Don't be offended Goathead or Goatman

[ERIC17621]

There seams to be a lot of quibbling over the looks of the new GTO. Some people love it, and some people hate it. Goathead and Goatman feel personally offended by the new GTO believing that it personally insults the heritage of their cars. As a fellow owner of a 65 GTO there are just a few things I'd like to address

1: The new GTO doesn't look the part. It may bare some resemblance to the grand-prix/grand am, but the original GTO was the same body as a lemans and tempest. Neither one of those two cars were particularly exciting or extracted gut wrenching emotions from any one. Although we have come to love the body styles of our classics, in 1965, the average motorist could not distinguish your car from a "economy" tempest unless they were close enough to see the badges.

2: It doesn't have enough power. I have to respectfully disagree. It may not be the most powerful, or quickest car on the road, but Our GTO never officially enjoyed that title either. Pontiac did create the muscle car, but after others quickly caught on, there were an abundance of faster "hemi" cars that could smoke any GTO ever produces (stock trim to stock trim). Even a Chevy Nova could be modified to beat a GTO. (very similar to the STi argument)

3. It is too expensive to justify the car. Just an increase or the original sticker of a 65 GTO (around $3600 plus or minus) based on inflation would put the price at about $27,000, that does not even include the massive budget that goes into R&D and better, longer lasting technology these days. Not to mention this GTO gets an honest 350 HP (not with the liberal measurements used in '65) while passing all smog laws. These are the same laws that Slowly and Painfully killed our beloved cars in the 70's (anyone want a 220 hp 455!!!) In addition, this car Stops as well as goes! I know you feel as much break fade after spirited driving as I do! Just the fact that they have been able to recreate an honest Muscle car at an average price is fantastic. This is an entire car unlike the 64's that were simply a big engine in a mid sized car that already existed, and did not get the benefit of hardly ANY other upgrades.

Basically, this should not be blasphemy or insulting to any GTO owner. It could benefit cosmetically from a hood scoop since that was a difinitive staple of the GTO line. Other then that, it is a great car that is as true to The Great One as it could possibly be. If there are any more hurt feelings or insulted GTO owners, maybe there are some classic Impala owners out there that you can relate to (now they got wronged)!! at any rate, 2005 I'll be in line to get next year's model (just for the sake of a 65/05 set) I need to replace my dailey driver anyways! Best to everyone, sorry for the long post!

Tripower: The big bad car and three little [gas] pigs!

[ERIC17621]

There seams to be a lot of quibbling over the looks of the new GTO. Some people love it, and some people hate it. Goathead and Goatman feel personally offended by the new GTO believing that it personally insults the heritage of their cars. As a fellow owner of a 65 GTO there are just a few things I'd like to address

1: The new GTO doesn't look the part. It may bare some resemblance to the grand-prix/grand am, but the original GTO was the same body as a lemans and tempest. Neither one of those two cars were particularly exciting or extracted gut wrenching emotions from any one. Although we have come to love the body styles of our classics, in 1965, the average motorist could not distinguish your car from a "economy" tempest unless they were close enough to see the badges.

2: It doesn't have enough power. I have to respectfully disagree. It may not be the most powerful, or quickest car on the road, but Our GTO never officially enjoyed that title either. Pontiac did create the muscle car, but after others quickly caught on, there were an abundance of faster "hemi" cars that could smoke any GTO ever produces (stock trim to stock trim). Even a Chevy Nova could be modified to beat a GTO. (very similar to the STi argument)

3. It is too expensive to justify the car. Just an increase or the original sticker of a 65 GTO (around $3600 plus or minus) based on inflation would put the price at about $27,000, that does not even include the massive budget that goes into R&D and better, longer lasting technology these days. Not to mention this GTO gets an honest 350 HP (not with the liberal measurements used in '65) while passing all smog laws. These are the same laws that Slowly and Painfully killed our beloved cars in the 70's (anyone want a 220 hp 455!!!) In addition, this car Stops as well as goes! I know you feel as much break fade after spirited driving as I do! Just the fact that they have been able to recreate an honest Muscle car at an average price is fantastic. This is an entire car unlike the 64's that were simply a big engine in a mid sized car that already existed, and did not get the benefit of hardly ANY other upgrades.

