend which I may upgrade someday. If I had sticky tires I think that I would break stuff.


1967 PONTIAC GTO

OWNER Bill Minsinger, Carnegie, PA 15106

ENGINE 1973 455 +.030”, 462 cu. in. (7.6 Litre), 9.8 : 1 Compression

HEADS/VALVES 1976 6X-4 Milled .020” (87 cc), 2.11/1.77 SSI Stainless Steel Valves,
Competition Springs, Ceramic Coated, Crossover Aluminum Filled,
Harland Sharp Roller Rocker Arms 1.65 Ratio (actual 1.72)

PISTONS /RODS TRW Forged, +.030”, Rods Resized with ARP Bolts

INTAKE Edelbrock Performer RPM, Ceramic Coated

CAMSHAFT Crower 60919 Improved Ram Air IV, 231/240 Duration, 539/539 Lift

CARBURETOR Modified 800 cfm Rochester Quadrajet

OIL SYSTEM High Output Pump, Hardened Pump Shaft, Remote Filter, 6 qt. Pan

IGNITION Calibrated HEI, Solid Metal Core Wires

TRANSMISSION 1967 Muncie 4 Speed, Hurst Shifter

EXHAUST Ceramic Coated Hooker Competition Headers with 3” S.S. Pipe and
Turbo Mufflers

REAR END GM 8.2 10 Bolt with 3.55 : 1 Gears and Eaton Posi Unit,

BRAKES Power Front Disk Conversion by Stainless Steel Brakes Corporation





  #105  
Old 05-16-2010, 10:01 AM
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Default

Stock appearing, Hyrdaulic Roller set up
1970 YS 400 .040 over 408 ci.
cleaned, magnaflux inspected, shotpeened, oil galley holes tapped, deburred, distributor gear oil added, aligned honed
Rotating assembly balanced, stock crank deburred and oil passages chamfered.
Rods: Eagle H-beam w/ press fit Ross lightweight pins
Speedpro pistons and rings, Clevite 77 bearings
9 keyway roller timing gear & chain
Camshaft: Ultradyne 284/288 roller (12HR+6)
230/234 @ .050, LSA 112, .0530 I/E lift
Lifters Comp 857, Comp 995 springs
#13 heads milled, ported for high end street/strip, SS valves 1.77 exhaust 2.11 intake
Cylinder compression (P.S.I.) 175-179
Dynamic compression 10.9:1
Stock intake, 7040264 Q-jet built with Cliff's rebuild kit, HEI, Long Branch Manifolds, Ramair Restorations 2 1/2" exhaust w/ X-over & Goerlich mufflers, TH400, 3.55 posi
91 pump gas
I havent had it to the track yet but should run in the 12's. Plan to get up to Bandimeer this summer and will post back then.

Built by Greg Merrick - Merrick Motors - Longmont, CO

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  #106  
Old 05-25-2010, 12:11 AM
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Default

Swapped RPM intake for Northwind and went 10.87 @ 121 on 04/18

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt65 View Post
Car runs 11.01 @ 118.4 with a 1.44 60ft
(driven 17mi to and from work several times a week and raced on 93 pump gas)

Block-.030 '73 455
Rods-eagle floating pin
Pistons-TRW bushed.
Crank-stock 4.210 -.010
Cam-Ultradyne Hyd flat tappet 239/248 @50 on a 110/106 .510 lift in and ex
Heads-KRE 310 cnc 85cc chambers (10.5 compression)
Rockers-1.5 proform
Intake-Performer RPM no portwork
Carb-proform 850 80/86 jets 4.5 powervalve
Crab spacer-1 inch open
Fuel pump-RobbMC 550hp mech with -8 feed sumped tank.
Waterpump-stock mech w march pulleys.
Fan-Flexalite 3300cfm

Trans-400 rev manual w/ 9 1/2 4000 stall converter

Rearend-Moser 12 bolt 3.73 gear spool
(has HnR anti roll, Wolfe Racecraft adj uppers)
Wheels-15x8 w/28x9 mickey slicks 15x4 front


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2 '65 Tempest hardtop.
  #107  
Old 07-08-2010, 06:00 PM
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Default

