[rcorrigan5]

Here's the rundown on a '68 Olds 4-4-2 convertible I completed in June 2007. It was not a frame-off but very close to it - we had to lift the back part of the body off of the frame 3-4 inches to install new fuel lines - did this by loosening the frame-to-body bolts and then snugging them down again after the fuel lines were in place. I'm not a paint or body person, nor am I a mechanic. But I did get to work side-by-side with a mechanic that I would consider to be one of the best, and in his fully equipped shop. I learned a lot from him and it allowed me to do a lot of the work (especially the dirty work) myself. This car is not a trailer queen (i.e., perfect concourse), but it is in the upper tier of restorations.

Body work and paint: $15K. This included completely replacing the driver side quarter, removing rust at the bottom edge of the trunk and fabricating new metal to replicate original, and replacing some rust in the passenger side wheel opening, along with prep and paint. Paint was PPG with a clear-coat finish.

Mechanical: $17K. This included rebuilding the original engine, transmission, rear end, and front suspension, and replacing the gas tank, as well as installation of all the parts.

Parts: $10K. This included procuring original parts with date codes that complemented the build date of the car, that were not with the project, such as the starter, carburetor, alternator, distributor, coil, voltage regulator, radiator shroud, radiator, new door and rear side panels, repair of factory gauges and tach, new tires, and so forth.

Unassigned value: Tons of my time cleaning and painting parts and brackets, painting the underneath of the car, making my own gas tank pad. I also had access to tools such as a buffer, bead blaster, solvent tank, someone who could weld, and was extremely thankful for all of that - it saved a lot of money.

End Result: The car recently (July 2011) won "Best of Class" at the 2001 Olds Nationals in Reno, in its first national meet, which I understand is pretty rare. We can talk about judging all day long and how they do it. From my perspective, they knocked off some points for frivolous items but then missed things that I thought I would get gigged for. In the end, it was a wash. And, in any case, the end result told me that this car did indeed have an authentic, top notch restoration. This show was 4 years and about 1600 miles after we completed the car's restoration.

Total Sum: $42K plus lots of my time. Hope this gives you an idea of the cost of what I consider a first class restoration. I've heard stories of this type of restoration costing as much as $20K more than what I spent.

Accordingly, $20K seems definitely on the low side to me for what I interpret what you say is going to be done. If you go with that restorer, I'd surely keep a very close eye on what is being done to your car to ensure you are getting what you want.

Hope this helps.

Randy C.

[Rob B]

Originally Posted by rcorrigan5

Here's the rundown on a '68 Olds 4-4-2 convertible I completed in June 2007. It was not a frame-off but very close to it - we had to lift the back part of the body off of the frame 3-4 inches to install new fuel lines - did this by loosening the frame-to-body bolts and then snugging them down again after the fuel lines were in place. I'm not a paint or body person, nor am I a mechanic. But I did get to work side-by-side with a mechanic that I would consider to be one of the best, and in his fully equipped shop. I learned a lot from him and it allowed me to do a lot of the work (especially the dirty work) myself. This car is not a trailer queen (i.e., perfect concourse), but it is in the upper tier of restorations.

Body work and paint: $15K. This included completely replacing the driver side quarter, removing rust at the bottom edge of the trunk and fabricating new metal to replicate original, and replacing some rust in the passenger side wheel opening, along with prep and paint. Paint was PPG with a clear-coat finish.

Mechanical: $17K. This included rebuilding the original engine, transmission, rear end, and front suspension, and replacing the gas tank, as well as installation of all the parts.

Parts: $10K. This included procuring original parts with date codes that complemented the build date of the car, that were not with the project, such as the starter, carburetor, alternator, distributor, coil, voltage regulator, radiator shroud, radiator, new door and rear side panels, repair of factory gauges and tach, new tires, and so forth.

Unassigned value: Tons of my time cleaning and painting parts and brackets, painting the underneath of the car, making my own gas tank pad. I also had access to tools such as a buffer, bead blaster, solvent tank, someone who could weld, and was extremely thankful for all of that - it saved a lot of money.

End Result: The car recently (July 2011) won "Best of Class" at the 2001 Olds Nationals in Reno, in its first national meet, which I understand is pretty rare. We can talk about judging all day long and how they do it. From my perspective, they knocked off some points for frivolous items but then missed things that I thought I would get gigged for. In the end, it was a wash. And, in any case, the end result told me that this car did indeed have an authentic, top notch restoration. This show was 4 years and about 1600 miles after we completed the car's restoration.