Basically, this should not be blasphemy or insulting to any GTO owner. It could benefit cosmetically from a hood scoop since that was a difinitive staple of the GTO line. Other then that, it is a great car that is as true to The Great One as it could possibly be. If there are any more hurt feelings or insulted GTO owners, maybe there are some classic Impala owners out there that you can relate to (now they got wronged)!! at any rate, 2005 I'll be in line to get next year's model (just for the sake of a 65/05 set) I need to replace my dailey driver anyways! Best to everyone, sorry for the long post!

Tripower: The big bad car and three little [gas] pigs!

[pontiac6269]

I would have to agree with you. I think it looks more like a Chevy Cavalier with a Grand Prix grill. Are these suppose to be at dealerships yet? No dealers have them around here. You are right about the Impala people. I frequent a couple Impala SS boards for the 94-96 Impala and Caprice. Most of them hate the new Impala(call it the wimpala).

62 Grand Prix
400,Turbo400
2.73 Gears,4040lbs
13.866 @ 100.58

69 GT0 (still in the garage)

[Jeffzilla]

Damn good post.

[ctgross]

"Are these suppose to be at dealerships yet?"

Many Ca. dealers have them. Look on E-bay, several have them listed for "buy it now" at $10,000 above msrp I'm not gonna bash the car in any way, just state my opinion, I woulden't pay sticker price at this stage of conception, much less an additional ten grand to
learn I f%#*ed up!

CT Gross
------------------------------------------

"It's never too late to have a happy childhood"!

66 Blue GTO
http://community.webtv.net/ctgross/GTO

[Goathead]

Eric, this is, and allways has been, the knife throug the heart on this issue. The looks suck, and do not resemble the "stand out in the parking lot" cosmetics allways attributed to a GTO, even the '64. Therefore, the name change of the Monero (an Australian car with a Chevy engine and a riped off Pontiac name), will never be seen as a "true GTO". What are you gonna say when you win/loose a race? My Chevy engine beat your Chevy engine?

I have never had a problem with it's performance, or it's handeling, or it's price. Basically, all I have said is that it "SUCKS" from a cosmetic standpoint, and that's why I will not own one in it's present state.

ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS

This is only my pre "Fast and Furious, takes 4 minutes to run the 1/4 mile" opinion.



http://www.dannys65gto.com

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/dannys65gto.html

[Goathead]

Is that too vague?



http://www.dannys65gto.com

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/dannys65gto.html

[Goathead]

Eric, this is, and allways has been, the knife throug the heart on this issue. The looks suck, and do not resemble the "stand out in the parking lot" cosmetics allways attributed to a GTO, even the '64. Therefore, the name change of the Monero (an Australian car with a Chevy engine and a riped off Pontiac name), will never be seen as a "true GTO". What are you gonna say when you win/loose a race? My Chevy engine beat your Chevy engine?

I have never had a problem with it's performance, or it's handeling, or it's price. Basically, all I have said is that it "SUCKS" from a cosmetic standpoint, and that's why I will not own one in it's present state.

ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS
ONCE AGAIN, THE LOOKS OF THIS CAR SUCKS



http://www.dannys65gto.com

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/dannys65gto.html

[Mr_GTO]

Again, looks are subjective. I personally think the 64 GTO looked like ass until the 65 came about.

And you know what? The 04 will roast the 64 in every performance category.

And oh, Dannyboy, GM Powertrain makes motors now, not Chevy, not Olds, Not Caddy, not Pontiac, Not Buick, not Hummer, Not Saab, not Saturn. GM POWERTRAIN. That isn't subjective, that is the fact.

[Goathead]

And oh, Mr_GTOboy, it's looks still SUCK...

How about we put a '04 "generic GM" stateside Holden next to a '64 GTO and see which one draws the most attention?



http://www.dannys65gto.com

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/dannys65gto.html

[Lloyd-TX]

it's appearance indeed STINKS! It needs mucho more retro styling cues than the metric engine badge, LOL!

It should NOT have been badged as a GTO, period!!!

If - and this is really big if - GM decides to market it long enough, I believe Lutz will lean on the stylists HARD to fix the looks. I'll bet the performance gets even better, as well! However, given GM's habitual giving up on new models just as they get their shi! together on it, the new "GTO" will prolly be gone by 2006 or 2007.

What a shame

Later,
"455HO" Lloyd (Void-TX)

1972 Formula 455HO; Lucerne Blue; 12.96 @ 104 MPH @ the '03 PSN's
1970 GTO 455HO; Palomino Copper
1972 GTO 455HO; Sundance Orange

[Mr_GTO]

LOL, I think the old one will get more looks no doubt. But I also think given the chance to drive both, more will choose the '04.