* 1974 Pontiac 2-bolt 455 + .030
* Balanced assembly
* Stock rods
* Polished stock crank
* Edelbrock 72cc (bored to 76cc) aluminum heads w/ Ferrea valved
* Comp XE274 cam (Duration @ .050" Lift: 230/236)
* KB Forged 15cc dished pistons
* PRW 1.5 roller rockers
* ARP head bolts
* Cloyes True Roller cam
* Edelbrock Performer RPM intake (port matched)
* RARE OS Exhaust Manifolds
* Holley 80508 750cfm carb w/ vacuum secondaries & electric choke
* Carter fuel pump
* Melling 60psi oil pump w/ collector & hardened drive shaft
* Fel-Pro gaskets
* Clevite 77 bearings
* Autolite 3924 spark plugs
* GM Pontiac aluminum valve covers
* Hughes GM25 torque converter

Ignition

* MSD Blaster 2 coil
* Accel Distributor with Pertronix ignitor II
* Taylor spark plug wires
* AC Delco spark plugs

Thanks to:
* Weston Machine in Parsippany, NJ for the boring, balancing, and piston pressing
* Butler Performance for the head & intake work


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461ci, Edelbrock 72cc heads, KB 15cc dished pistons, comp xe274, PRW 1.5 roller rockers, Performer RPM intake, Holley 80508 750cfm, RARE oversized manifolds, Pypes X-pipe Exhaust
  #108  
Old 07-10-2010, 03:45 AM
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Default Street combo

IAII block
4.350" bore
4.250" stroke
505ci
Butler race ported heads. 315cfm
Ross pistons, 4340 forged Eagle rods and crank.
Comp hyd roller. 299/303 244/248 .630 lift,
112lsa installed at 108.5 ICL, Extreme Marine lobes
Morel hyd roller lifters, smith bros. .116 pushrods
10.5:1 comp.
MSD ignition, 36* timing locked,
Digital 6 box
2" Dougs headers, 3" torque tech exhaust
NOS plate system, (just in case the need arises)
Performer RPM intake and 850 holley (for now)
Will be installing larger single plane intake and EFI this winter. Along with upgrading the entire fuel sytem.

All in front of........
Full billet 2004r trans, 9.5" 3200 Edge converter, 3.73 gear 12 bolt, in a 68 GTO.

As of now we have about 300 miles on the new combo and are liking it alot!!




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I don't own a pontiac, but I like them

Pump gas, N/A, no dominator, no spool, no big tires, no electric fuel pump,
no electric water pump, full interior. 496ci
6.27 @ 109 / 9.82 @ 134
Best of 1.36 60ft. Gettin it done on 9 inches.
  #109  
Old 09-20-2010, 10:55 PM
deric deric is offline
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Default Dave's 67 GTO

My car is finally on the road after a 5 year ground up restification. The engine was build for torq. I patterned it after an engine from Butler Performance.
69 400 Block
Eagle stroker kit from Summit. (H-beam 6.8 Chevy BB Rods. Chevy SB 400 pistons) 4.165X4.25
Elelbrock Performer 87cc Heads.
Dougs Headers
Comp Extreme Energy 268.
Harland Sharp 1.7 Roller Rockers.
Edelbrock Torquer EFI intake
Edelbrock 1000CFM Throttle body
Mass-Flo Wiring harness
Ford A9L Computer
Ford Lightning 90mm MAF
Home build distributor using a Pontiac points distributor and Ford TFI internals.
Rick's EFI fuel Tank.
Diablo Chip
3.55 posi w/Kessle 600 .64 OD 5 speed.
Dyno first tune produced 370Hp and 430Tq at the back tires.

Please note that the value covers have been replaced with a nicer ribbed set. I'll post a copy of the dyno sheet once I get my scanner fixed.

