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Old 12-31-2022, 04:09 PM
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Default Anybody here into pulsed MIG?

For as much as I’ve enjoyed leaving MIG welding behind me in favor of TIG, I have to say I’m intrigued with pulsed MIG. It appears that many automakers are requiring their new vehicles be repaired with more specific techniques than ever, including pulsed, double pulsed, CuSi3, and even pulsed CuSi3. The MIG brazing requirement appears to be an accepted alternative when you can’t repair via the original Squeeze Resistance Spot Welds.

Anyways, I was wondering how it might fit into our type of work or if anybody uses it for that. Does pulsed MIG with its lower temps more closely resemble the good properties of TIG (“softer” less-brittle welds)? Regarding the ease of MIG brazing, does that open things up to it being abused and used everywhere in repairs (including high stress/flex places where it might not belong)?

I still dislike MIG for the whole “dirty” factor compared to TIG, but the sale prices from HTP on what always seems to be regarded as one of the premium Pulse MIG units always makes me think twice lol.

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Old 01-01-2023, 04:15 AM
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I've always wanted one, for no other reason than I don't have one. Both my MIGs are still transformer style ... been wanting to try a fancy inverter style. I went to a pulsed inverter TIG a couple years ago.

My personal opinion on brazing of all types is that it's more than strong enough for any body panel, or uni-body panel in any situation. And to be honest for most other applications as well. Few hobbyist projects require the full 70kpsi+ strength of alloy steel. I think typical CuSi rod is 60kpsi?

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Old 01-06-2023, 12:37 AM
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Haha yeah, same here. Would love to have one just to try it.

I really enjoy pulsed TIG with body panels. There are so many pulse settings to tweak that you can really dial it in to your own liking/preference and keep so much heat out. The pulse on those MIG machines must also help considerably.

I’m waiting to finally try the CK rotary amperage control when it gets here this week. Not the newest tech by any means but it should be better for out of position welding compared to my simple on/off switch or getting creative with the pedal while laying down.

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Old 01-06-2023, 08:06 AM
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Haven't tried the CK yet, but I've tried about three different other types. Never found one that worked to my liking. Either awkward to use, or not enough fine control. I've got a button type for my Lincoln inverter TIG but it only produces about four discrete amp settings and you have scroll through them .. but it is easy to use, others have more fine control but are cumbersome to use.

I wish someone made a pedal that sticks to your foot or something ... most of the time I need a finger tip control I'm laying down or kneeling down anyway.

Miller had a nice unit I used on my old SyncroWave but I burned out two main boards before I realized that having the control wire taped to the torch cable fed enough EMI back to the board to burn it out. And having a separate small cable running to the torch dangling around was just not for me.

By now you'd think they'd have mind control I'd even go for one you put in your mouth and squeezed for amp control.

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Old 01-07-2023, 12:12 AM
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It’s funny, I’ve read so much on them and one reoccurring request that seems to come up is a mouth control. Makes sense lol.

I keep wanting to tackle my own design and have the pin out schematic for my plug, but that’s typical me. I’ll get so caught up in that and everything that actually needs welded will go on hold for however long. I heard emi was a big issue, I haven’t looked inside a cord yet to see how they insulate or what they use.

Hopefully the CK one will work ok. They used to make a small rubber wheel version that got good reviews for feel but supposedly wouldn’t hold up long (due to heat I think). The one I have is the “tank track” looking one. I’m hoping I can hold it in a way that a finger is on one side of the track while my thumb is on the other side, kind of like a push-pull move. Similar to how you can make precise dial/knob adjustments when grabbing one normally vs adjusting it with just a finger.

Somebody does make one with a pressure activated button, but again, it supposedly doesn’t hold up long enough for regular use and is nearly $300. http://www.6061.com/tigbutton.htm

I should be able to test mine out tomorrow… I’m hoping for the best!

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Old 01-07-2023, 04:46 AM
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I've got the TIG Button installed now ... it still works, but no it doesn't hold up. It's kind of melted and gotten mushy. And it doesn't have nearly enough fine control, it's ok for turning the torch on and off. I think it has four steps, not enough, but more and it would be a pain to use.

Problem with a mouth type would be getting it approved for safe use ... considering how much time it would spend in your mouth. Not to mention it would be hard to get something approved for an electric device in your mouth I think it could be done pretty easily with an Arduino ... and I could 3d print out the water proof mouth cover out of flexible TPU.

Could probably be done pretty easy with a little load cell and an Arduino ... get to work

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Old 01-07-2023, 06:58 PM
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That’s awesome you can 3d print that flexible stuff!

I’d love to mess with some sort of control one of these days. I have a feeling I will because I just can’t leave well enough alone!

Hopefully I can experiment with the rotary control later tonight. I guess I could always get into 4T mode with my simple on/off remote button and slope settings.