Total Sum: $42K plus lots of my time. Hope this gives you an idea of the cost of what I consider a first class restoration. I've heard stories of this type of restoration costing as much as $20K more than what I spent.

Accordingly, $20K seems definitely on the low side to me for what I interpret what you say is going to be done. If you go with that restorer, I'd surely keep a very close eye on what is being done to your car to ensure you are getting what you want.

Hope this helps.

Randy C.

Something to think about, not trying to be a butt or anything like that.
You have 15K in the body and 17K in mechanicals plus another 10K in misc parts for your car.
Like Baron mentioned, he could have done the paint and body work for close to half or a heavy third less of what you spent with a one man shop that has lower overhead or minimal overhead than maybe your guy. Thats not saying your guy is better than Baron so it justifies the extra $$$ spent. There are many qualified people who could do that work for alot less and maybe even better, and remember the original question clearly stated ALL MATERIALS AND PARTS WOULD BE COVERED by the the owner not the shop. So depending on what paint and supplies were used, you could clearly knock another $1000-$1500 out of your 15k for paint materials. What about sheet metal? Whatever you spent in that can come out of your 15K also. Now that 15K could be down in the 12K or less range.
Same thing applies for the 17K in mechanicals. How much was spent in machine work, engine, trans, differential parts, gas lines, tank, etc etc.
When its all said and done, I bet you come in around or even under that 20K mark on true labor without any parts in that calculation.

[richard sargent]

If it is the guy in Wa. I know, he takes a lot of short cuts and the car comes out a really nice driver.

To a novice it looks like a concourse resto frame off, to an expert, why did you put your hand on just about every piece and not do it right?

Really it comes to quality and that is never cheap!

10k to 15k for body-paint for quality is just the start.

[Andre]

I don't want to get long winded or step on any toes, but here is how it can be accomplished.
As we all know there is a certain amount of parts cleaning. bead blasting etc. that can be done by a semi skilled "laborer" for a cost about of 1/3-1/5 of shop hourly charge. Of course this depends on what part of the country you are in, and if you can find hard working locals/immigrants with the skill sets who want to work.

And secondly, a shop doing volume is going to be able to get a considerable discount on all reproduction/replacement parts, yet have the right to charge the customer the full retail, so there could be a considerable profit made there also.
A shop may also charge a finder fee on original parts that are purchased to assist the restoration.

The third and important factor is shop overhead. If the equipment, building etc are all owned and been in the business for a long time, that keeps the overhead way down, and likewise shop rates can be kept low.

Fourthly- if all the in house subs are paid by the job, and not hourly, the restoration shop can control internal costs significantly.

Restoration work like many other professions often have very skilled craftsmen, who to their own demise are poor business men.

The final word- always charge what the market will bear, or quickly go out of business.

So, after saying all that, a $20K labor charge may actually equate to a $80K level restoration that will cost you $60K after parts, materials etc.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by richard sargent

If it is the guy in Wa. I know, he takes a lot of short cuts and the car comes out a really nice driver.

To a novice it looks like a concourse resto frame off, to an expert, why did you put your hand on just about every piece and not do it right?

Really it comes to quality and that is never cheap!

10k to 15k for body-paint for quality is just the start.

I was also told the guy in Washington could do the cars in 2 months I guess it's possible if you have a huge crew but then there would be a big payroll and for 20k I just don't see it. I guess I could do a car (Convertible) for 20k plus parts (engine drive train under the parts category) if the car had ZERO rust and and all sheet metal was not "mangled". I have no overhead except for a "grunt helper" at times. Built the shop 12 years ago on my property and can pretty much take one of these 70-71's apart and put together faster than most people. Alot of time is consumed doing something that your not familiar with. 30k plus parts (drive train under parts) is more realistic at least for me..at least with a car that is not totally rusted out and all there. I do this because I enjoy it and am not trying to become a millionaire. I have other income from business property rentals. Point is, might be someone out there that would do a car for 1 DOLLAR in labor plus parts if he/she loves it enough to keep busy with and something they love to do......no, I wont do it for a dollar! although I do love doing this. Especially enjoy stripping a car and purchasing and installing all those nice pretty new parts towards the end of the job!

[bigborehunter]

Been following along since thread started and noticed an ad in Autabuy for a 1970 GTO in blue which states it had a complete restoration yet the selling price is $30,000. I'm wondering if it is old resto that was done in the 1990s when it was still possible to do that much work affordably. After reading these comments, I'm thinking it had to be an older resto or the car was actually very clean and just had what we'd call thorough detailing or maybe a sympathetic restoration. IE replace what looks worn out and what needs to be done otherwise, leave it alone. Just two more ways it could've been done all in for $20,000.