Dave
In Idaho
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Dave
In Idaho
  #110  
Old 09-28-2010, 08:28 PM
deric deric is offline
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Default Dave's 67 GTO

Finally got the scanner fixed and the file down to a managable size. I'm more than pleased with the results of my effort to build a stout street motor. We should be able to get close to the 400hp level with the next tune. The plan is to drive it to now and after 500 to 600 mile retune. Try a little leaner around 13 to 1 and a degree or more of timing.
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In Idaho
  #111  
Old 09-30-2010, 03:54 AM
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Thanks to Wayne at Schicantek Performance in Milwaukee for machine work, assembly, and useful advise. Thanks to Cliff Ruggles for the build advise, and giving me the confidence to pursue this type of build as my first rebuilt (top to bottom) engine. This whole project revolves around the 670 heads I purchased at Pontiac Heaven in 2006 (if I remember correctly). They were heavily ported, new valves, springs, guides, etc......ready to bolt on and go......for $300!
I programmed and milled the chambers to unshroud the valve and add the scallop thus increasing the chamber size from 72 cc to 80/81 cc. So I'm running around 11.1 compression............on 92/93 pump gas! Idles with 11/12" of vacuum......I checked all summer since the initial start up for any detonation. Only ran into it once when I got some bad gas from a lower end gas station. Just sticking to the tier 1 stations now. I just found out on Tuesday that I've been running way more timing than was needed. So I even have more of a cushion now! Was at 34 deg total. Took it to the track and found out it loves 26-28! Never had a hint of detonation on the plugs.

1971 455 2 bolt +.030
KB forged flat tops, Mahle rings
-removed sharp edges on pistons, head chambers and polished both to help eliminate detonation
PPR ultra light I beams
main studs, 3/4 windage tray,
"N" crank, radiused, bull nosed, (5# lighter than stock)
neutral ballanced, PRW ballancer, TCI flexplate
Crower 60245 hydraulic flat cam
248/253 @ .050 112 lobe sep.
cam advanced 2 deg. for heavy car (106 CL)
standard Rhodes lifters
1.52 PRW stainless roller rockers
Tomahawk HEI dizzy, Taylor spiro-pro wires
RPM -gasket matched, separated H20 X-over
800 cfm Q-jet, (recipe #3)
1 3/4 Doug's headers, Pypes 3" w/ X
1970 3.55 12 bolt, Summit cover with cap locks
Strange tapered "C" clip eliminators with axles
Quarter Master drive shaft, loop
Mad Bomber T400 H.D. trans
PTC 10" nitrus converter, 3000 stall

So far, with a 4400 pound long roof, best time is 12.655 @ 107.1.

That's with a hesitation at the line from the carb.

I just wanted to give the info on my build to show that if you are careful, you can run higher compression with iron heads.

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  #112  
Old 10-25-2010, 11:04 AM
tooski tooski is offline
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Default 68 Firebird

68 Firebird 'beater'
69 GTO 400 .040 over
RAIII heads #48 unported
Comp Cams 265 DEH - 211N-221E @ .050, 442I 465E lift
HS 1.5 rockers
Performer RPM
Holley 3310 69P 73S 8.5PV
HEI
Headers
TH350 w/shift kit
stock converter
12 bolt 3.07 posi
Timing issues
Runs like crazy
No 1/4 times

  #113  
Old 10-28-2010, 05:25 PM
beargfr beargfr is offline
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Default My Street Engine Combo

1969 "YS" 400 block, squared, align honed, bored +0.035
Eagle 4.250 stroker and 6.800" H-beam rods - actual displacement: 461
ICON IC938 pistons, additional dish cut to yield 22 cc's in the pistons, deck height 0.015
Pistons cut, rotating assembly balanced by Jim Lehart at CVMS
#722 Cast Iron Ram Air IV heads, mildly ported, heat riser passages plugged w/aluminum
Static compression: 9.46:1
ARP head bolts
Comp Cams solid roller: 236/242 @ .050, 110 LSA, .377/.381 lobe lift, "B" lobe profile, installed @ 106
Comp Cams "Endurex" lifters, pushrods, titanium retainers, 11-degree superlocks, stud girdle, billet aluminum 9-way timing set
Block lifter bores tapped and oil restrictors installed
Scorpion 1.65 aluminum roller rockers
Howard's valve springs
Melling M54DS oil pump
Nitemare Performance oil pump shaft, laser-cut oil pump plate, laser-cut cam plate, and rear main seal.
Milodon 9-quart kick-out pan, windage tray, pump pick-up, main stud kit (partial), and aluminum water pump.
RobbMc starter, fuel-pump, regulator, and filter
Factory iron intake, gasket matched
Service replacement 455SD Qjet (17054910) - #75 primary jets w/.045 rods, BV secondary rods
Doug Thorley D-567 1-7/8" primary headers, JetHot Extreme Sterling coated
PRW SFI-rated flex plate and Pioneer SFI-rated balancer.
ProForm HEI
Engine built by: Yours Truly, and son