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Old 01-08-2023, 05:23 AM
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What kind of TIG are you using? I don't think my Lincoln has 2T/4T settings.

Four 50kg load cells (about the size of a quarter) and an Arduino breakout board ... $9 on Amazon.

Let me know how it goes with the control, that is one of the models I looked at when I was shopping.

If I had it to do over again I think I would have bought one of those Everlast Chinese Inverter TIGs that do pretty much anything you can imagine. Since I'm retired it's not like I depend on my machines for income so reliability is not as much of an issue. Instead I sold my 25 year old Syncrowave 250 for enough to buy a brand new Lincoln 200 amp TIG.

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Old 01-09-2023, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dataway View Post
What kind of TIG are you using? I don't think my Lincoln has 2T/4T settings.

Four 50kg load cells (about the size of a quarter) and an Arduino breakout board ... $9 on Amazon.

Let me know how it goes with the control, that is one of the models I looked at when I was shopping.

If I had it to do over again I think I would have bought one of those Everlast Chinese Inverter TIGs that do pretty much anything you can imagine. Since I'm retired it's not like I depend on my machines for income so reliability is not as much of an issue. Instead I sold my 25 year old Syncrowave 250 for enough to buy a brand new Lincoln 200 amp TIG.
I’ve already begun the reverse engineering lol. I don’t know why I expected to see a rotary instead of linear. It’s cool to see how they used the slider itself to open/close the on/off trigger independent of the potentiometer itself. Trying to keep myself off the Mouser and Digikey websites. I found a cool looking linear with a spring return that would be interesting. It would be nice to have a slide that you could push against as you slide your thumb up/down the torch and have it return back to “off”. Seems like you could have more precision instead of your thumb on some slider just “floating” out in space.

If I could sort out the “simple” stuff I could work my way up to your audrino “premium” model haha. Spectra Symbol Softpot or Thinpot membranes.

I have an import IGBT (Primeweld TIG225x) and an HTP Invertig 221. I haven’t had too much time on the HTP yet. I only decided to upgrade to the HTP because a buddy from work was always on me to sell him the Primeweld and I wanted digital instead of analog control over my pulse functions (I use pulse way too often lol). Of course as soon as I got the new TIG my buddy changed his mind so here I sit with 2 until I find a new home for it.
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Old 01-09-2023, 05:43 AM
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Looks like a pretty robust design. Put a VOM on that slider and see what the upper and lower limits are ... although that information may be in the welders schematic ... just wonder what kind of signal the welders are looking for. Was that unit specific to your welder? Wish welders would get on board with a standardized remote accessory spec.

A few years ago I bought a little linear pot with the rod just like that photo with the intent of trying to build my own .. never started that project.

Weird that the big welding companies haven't put more thought into this ... jeez, the pedal is decades old technology and tons of TIG is no longer done on the bench.

Spring resistance would be my choice too ... but I guess they have to keep in mind pro welders that are doing long welds, many hours and probably want to just set it and forget it for a few minutes. But hey ... a pedal has a spring return ... that's the feel we are all used to.

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Old 01-09-2023, 12:02 PM
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I know both of mine use 10k ohm potentiometers. It would be so much easier if they all shared a basic design and you could just adapt the ends.

I have the original Primeweld pedal I can take apart to see what they did. I replaced it right from the start with a Nova pedal. My HTP thankfully came with an SSC pedal from the start.

Here’s a pin out schematic from each one of those. Both use 10k ohm and a 7 pin plug, but neither use all 7 pins from the looks of it.

They’ll all share a 3 pin connection to the potentiometer regardless of the manufacturer I’d guess. The HTP appears to use the low/min potentiometer line to also feed the trigger on/off loop. Would the top (pins 1 and 6) just be a loop through a 220k ohm resistor to maybe tell the unit there is a device connected?

The other brand just appears to run 3 wires to the pot and 2 to the trigger on/off. They short pin 6 to 7 in the plug so maybe that is their “sense” connection?
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Old 01-09-2023, 01:40 PM
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This one might be for the Lincoln SW Tig 200, not entirely sure.
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Old 01-09-2023, 02:08 PM
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I'm no expert but it appears you are correct on all counts. Looks like the actual input to the control board is a voltage, rather than a resistance value. Makes sense, would make it easier to design being that you wouldn't have to design around possible changes in resistance in the cabling/connections ... it would just change the position of the pedal for a given amperage a little bit ... rather than losing amperage range because the whole loop changes resistance.

I also think it may be done that way for some kind of fail safe, if anything goes wrong in the cable ... short or broken wire, the system would go zero amps instead of full power. Although ... I guess if you shorted the MAX wire to the pot wiper it might get ugly. But I'm sure they have designed in protection from that sort of thing on the control board.