[north]

I have the ultimate solution to the high cost of resto's:

I don't keep any bills! What you don't remember can't eat your guts up!

[MescaBug]

Originally Posted by north

I have the ultimate solution to the high cost of resto's:

I don't keep any bills! What you don't remember can't eat your guts up!

Keep them out of reach of the wifey. She'll remember, they always remember

[Andre]

Two months is really fast.. Yes, that would take a lot of guys working on the car to make that kind of time. He must have access to cheap labor (Ie semi skilled at $12/hour)

There always seems to be a hold up when a key part is missing, and time is spent waiting for it. Maybe he has figured a solution to this.

I would have to see one of the finished products to pass my final judgement.

Or... this is just all BS.

[steve v]

There must be a good reason he's not using the $20k resto shop for his other Judges. Remind him of that fact.

Forrest you know what is takes to restore these cars, you've done enough of them & had threads on many that you've restored here on the forums.......they show your skill and dedication to your work.

There's no need to let him fill out your quoted prices in the estimate. If he thinks $20k in labor gets a quality frame off resto on a 70 Judge then tell him he should have no trouble finding someone else to do it & wish him luck.

[richard sargent]

Yes he has done several frame offs in a period of 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 but he cuts a lot of corners.

He does most of the work himself, pretty amazing, but it you know what to look for it falls apart, compared to full blown resto.

But his prices are very reasonable, so you get a good value compared to the price.

[Forrest]

Originally Posted by richard sargent

Yes he has done several frame offs in a period of 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 but he cuts a lot of corners.

He does most of the work himself, pretty amazing, but it you know what to look for it falls apart, compared to full blown resto.

But his prices are very reasonable, so you get a good value compared to the price.

Should also mention if he were to get a badly rusted car and rebuilt it using ALL aftermarket parts e.g. hood, fenders, rad. support, valances, quarters, floors, trunklid, now you can even get a firewall! And of course the interior can be mostly bought all new. Not much left to restore as far as original sheetmetal or interior. So all the hard work is avoided more or less and getting 'er done is alot faster also.. there's your "aftermarket car" done in 2 months for 20k labor and 30k+ parts so then the parts price tag is be pretty darn high, the day has come where labor is much less than parts

[marshallbeach]

If the guy is doing this for cash, in his own private pole barn, no EPA looking over his shoulder, and not filing income taxes. Maybe he has insurance through his wife, maybe another full time job. No debt, no overhead. This is $20,000 bring home, probably $30,000-$40,000 gross by an EPA regulated, honest shop. $30,000-$40,000 for labor only, no materials, parts, mechanical repairs or chasing down parts.
Plus, maybe he's a hack.

[richard sargent]

Not a hack, he is really fast, does it at his house.

Has done at least 7 Judges frame off. Cuts a lot corners and to novice it looks awesome, but if you took detailed pictures and posted, this board would pick it apart.But..................

He doesn't ask stupid prices for his work or cars, so in the end it's a good deal. It's not a screaming bargain like this guy is pretending to be getting.

Probally in the beginning he thought so and later he moved on because he figured it out.

Think about it, he finds the one guy who is fast, cheap, reliable, with quality and moves on????????????????

Take fast, cheap, reliable and quality you can't get them all is resto

I think if someone wanted to pay a quality price he would do a high quality resto. JMHO

[richard sargent]

My paint guy works out of his house, has low low overhead, does what he says he will do, completes the job on time.

On a high end paint job he is about 1/3 less than a shop. Strip to bare metal, remove doors, deck lid, entire nose, do the jams, under the hood, inside the trunk, patch panels for fenders, fix wheel well where they beat the inner lip in for wider tires, 1/4 panel patch, reassemble to a show quality align and fit, cut and buff to show quality finish 10k. PPG product, three coats of clear, excellent metal worker with very little bondo.

Right now he is working on my 73 SD, more metal work, trunk floor pan, replace both 1/4's, rear tail panel, rust around front and rear windows, one frame rail, rebush hinges, 15k. same procedure. I furnish the chrome, polishing for the trim,
any parts which incudes glass, hinges, 1/4 panels, tail panel, frame rail, trunk floor, deck lid, pay for the car to stripped

Fast, relaible, quality, reasonable, but not cheap!