Links:
Dyno sheet (air was 85 degress, 95% humidty - couldn't get it lean enough in the crappy air)
(It matched reasonably well with Engine Analyzer 3.2's predictions)

Videos:
Engine running in the car
Running with exhaust dumps open

Web site:
Overall photo-record of the car build, to date




Bear


Last edited by beargfr; 10-28-2010 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Added a photo
  #114  
Old 02-11-2011, 03:25 PM
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mike389 mike389 is offline
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Default new Q-Jet

Engine: 1966 389 rebuilt March 2001[.030+, 7L4 heads milled .060", Melling #26204 cam, 214/224 @ .050", .443/.465" lift, 112 LSA; Comp Cam roller tip rockers, poly locks, moly rings, double roller timing chain, Melling oil pump, Edelbrock Performer and 1406 Edelbrock carb; engine fully balanced.]


  #115  
Old 02-12-2011, 12:32 AM
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Default 69 GTO Resto

Going in Single Family Owned 69 GTO Frame-Off Resto
  • Original Block, Heads, Crank, Intake
  • #62 Heads SD Performance 250cfm CNC ported, FP#1016 gaskets
  • SD Performance HydRoller Cam, 224/230@.050 .560 lift
  • PRW Roller Rockers, JP Roller 9 keyway chain (all from SD)
  • Tomahawk Windage Tray from Pacific Performance
  • Portmatched Iron Intake by me
  • RAIV Service Replacement Carb - Cliff Ruggles Modded
  • Melling 60lb pump with hardened shaft
  • +.040 TRWs Dished 12cc by Jim Butler Racing, Moly Speed Pro Rings, Press Fit Pins
  • Zero Decked Block
  • Honed Mains
  • Eagle H-Beams
  • Stock Distributor Rebuilt by Dave's Small Body HEI conversions w/composite gear
  • RARE Ram Air Exh manifolds w 2.5" outlets

All Shortblock Machining, Engine Assembly, Pushrod Selection & Dyno done at Janke's Machine Shop, Dietrich Rd., San Antonio, TX

Best Pull @ 42 adv (using Pro Products dampener, I believe these are 4deg off...so 38)
Torque Avg from 3000-4500rpm 486lb-ft; Peak 494.5 @ 3900rpm
HP Avg from 4500-5800rpm 438HP; Peak 451.6 @ 5600 rpm


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  #116  
Old 02-14-2011, 07:25 PM
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Default Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinjunTribe View Post
Going in Single Family Owned 69 GTO Frame-Off Resto

All Shortblock Machining, Engine Assembly, Pushrod Selection & Dyno done at Janke's Machine Shop, Dietrich Rd., San Antonio, TX

Best Pull @ 42 adv (using Pro Products dampener, I believe these are 4deg off...so 38)
Torque Avg from 3000-4500rpm 486lb-ft; Peak 494.5 @ 3900rpm
HP Avg from 4500-5800rpm 438HP; Peak 451.6 @ 5600 rpm



VIDEO LINK for above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNa431ktMzA

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  #117  
Old 03-20-2011, 11:22 PM
421sd 421sd is offline
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Default 455

455 block bored .030 over/arp studs in mains
stock crank,ppr rods, speed pro forged pistons
speed pro moly rings, melling 60 psi pump
oil clearances .0025, .018 ring gap,
ultradyne 288/296, comp double roller timing chain, cam set straight up, comp magnum lifters, felpro head gaskets with copper spray, jbp 250 cfm heads with arp bolts, 9.5:1 compression, comp push rods 9.1", prw 1.65 roller rockers, edelbrock rpm intake, prw balancer, hays flywheel, internally balanced, 750 cfm hollet vacum secondaries, hooker comp headers,

runs cool, good oil pressure, driven all the time, good power, no drag strip runs yet, hopefully in low 12s in 68 gto