It's probably all digital on the control board, with the voltage from the pedal going through a D/A converter.

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Old 01-16-2023, 02:43 AM
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I was thinking recently ... you know what would work for me ... a basic trigger mechanism. Like the throttle control on an RC car. I guess it varies by personal style, but the way I hold a TIG torch I could use a trigger type amp control I think no problem.

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Old 01-17-2023, 05:37 PM
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Yeah that would be a great idea. I think anything that enables you to or assists you in maintaining a good stable grip would be ideal.

I’ve spent some time with the CK rotary. I’m fairly happy with it so far. It is really smooth and precise. I’m still trying to find a preferred place to mount it. The key for me at least is to have it located somewhere central to my grip. If I’m reaching too far forward or back on the torch, I end up introducing a wobble to the arc as my ability to hold the torch steady suffers. I also wish the throw of the 0%-100% range was slightly shorter. Again, the more I reach to control it the more my stability suffers.

I routinely find myself checking out the P3 America Precision Sensors website. I’m thinking about giving this a try:
https://p3america.com/lmcr8-series/

11mm/.43” travel
Upper temp range 221°F
Spring return

I keep envisioning something where I can slide my thumb up/down the side of the torch and have the tip of my thumb just push the shaft up and have it follow my thumb back down. To me, having your thumb or finger up on something raised off the torch just promotes a “floating” feeling. Can you tell or estimate where 50% or 75% is when your thumb is just floating up on something up in the air? If my thumb could retain contact with the torch I may have a “feel” of how far my thumb actually travels as it slides over the torch body. You could even graduate it with some miniature sized dots you could “feel” as you slide over them at say 25/50/75%. Not sure if any of that makes sense at all! Lol

I started searching for these things with a goal of .5” of travel, so that one above isn’t too far off.

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Old 01-17-2023, 06:17 PM
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I think ... the problem we are having is that most of these controls are designed for professionals running ten inch beads etc. that only touch the control now and then so they want to be able to dial in an amperage at leave it there.

My average bead is about two inches long so holding a spring loaded control in the right place for that amount of time would be no problem.

Heck ... give me a MIG gun with an amp control trigger and a TIG working end and I could go to town. I'm not doing a lot of fancy cup rocking etc.

If I can take time off from my half dozen other projects I might work up a model of what I think would fit my style.

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Old 01-18-2023, 01:09 AM
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Good point about the spring tension, that finally sunk in. I kept thinking in my head that the spring pressure would be negligible. The spec sheet calls it out at <4N, so I guess like 14oz. Maybe I should get the no spring version and add my own lighter duty spring if I want one so badly.

Trying to find double shielded 18/4 cable at a reasonable price. Maybe 20/22ga?

Have to order the 7 pin Amphenol plug I need. Only 6 pins are used, but I think I can do the sense loop with a 220k resistor right inside the plug. No need running that and the extra conductors up to the torch.

A simple NC micro switch should round out the parts list. Maybe I will end up doing this after all. Lol

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Old 01-18-2023, 12:03 PM
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Yep shielded wire is stupid expensive ... found that out during my DIY CNC project ... for the moment I'm using conventional multi-conductor with clamp on ferrite cores. I've seen some controls that use pretty skinny cable, 20ga would be good for sure.

Of course adjustable spring tension would be the **** I'd opt for the heavier tension for me .... gloves on and all that, I'd want to feel the pressure.

When it gets to that point ... let me know, perhaps I can 3d print up some parts.

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Old 01-27-2023, 06:01 PM
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Finally have all the parts for this. Maybe I’ll do a test this weekend. I did some looking into the plug that came with the CK rotary, they did just solder the 220K resistor to the pins as I had hoped. No need to run that all the way up to the control and put even more interference into the conductor mix.

I think I also figured out the control end of the rotary a little more. I believe my HTP and many of the Lincoln’s have near identical “requirements” as far as controls go, so it’s just a matter of swapping on the right plug to attach to your brand of welder. The Lincoln’s spec out capacitors that supposedly help to limit interference and that explains the pair of them visible in my inside control pics above. There seems to be a consensus that those caps basically do very little if anything and somewhere Lincoln even mentions omitting them if you use an aftermarket controller. Apparently my HTP doesn’t care if they’re on the board or not either.

The Amphenol brand plugs are honestly a work of art. Very impressive for a $9 part. I’m still finalizing some designs for the mounting and spring return. I’ll most likely find myself taking you up on that 3D printing offer Johnny. Thanks!

The trigger idea sounds great. Having a good grip with the controls in a familiar and comfortable position really makes sense.

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Old 01-27-2023, 06:54 PM
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Could probably use a couple of clamp on ferrite cores to suppress interference easy enough.

Small items like this print up pretty quickly so multiple iterations isn't a problem. I'd imagine PETG or even solid printed TPU would work.

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