[70ra455]

Didn't Jason from Pa. advertise to all of us $20,000 labor plus parts for a frame off #1 car?

Forrest if you do quotes/bids and NOT per hour just keep sending the money projects I'd like to talk to you sometime about what it would take to get my car done. I'm thinking about it and it deserves to come off the frame (I believe it did back in 1995 as well) and be totally done up ... right!

My cell is 908-208-7778 and my email is phildilernia@yahoo.com

Whenever you have the time ...

[Keith Vrabec]

Maybe consider how many hours it takes to do a car.

For a #1 expect 1000-2000 hr labor at $50 an hour expect $50-$100K

Parts

engine-$3K includes machine work
Paint package $3-5k
Glass $1k
Interior $2k includes all the doo dads like knobs and new seat belts weatherstripping
Chassis $3k bushings ball joints tie rods tires brakes
Body parts-new sheetmetal, vinyl top, bumpers to chrome varies by car
Stainless restoration expect a grand for a basic car.
AC add a grand
pot metal varies by car
rare options-cha ching
you do the math

At $20k someone's cutting corners somewhere.

All depends on what you think #1 is.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by 70ra455

Didn't Jason from Pa. advertise to all of us $20,000 labor plus parts for a frame off #1 car?

He might have / probably did, since you mention it.
But he supposedly fell off a wagon - or jumped on a wagon - whatever is right term for taking a few guys to the cleaners.

He was doing good things for a while though.
Damnd shame about it going to he// like that.

Most cars - typical cars with some damage and some rust and some missing/destroyed key items - if you got a 20k labor package - by the time all is said and done sitting on new tires - you'll be around 40k at minimum. Some closer to 60k.

How much did the car cost you to buy it ?
Whats it worth now ?

Old tired looking drivers with fresh engines are making a comeback !

[Jerry H.]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I've also been paint/body tech most of my life.
Heavier towards the paint side.
And i've wrenched everything since i was a kid.

I could have done that $25k part on Milt's car for $8-10k and still felt fat as a hog. lol
And Black is my specialty. Just for another example.
That shop got their piece of the pie absolutely.

In these days and times, sometimes you have to make certain concessions to work at home.
The rat race of society in general, the beauracy and red tape of working under commission for a dealership or shop and the constant battle to get paid right from bad estimates. Not to mention majority of production shops are struggling around here to keep techs busy all week. For some guys, life is better to work from a home shop for $20 an hour average - cash on table.

But most guys in that position, don't want full frame off restos.
I know i don't --- at the moment.

I don't think i would include the rebuilding/internal overhaul of engine - trans - differential in the 20k. And i know the seat recovering and headliner/vinyl top/vert top wouldn't be included either.

Otherwise, its pretty do-able for a home-shop tech with the ability.
For around that figure.

I'd just want to pay for the work on my car and the guy doing the work.
I wouldn't want to be paying towards office furniture, or the people who sit at the desks wearing ties and dresses, or the people who cut their checks, or the ones who sign their checks. F them. lol sorry

Just to clarify: The shop that did the paint and body work on Milt's Judge was a converted 3 car garage in the painter's back yard. Two man shop, only him and his step son. There was a ton, and I mean a ton of body and metal work done on the car. I honestly don't think you could have made ANY money doing that particular car for 8-10 grand.

And as someone else has posted, It makes a lot of difference in what is considered a #1 car. What most folks consider #1, I consider a #2 or 2-. As you know, it takes times to get the fit of all the body parts as they should be. They were not very good from the factory. If you left them like that on a restored car, it would be totally unacceptable. Same with paint. Original quality paint doesn't cut it on a restored car. A car out of the paint booth that too the untrained eye looks perfect still needs 40 or more hours of sanding and buffing to get right.

Here is the costs of my last project. I bought it and it had recently underwent a frame off restoration, but not of the quality that I desired. You can follow what we did to the car here:http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=551411. No $ for paint, No $ for internal engine work, no $ for interior or trim work. I paid $10 hour for a helper. Total added restoration costs, including parts and supplies, $11,500.00. It is NOT cheap to work on these cars.!

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by Keith Vrabec

Maybe consider how many hours it takes to do a car.

For a #1 expect 1000-2000 hr labor at $50 an hour expect $50-$100K

Pa
At $20k someone's cutting corners somewhere.

All depends on what you think #1 is.

We average @ 2000 man/hrs. per car...usually @ $35k in parts and paint job. Difference between a #1 and a #2 is @ DOUBLE!!!