  #118  
Old 05-25-2011, 12:51 AM
dholman dholman is offline
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Default

While I freshen the Ram Air 111 engine in my 70 Formula, I put in this 455, and it runs real nice:

1971 .030 over, 462 cubes.
TRW domed pistons with file-fit rings,
Pontiac factory crank,
Forged Pontiac Super Duty rods w/ ARP's peened rebushed resized new pins and locks, Melling pump and shaft
Comp Cams timing set
Comp Cams XE- 274H - 10 cam & lifters, (Duration at 0.050 is 230/236, Lift 488/491, Lobe separation angle 110 degrees, Centreline 106 degrees)
Precision Engine Products valve springs, good to .550 lift, 10 degree super locks and chrome moly retainers,
# 66 1971 heads, 114 cc, no port work, hardened seats from factory, for 1/2" ARP studs which were then shortened by .250" to fit, Manley Stainless 2.11&1.77 valves, viton seals,
Comp magnum roller rockers
Holley 80508-1 HP 750 carb,
Holley Street Dominator manifold,
NOS balancer and SFI flexplate

Turbo 400 with a shift kit
Factory 12 bolt

Engine was built by Dean Roderick - DeanBilt engines.

  #119  
Old 06-11-2011, 10:39 PM
goatwgn goatwgn is offline
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Default

'73 Pontiac 455 bored .030. (462 ci)[LIST=1][*]Polished stock crank[*]Speed pro forged pistons[*]RPM forged rods[*]Melling high volume oil pump with Milodon pickup[*]Milodon 7 qt oil pan[*]1 peice oil pan gasket[*]Graphite rear main seal[*]Stock 4x heads with 2.11 intake,1.77 exhaust stainless steel valves[*]Valve pockets on heads opened up for 1.77 exhaust valves, opening on top of center "crossover" port in rh head filled to mount older intake.[*]1971 GM 1 cast iron intake with Quadrajet[*]Melling RA IV camshaft advanced 4 degrees[*]Sealed Power lifters, Comp cam pushrods[*]Comp cams 1.52 roller tipped rockers[*]PPR valley pan[*]Evans coolant pump[*]Ram Air Specialties 2.5 inch manifolds for 64-67 chassis into dual 2.5 inch exhaust with H pipe-Gray ceramic coated[*]75 Pontiac HEI with recurve kit, adj vacuum advance[*]Compression at 9.5 to 1.[*]Machine work, balancing, etc. done by CVMS. Engine runs very strong on the street in my '66 Tempest wagon. Runs cool with AC on and has good oil pressure. has a little lope to the idle, but also returns about 17 mpg on the highway (Also has a 2004r with billet parts in it that helps with the highway rpms) (3.42 gear) this combo helps maintain a "stock" underhood appearance as well. Can also run any gas from the pump I like in it.

  #120  
Old 07-19-2011, 12:13 AM
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torqjunki torqjunki is offline
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Default 464 10:1 street motor

464ci
PPR rotating assy with cast crank, billet rods, KB forged dished pistons
Edelbrock round port heads with home clean-up and good valve job
10:1 compression
PPR Tomahawk HFT TC-02 cam with 236/244@.050 duration/ Johnson lifters
1.65 PPR steel roller rockers/comp push rods
Professional Products Tomahawk equivalent intake port matched, plenum cleanup.
Holley 750cfm DP with air horn removed
HEI ignition
Dougs 1 7/8"headers
3" pipes to 2.5" Magnaflow mufflers, 2.5" tailpipes(not installed yet)
No dyno or wide band tuning yet
Car is 71 Firebird with t-350 and 2.73 gear
255/45/17 up front, 285/40/17 in rear
Performance first time out....best of 7.73 1/8th mile on the street tires with 1.83 60ft. 92.72 MPH
91 Deg temp..60% humidity...sea level

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The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




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