Lloyd, retro only goes so far. Remember, the best looking GTO, based on survyes, was not the 64. The best looking new GTO won't be the '04.

The cars production will be all new and styling will be all new in 2007 model year. And yes, the plans are already in place for building/retrofitting plants for that production.

[Goathead]

Mr_GTOboy, that is the first thing we have agreed with, bravo....



http://www.dannys65gto.com

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/dannys65gto.html

[Snowbound]

Posted by Goathead:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The looks suck, and do not resemble the "stand out in the parking lot" cosmetics allways attributed to a GTO, even the '64. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The '04 will not stand out any more or less than the '64 did. The '64 didn't stand out against a lot full of Tempests, Skylarks, Chevelles, G.P's, Impalas or most of the Fords and Chryslers. They all looked pretty similar, just as the cars of today do. I was a die hard Buick guy and owned a '70 GS 455 convert, and guess what? Only the Buick guys recognized it. It stood out to them. The Grand National cars stood out to me even though they looked just like all the other boxey cars of the mid 80's. Some hated the GN's too.

The '64 did stand out to the Pontiac crowd however, just as the '04 will stand out to the modern car enthusiast. I'll agree that the look is rather dull. That goes for just about any other car on the road. That's how the look evolved and it will continue to evolve. Hopefully GM and the others will hear the public opinion and head in the right direction.

Brian

1967 GTO project in the works. 2000 GTP family hauler.

[dancolkate]

If you don't like the looks. Don't buy one. The 60's are GONE FOREVER. Get over it. GM ain't gonna build a 2004 GTO that looks like a like a 69 Judge. The 04 may not appeal to the FEW members of old Pontiac hobby, but will almost surely be a HIT with the masses. This car is what a corporation has decided to build, market, and sell. IMHO, I think they've made some EXCELLENT business decisions. Getting a V8 RWD 2 door from AU that was already designed etc and putting it on our streets.

Many have questioned the sucess of this car. I'll bet a case of Sam Adams that there won't be any 0% financing, rebates, or any other significant incentives offered on the 04 GTO (or subsequent model years).

This car will definately sell and because of what it IS....NOT because of what the GTO WAS.

Two other thoughts.

Has anyone ever driven a BMW M5? A friend of mine has a 1988. He also has a 1988 BMW 535. Both are black 4 doors with manual transmissions. Even though they look the same except for badges and wheels, the M5 is miles and miles away from the 535 in every performance catagory. What's the point? The "masses" want a car that excels in all the performance catagories, is comfortable, and somewhat affordable. GM has NAILED it.

Lastly, the 04 interior is very very nice

[Nickv]

It's a fine looking car.
















"Everyone is entitled to be stupid sometimes, but you're abusing that privilege"

[This message was edited by Nickv on December 27, 2003 at 06:56 PM.]

[Nickv]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The '04 will not stand out any more or less than the '64 did. The '64 didn't stand out against a lot full of Tempests, Skylarks, Chevelles, G.P's, Impalas or most of the Fords and Chryslers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually your quite wrong. The 64 GTO was very unique in it's styling compared to what the other 3 guys were offering at the time. 64 Olds 442, Buick Skylark GS, Malibu SS.









"Everyone is entitled to be stupid sometimes, but you're abusing that privilege"

[ERIC17621]

Well I certainly did not expect to change anyones pervious opinion of the GTO. Looks are subjective, and if you don't like them, you probably never will. The 64 GTO started a revolution of putting muscle in an otherwise average vehicle. That revolution died with the strict smog laws, and the gas shortage in the 70's. Other then a few vehicles out there (M5, STi, Evo to name a few) who is doing that these days. Once again, Pontiac started in a completely new direction. They shoehorned a V-8 engine into a midsize platform, cleverly descized as other mid size coupe. They gave us true rear wheel drive, ample power, and a resonable price. I personally like the looks, and I am sure that if a 2004 survives for the next 40 years, you will have your stand out parking lot looks when compared to the 2044 models. Thanks Lutz, GM may not be dead after all!

Tripower: The big bad car and three little [gas] pigs!

[Goathead]

And the '04 does not, so why rip off the name and heritage, that's the point....



http://www.dannys65gto.com

http://kurtspontiac.homestead.com/dannys65gto.html

[Mr_GTO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goathead:
And the '04 does not, so why rip off the name and heritage, that's the point....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a return to a 2dr RWD coup that GM has been missing that can actually compete with not only domestic cars, but many foreign cars.